Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

This may be an objective in peacetime, but not in times of crisis or war, but for the United States, even in peacetime, it is not their objective:

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2019/dod/2019f35jsf.pdf?ver=2020-01-30-115432-173 page 29


25 per month => 300/year

If they can't achieve their peacetime goal, chances are they won't achieve their wartime goal.

Do we know if this also translates into more sorties? Or the same sortie, but more flying time?

'Cause you have the option of flying for an hour per sortie or two with the F-35.

Something interesting here:
In a speech delivered on September 21, 2022, General Mark Kelly stated that the average fighter pilot received just 6.8 hours of flying time per month for a total of 81.6 hours of flying time in 2021.

The article indicates there are deeper problems in the USAF. They seem to be taking the Soviet route for some reason. So it's unclear if it's an F-35 problem alone.
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Finally in 2019 the performance of the F-35 A was 216 h by year largely superior to 160 hour of the moment

Accelerated training requirements perhaps. The USAF was training everybody at the time. Plus the jets were brand new.

And then, not building these jets to one standard meant some jets wore out quicker than newer ones.

Can we say the first set of standardized jets will only come in 2026?
 
Do we know if this also translates into more sorties? Or the same sortie, but more flying time?

'Cause you have the option of flying for an hour per sortie or two with the F-35.

Something interesting here:
In a speech delivered on September 21, 2022, General Mark Kelly stated that the average fighter pilot received just 6.8 hours of flying time per month for a total of 81.6 hours of flying time in 2021.

The article indicates there are deeper problems in the USAF. They seem to be taking the Soviet route for some reason. So it's unclear if it's an F-35 problem alone.
View attachment 31626
what make me tear is the diffrence between 2017 and 2021 : -20% considering that you can understand why USAF has a recruitment problem.
 
what make me tear is the diffrence between 2017 and 2021 : -20% considering that you can understand why USAF has a recruitment problem.

Yeah, there is a problem.

So it all points towards an organization problem, not a jet problem.

They seem to be channeling money towards procurement instead of operations. I guess the idea is a wartime draft will take care of manpower requirements as long as they have enough operation capabilities where it actually counts, ie Alaska and the overseas.

Large air forces are centered around a small group of elites who need to do the most important tasks and the rest are free to be mediocre. So I guess that's how the USAF is being run today.

So for India that's 6-9 squadrons. For the USAF it could be about 16 squadrons. And the rest of the squadrons don't need as much capability, they just need to do as they are told, so they get less resources for training.
 
So it all points towards an organization problem, not a jet problem.
No that's worse :
from that document :
"The current pilot shortage and operational limitations of the F-35B raise serious concerns about the aircraft’s effectiveness in high threat A2AD environments. Technological advancements in expeditionary unmanned systems provide a better solution for the Marine Corps when operating in these environments. A reduction in the number of TACAIR squadrons and an increase in the number of expeditionary UAS squadrons is required in order for the Marine Corps to remain competitive in future conflicts and meet the requirements of Future Force 2030."
ANd in the UK :
 
From the very same document that your chart come from (Oct 18, 2022)

Unlike maintenance manning, the pilot shortage continues to plague the service. In March 2017, Lieutenant General Gina M. Grosso, Air Force Deputy Chief of Staff for Manpower, Personnel, and Services, testified that at the end of FY 2016, the Air Force had a shortfall of 1,555 pilots. Of that total, the Air Force was short 1,211 fighter pilots: 873 Active and 338 from the Active Reserve Component (ARC).

Even with the temporary surge in retention caused by COVID-19, the Total Force shortfall is 1,650: 650 Active and 1,000 ARC.

The Air Force graduated 1,200 pilots in FY 2018, added 1,279 in FY 2019, and projected that 1,480 would graduate in 2020, but the impact of COVID-19 was such that only 1,263 received their wings. Another 1,381 graduated in FY 2021, and the Air Force estimated that the number would be similar for FY 2022.

Those projected numbers rely on a very high annual graduation rate of approximately 94 percent of the candidates that enter flight school during any given year. According to the Air Force, the graduation rates for the past four years were 98 percent in 2018, 94 percent in 2019, 85 percent in 2020 (COVID-19), and 95.5 percent in 2021. The vast majority of those who washed out from flight school in 2021 were eliminated for health, discipline, or other reasons not specifically related to performance; only 0.27 percent were eliminated based on performance.

Throughout the pilot shortage, the Air Force has done an excellent job of emphasizing operational manning instead of placing experienced fighter pilots at staffs and schools, but the currency and qualifications of the pilots in operational units are at least as important as manning levels. Although the quality of sorties is admittedly subjective, a healthy rate of three sorties a week and flying hours averaging more than 200 hours a year have been established as “sufficient” over more than six decades of fighter pilot training.

In the words of General Bill Creech, “Higher sortie rates mean increased proficiency for our combat aircrews,”

and given the right number of sorties and quality flight time, it takes seven years beyond mission qualification in a fighter for an individual to maximize his potential as a fighter pilot.

COVID-19’s impact on flying hours hit the Air Force as it was beginning to recover from an 18-year drought in training for combat with a near-peer competitor. Flying hours and sortie rates across all fighter platforms fell to historic lows as the average line combat mission-ready fighter pilot received less than 1.4 sorties a week and 131 hours of flying time per year.74


Those numbers increased only marginally in 2021 to 1.5 sorties a week and 133.3 hours of flight time per year, not much above the all-time lows experienced the preceding year. That equates to roughly two-thirds the number of sorties required to meet the minimum sortie threshold to qualify pilots as combat mission capable throughout the Combat Air Force (CAF).


Those numbers are so low in a high-performance fighter that pilot competence levels drop to the point where even excellent pilots begin to question their execution of very basic tasks and where the execution of complex mission tasks can become overwhelming.75


In a speech delivered on September 21, 2022, General Mark Kelly stated that the average fighter pilot received just 6.8 hours of flying time per month for a total of 81.6 hours of flying time in 2021.76

No matter which data point is selected, the numbers reflect an Air Force that would struggle in a fight with a regional competitor and founder in a war with a peer adversary.
 
That is to the point :
"
Because of the pilot shortage, actual unit manning levels in fighter squadrons are below peacetime requirements (if only slightly), which obviously is not enough to meet the significantly increased demands and the tempo required for combat operations.

The service has already moved the majority of pilots who were in staff or other non-flying billets back to the cockpit in an effort to relieve the manning shortfall. Thus, the only way units can meet wartime manning requirements is by pulling pilots from other “donor” squadrons. The complications that this involves are significant and call into question the idea that the portions of the 55 fighter squadrons that are unable to deploy immediately in a crisis could be combined to create more combat power. The vast majority of aircraft and aircrew that are left would be used for homeland defense and to train replacement pilots or to replace aircraft that are lost through combat attrition.
"
 
No that's worse :
from that document :
"The current pilot shortage and operational limitations of the F-35B raise serious concerns about the aircraft’s effectiveness in high threat A2AD environments. Technological advancements in expeditionary unmanned systems provide a better solution for the Marine Corps when operating in these environments. A reduction in the number of TACAIR squadrons and an increase in the number of expeditionary UAS squadrons is required in order for the Marine Corps to remain competitive in future conflicts and meet the requirements of Future Force 2030."
ANd in the UK :

Pilot shortage is a training problem and operational limitations are a certification problem. They are not real jet-related problems.

And this training problem seems limited to the F-35B. They have a different regimen for training than land-based pilots.
 
That is to the point :
"
Because of the pilot shortage, actual unit manning levels in fighter squadrons are below peacetime requirements (if only slightly), which obviously is not enough to meet the significantly increased demands and the tempo required for combat operations.

The service has already moved the majority of pilots who were in staff or other non-flying billets back to the cockpit in an effort to relieve the manning shortfall. Thus, the only way units can meet wartime manning requirements is by pulling pilots from other “donor” squadrons. The complications that this involves are significant and call into question the idea that the portions of the 55 fighter squadrons that are unable to deploy immediately in a crisis could be combined to create more combat power. The vast majority of aircraft and aircrew that are left would be used for homeland defense and to train replacement pilots or to replace aircraft that are lost through combat attrition.
"

This is a USAF problem, not a jet problem.

They are facing issues with the T-38, 'cause of which they are unable to train enough pilots. Its replacement, the T-7, is late, IOC expected in 2027, so it will provide sufficient training only in 2030+.

And they don't seem to have enough budget to keep all their jets flying. You will notice that it's not just the F-35, but all fighter jets with dropping flying hours.

The USAF is aging, absorbing more and more money every year into maintenance, and they have multiple R&D projects ongoing, F-35, NGAD, B-21, FVL etc. So we could start seeing a correction from 2030 onwards when R&D will switch to procurement, and older jets finally get retirement. The US Congress is also busy trying to stop the USAF from retiring older jets. The first target was the A-10. Then F-22. And now the F-15E.

In fact, if the USAF is showing interest in retiring F-15Es, then it shows their confidence in the F-35.

It's also possible that they are focusing on some black projects we have no idea about. After all, the US Space Force wasn't created only to maintain satellites. My money's on missile defense.

Basically their training and budgetry problems are separate from the F-35.
 
Pilot shortage is a training problem and operational limitations are a certification problem. They are not real jet-related problems.

And this training problem seems limited to the F-35B. They have a different regimen for training than land-based pilots.
What is jet related is the "operational limitation" of the jet clearly said in the f-35B report.
 
What is jet related is the "operational limitation" of the jet clearly said in the f-35B report.

Operational limitation means you can perform the action, but you are not allowed to. So it's typically an RoE problem or a certification problem. Not being able to fire a weapon before target identification is an RoE problem, for example.

A jet problem would be, example, they can't keep the radar turned on for too long 'cause of cooling issues. Or they can't turn on all the electronics at once 'cause they don't have enough electrical power. Or they don't have enough engine thrust. These are technical issues. But to get around these problems, you would impose operational limits that are much more restrictive than necessary.

But, in this case, there are many certification problems. Quite a bit of the F-35's capabilities are not certified and unusable even if they can risk using it, so the jets are less capable than they'd like. For example, the F-35A has lightning issues, but B and C have also been restricted. Some jets have vibration issues, so that means even the ones without it are restricted. They could also be dealing with stringent G limits, speed/acceleration limits, takeoff/landing limits, more maintenance checks etc due to the engine.

And now, the Pentagon doesn't want to take deliveries without TR-3 being ready, so that means intake of new aircraft has been restricted. Maybe the aircraft works, but the Pentagon wants it certified before they take deliveries. It's the customer's prerogative even if the jet is ready for delivery.

So, as and when the retrofits are certified, related operational limitations will be lifted.
 
And now, the Pentagon doesn't want to take deliveries without TR-3 being ready, so that means intake of new aircraft has been restricted. Maybe the aircraft works, but the Pentagon wants it certified before they take deliveries. It's the customer's prerogative even if the jet is ready for delivery.
The reason they won't accept delivery of the F-35 with TR3 is because the TR3 software isn't working properly, which has delayed the integration of the Block 3F with TR3. As a result, the aircraft are not even able to carry out acceptance tests.

So you could say that it's just a certification problem and that it's not serious, but I say to myself that these aircraft are as unusable as a computer without an operating system: if they can't carry out acceptance tests, do you think we can send them into combat?
 
Going by the standard of 6th gen fighters it will easily have a more powerful engine than the f-15.
When comes to thrust, may or may not. But what make difference between a next gen jet engine will be the electrical output.
 
The reason they won't accept delivery of the F-35 with TR3 is because the TR3 software isn't working properly, which has delayed the integration of the Block 3F with TR3. As a result, the aircraft are not even able to carry out acceptance tests.

So you could say that it's just a certification problem and that it's not serious, but I say to myself that these aircraft are as unusable as a computer without an operating system: if they can't carry out acceptance tests, do you think we can send them into combat?

As per JPO's Schmidt, TR-3 software works on the ground, they are trying to make it work in the air now, so these look like teething issues. They struggled with getting enough flying prototypes for it. Apparently, they need 6 prototypes.

But yes, he also pointed out that they should have sufficiently catered to delays via interim arrangements, like the interim software the TR-3 F-35s are currently flying with. Or maybe with just TR-2s.

So it's just a certification issue now. I suppose it has also been compounded by a production problem with delays in supply of two TR-3 components.

B4 was supposed to be in 4 increments. 4.1 and .3 were software, .2 and .4 were hardware. 4.2 was supposed to bring in TR-3 and a new EODAS. Now they have added 14 new upgrades to the original B4. And TR-3 is now supposed to power all of that. TR-2 was originally supposed to power 3F and 4.1, and even 4.3 in older aircraft pending a TR-3 retrofit. So we know that failed, and B3F was incomplete.

Now, TR-3 is gonna give full 3F capabilities, and unlock initial B4 capabilities, perhaps all the way up to 4.3. So it's well within expectations that they are taking this time to certify a lot of these capabilities over the next few months. Taking as much as a year should be considered normal. Plus TR-3 will open up the first serial production orders, so it's a big decision for the Pentagon too.

The sensible thing LM should have done is supplied all the delayed jets with TR-2, with a quick retrofit down the line. But I guess the bureaucracy is too powerful for sensible decision-making.
 
As per JPO's Schmidt, TR-3 software works on the ground, they are trying to make it work in the air now, so these look like teething issues. They struggled with getting enough flying prototypes for it. Apparently, they need 6 prototypes.

But yes, he also pointed out that they should have sufficiently catered to delays via interim arrangements, like the interim software the TR-3 F-35s are currently flying with. Or maybe with just TR-2s.

So it's just a certification issue now. I suppose it has also been compounded by a production problem with delays in supply of two TR-3 components.

B4 was supposed to be in 4 increments. 4.1 and .3 were software, .2 and .4 were hardware. 4.2 was supposed to bring in TR-3 and a new EODAS. Now they have added 14 new upgrades to the original B4. And TR-3 is now supposed to power all of that. TR-2 was originally supposed to power 3F and 4.1, and even 4.3 in older aircraft pending a TR-3 retrofit. So we know that failed, and B3F was incomplete.

Now, TR-3 is gonna give full 3F capabilities, and unlock initial B4 capabilities, perhaps all the way up to 4.3. So it's well within expectations that they are taking this time to certify a lot of these capabilities over the next few months. Taking as much as a year should be considered normal. Plus TR-3 will open up the first serial production orders, so it's a big decision for the Pentagon too.

The sensible thing LM should have done is supplied all the delayed jets with TR-2, with a quick retrofit down the line. But I guess the bureaucracy is too powerful for sensible decision-making.
No, moving from ground operation to flight operation is not just a certification formality, it is an essential stage of development which takes a long time. This step took a year for TR2 and as TR3 is more complicated it will take even longer. What they can hope for is to have the simplified TR3 software working next June which will allow deliveries of F-35s to resume, but these will be useless planes because with this mini TR3 we will only be able to fly planes, we will not be able to add mission capabilities.

Then we will have to get a usable plane, as block 4 is too complicated and not yet mature enough for it to fall off quickly, they should decide to port block 3F to TR3, from my point of view it will take another year but the advantage is that a significant number of dormant bugs will be revealed and corrected, which will make this software more robust as well as block 4 which will benefit from the diagnosis made on 3F.

From January 2026 they will be able to start wearing block 4 on TR3, which means that for the first time they will be able to try to make everything work together in flight, and this is where we will see that the electrical generation is insufficient and that We must wait until 2029 to carry out the overall development in flight.

During the 3 interim years they will be able to carry out the overall development on the ground of the software which will have been developed in a partial environment in flight. This should accelerate the overall development which will take place after 2029. All this if there are no other surprises in the development of the new reactor core and its thermal and electrical management.
 
No, moving from ground operation to flight operation is not just a certification formality, it is an essential stage of development which takes a long time. This step took a year for TR2 and as TR3 is more complicated it will take even longer. What they can hope for is to have the simplified TR3 software working next June which will allow deliveries of F-35s to resume, but these will be useless planes because with this mini TR3 we will only be able to fly planes, we will not be able to add mission capabilities.

Then we will have to get a usable plane, as block 4 is too complicated and not yet mature enough for it to fall off quickly, they should decide to port block 3F to TR3, from my point of view it will take another year but the advantage is that a significant number of dormant bugs will be revealed and corrected, which will make this software more robust as well as block 4 which will benefit from the diagnosis made on 3F.

From January 2026 they will be able to start wearing block 4 on TR3, which means that for the first time they will be able to try to make everything work together in flight, and this is where we will see that the electrical generation is insufficient and that We must wait until 2029 to carry out the overall development in flight.

During the 3 interim years they will be able to carry out the overall development on the ground of the software which will have been developed in a partial environment in flight. This should accelerate the overall development which will take place after 2029. All this if there are no other surprises in the development of the new reactor core and its thermal and electrical management.

It doesn't look like the TR-3 is as behind as you say. An interim capability has already been flying on production F-35s since November. And flight testing of TR-3 on the F-35 began in Jan last year.


And when you say--
mini TR3 we will only be able to fly planes,

Are you saying TR-3 is related to flying the jet or something else? It's not, though. Flight controls are handled by the VMC. A new VMC was introduced last year.

But yes, I agree that new batches of software releases and capability unlocks will come slowly over time. So B3F pretty soon with improvements, FRC clearance, and an initial B4 from 2026 onwards deliveried via bulk orders. Which means B4 flight testing could already be happening.

As for the engine, they only need a few prototypes to start testing full B4. 2029 is for introduction of the upgrades in delivered units. It has nothing to do with development. In any case, they can test everything piecemeal on different jets and bring them all together in the end.
 
It doesn't look like the TR-3 is as behind as you say. An interim capability has already been flying on production F-35s since November. And flight testing of TR-3 on the F-35 began in Jan last year.


And when you say--


Are you saying TR-3 is related to flying the jet or something else? It's not, though. Flight controls are handled by the VMC. A new VMC was introduced last year.

But yes, I agree that new batches of software releases and capability unlocks will come slowly over time. So B3F pretty soon with improvements, FRC clearance, and an initial B4 from 2026 onwards deliveried via bulk orders. Which means B4 flight testing could already be happening.

As for the engine, they only need a few prototypes to start testing full B4. 2029 is for introduction of the upgrades in delivered units. It has nothing to do with development. In any case, they can test everything piecemeal on different jets and bring them all together in the end.
What I understand is that the VMC is intended to host critical software while the TR3 is for mission software. for example the flight controls are in the VMC but the navigation is in TR3. Navigation allows the display of virtual flight instruments and from my point of view it is necessary to fly comfortably although it is not as critical as the flight controls. For me in the mini TR3 there will be navigation and other things like OBOGS management for example but not electronic warfare or DASS management.