Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[randomradio]

It's not over till it's over. I would just say that the reaction that some people are gonna have would be the opposite if their plane won.

Lockheed may offer a performance based contract.

The Finnish choice should be able to by and large conclude the debate to a significant extent.

What doesn't work in the F-35's favour is if the Rafale ends up being very close to the F-35 even if the F-35 is ahead, because the Rafale was designed in the 80s on a significantly smaller budget. 'Cause if the generation gap is real, then the F-35 should be miles ahead, with overwhelming superiority.

 

[zinswinsin]

The Finnish choice should be able to by and large conclude the debate to a significant extent.

What doesn't work in the F-35's favour is if the Rafale ends up being very close to the F-35 even if the F-35 is ahead, because the Rafale was designed in the 80s on a significantly smaller budget. 'Cause if the generation gap is real, then the F-35 should be miles ahead, with overwhelming superiority.

I would kill for leaks on those technical evaluations for sure.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I would kill for leaks on those technical evaluations for sure.

The Swiss Defence Minister has promised that the technical assessments will be published: this is where the laughter comes in.

 

[randomradio]

Capability is also going to decide it which the F-35 won hands down. If cost is their concern they can always buy F-16's or
F-18E's. Swiss know Europe is going F-35 for a good reason (capability) and they don't want a 4th gen fighter that will be inferior
in 15-10 years from now.

You misunderstood. They are not looking at something that's cheap.

In India, we have two rounds of elimination. In the first round, the IAF decides which jets meet their requirements and then shortlist those. They kick out the rest. So in the MMRCA, the F-16, SH, Mig-35 and Gripen failed to make the cut, only the Typhoon and Rafale went through, and the Typhoon won this round. The second round is the where they compare costs, where the cheapest of the shortlisted jet wins. This round compared the Typhoon and the Rafale and the Rafale won.

In the previous Swiss tender that was cancelled, the Rafale beat the Typhoon and Gripen in the technical round, but lost to the Gripen due to cost. This time they kicked the Gripen out, so the contest is between four jets with similar cost structure.

Anyway, the SH is more expensive than the F-35, as per DSCA. So that leaves the Typhoon, Rafale and F-35 in the running. And we know for a fact that the Typhoon is the most expensive of all these jets. Hence Rafale vs F-35.

It will all come down to the cost. And a quick check revealed, the Swiss are considering life cycle costs over a 30-year period.

 

[Dawg-69]

The F-16 was being offered to Finland the last time Finland was choosing fighters. This is how it went.

First there were four planes on offer. Mig-29, F-16, Gripen and Mirage 2000.

Mig-29 fell out for political reasons, as the Soviet Union was collapsing at that time. The Swedes were certain that Gripen would win.

F-16 was dropped because it did not match the demands of FAF, the Finnish Air Force. Gripen was dropped because it was deemed too high risk. It was not quite ready yet.

Mirage 2000 actually satisfied the demands of FAF. However, at the last moment, F-18 Hornet was offered, it came in "through the back door", and through a very quick process, the decision makers opted for the Hornet. Nobody was aware of the final choice before it was made public and it was quite a shock to everybody.

Now the interesting thing is that Mirage 2000 ALMOST made it. Some of the reasons for the Hornet choice were probably political. Finland wanted to very quickly become a client for USA at the moment when there was chaos in Russia. USA decided at some point that they wanted to enforce the northern flank of NATO.

Perhaps I am misremembering some details, but it whould be fairly easy to find info on this process with google and then use google translate. Google translate works surprisingly well nowadays.

Finland's military deals often bring surprises and also now, with HX, it is well possible that the end result is shocker. We shall see.

 

[randomradio]

The Swiss Defence Minister has promised that the technical assessments will be published: this is where the laughter comes in.

Excellent news. So, it's only a few days away...

The Rafale F4.2 is guaranteed to beat the F-35 in avionics, payload and performance. Only survivablity is the real question.

 

[randomradio]

I would kill for leaks on those technical evaluations for sure.

Definitely. The Finnish results will help the most. I hope that if they do release it, the official govt version will be available in English. I don't wanna read google translated crap.

 

[Dawg-69]

The Finnish choice should be able to by and large conclude the debate to a significant extent.

I don't know about that, because Finland's needs could be peculiar. Last time, F-16 was dropped. It was not because it was a bad plane - we all know it is a classic - but because there was some requirement that it did not fulfill.

So it really depends on many many factors. We really do not know how much weight the FAF is giving to all the different minutiae. Let us say, what if one deciding factor is that the plane must intercept Mig-31's? Then maybe Eurofighter Typhoon will be chosen. But maybe that actually doesn't matter at all? I actually have no idea.

The way I see it - but I could be wrong - is that Rafale is the choice if Finland now wants maximal independence. Dassault has promised unlimited tech transfer and production in-country and that kind of thing. But... I don't really know if that is what they want.

Definitely. The Finnish results will help the most. I hope that if they do release it, the official govt version will be available in English. I don't wanna read google translated crap.

You might need to wait 25 years or so. The previous time, results were declared secret for a couple of decades or 25 years or something. Now they are known and it's all over internet, but not before.

 

[Dawg-69]

Run this through google translate and you will know all the important things about Finland's previous round:

Salatut asiakirjat paljastavat Hornet-hankinnan taustat 25 vuotta sitten

Salatut asiakirjat paljastavat, miksi Suomen hallitus päätyi 25 vuotta sitten hankkimaan amerikkalaisia F-18 Hornet -hävittäjiä.

www.iltalehti.fi

 

[randomradio]

I don't know about that, because Finland's needs could be peculiar. Last time, F-16 was dropped. It was not because it was a bad plane - we all know it is a classic - but because there was some requirement that it did not fulfill.

The Finns would prefer twin engine jets. An engine failure would save the pilot, or else when he has to eject over harsh terrain, it would kill him very quickly.

The way I see it - but I could be wrong - is that Rafale is the choice if Finland now wants maximal independence. Dassault has promised unlimited tech transfer and production in-country and that kind of thing. But... I don't really know if that is what they want.

I doubt they will make a political decision though. While the Swiss are interested in controlling costs, the Finns are much more interested in capability.

You might need to wait 25 years or so. The previous time, results were declared secret for a couple of decades or 25 years or something. Now they are known and it's all over internet, but not before.

Yeah, that's gonna be a tad bit disappointing.

 

[Dawg-69]

I hope this is not too much off-topic, but this page explains quite a lot about some important issues:

Towards #SDSR18 – Defending Europe

The UK should approach the defence of Europe with a number of basic principles in mind and prioritise smart partnerships, improving the capability of allies and having skin in the game where it cou…

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

Baltics are the number one potential flashpoint. Northern flank, Finland. Southern flank, Poland. USA is involved because it is NATO's biggest member. Sweden is involved because NATO planes will fly over and from Sweden in case of conflict. Multinational battlegroup for Estonia includes France and Britain.

As you see, every country in HX is intimately involved.

 

[randomradio]

Run this through google translate and you will know all the important things about Finland's previous round:

Salatut asiakirjat paljastavat Hornet-hankinnan taustat 25 vuotta sitten

Salatut asiakirjat paljastavat, miksi Suomen hallitus päätyi 25 vuotta sitten hankkimaan amerikkalaisia F-18 Hornet -hävittäjiä.

www.iltalehti.fi

Nice find. This clears a lot of doubts.

Gripen was WIP and only at the level of the FA-50 or LCA, not enough. Mig-29S was bad, no doubt, it was only a decent dog fighter. The decision made for rejecting the F-16 was solid. History is proof that its future beyond Block 52 is dead. Even if it had come for upgrades between 2015 and 2020, it would have been limited, no different from the Hornet upgrade they received. Mirage 2000 was surprising because it's not expensive to operate. Dunno about the museum stuff comment either. But it was the only other jet that met their needs. But like the F-16, its upgrade path was limited for the time.

The F/A-18 was the obvious choice here. Its competitors simply sucked. It came out the best of the lot and won.

 

[Dawg-69]

I think the museum stuff comment has to do with the engines. Historically, there were three companies who were the cutting edge of fighter engine design - two were in USA and one was in Europe. That was Rolls Royce. So the Mirage 2000 engines were not quite as high tech as R&R or American. I am really not an expert on this matter, I depend on what I have read. It may be that the M88 engine in Rafale is on the same level as any other HX contestant.

 

[Innominate]

Excellent news. So, it's only a few days away...

The Rafale F4.2 is guaranteed to beat the F-35 in avionics, payload and performance. Only survivablity is the real question.

Wow you are soooo wrong. Does Rafale have EODAS capability? Just wait in a few months when F-35 block 4 comes out it will be more advanced than it currently is and that is not mentioning block 4+.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Wow you are soooo wrong. Does Rafale have EODAS capability? Just wait in a few months when F-35 block 4 comes out it will be more advanced than it currently is and that is not mentioning block 4+.

Why don't you elaborate on those features! The French here would have everyone believe that Rafale is the single most important event in aviation history since the Orville bros made their first flight.

Don't get me wrong . I think the Rafale is a magnificent machine more so if one considers the fact that it's the only product from the western hemisphere completely devoid of any American influence or product in it , built by a totally independent aviation ecosystem.

Not a small achievement given successful US attempts at sabotaging similar independent ventures among their allies viz Canada , Israel , etc ably assisted by the latter's own politicians . Another glaring example is the steady emaciation of the BAe now successfully reduced to being a contractor to the US defence ecosystem in as far as aviation products & sub systems go.

 

[BMD]

Doubt it. The Swiss have been following procedure. Only if they cancel the tender and buy their choice will it be political.

Cost's gonna decide it, like it did during the first tender, where the choice was apolitical.

Costs and performance are both on the side of the F-35. Only EU dick sucking will prevent an F-35 purchase.

 

[randomradio]

Wow you are soooo wrong. Does Rafale have EODAS capability? Just wait in a few months when F-35 block 4 comes out it will be more advanced than it currently is and that is not mentioning block 4+.

Yes. The Rafale does have EODAS, has been operational since 2013. Although there are sensor coverage limitations due to the positioning of the sensors, but it's not a deal-breaker.

EODAS is simply MAWS + LWS. Although the F-35 started design phase with this tech right from the start and ended up in marketing brochures, but due to development delays most other aircraft have caught up. So today, pretty much all advanced aircraft post 2010 have this tech. Su-35S, Typhoon and Rafale are among them.

DDM-NG | Air Dominance, COUNTERMEASURES | MBDA

DDM-NG has been designed to provide the Rafale fighter self-protection system (Spectra) with an advanced Missile Warning System covering most of the sphere around the aircraft.

www.mbda-systems.com

The Su-35 practically matches the F-35 now.

Right now, the Su-57's EO sensors are the technology to beat, not the F-35.

We are yet to see what upgrade and coverage the Rafale F4.2 gets.

 

[randomradio]

Costs and performance are both on the side of the F-35.

Cost is impossible since the Rafale doesn't require expensive overhauls. Even if the upfront costs are higher, the LCC is gonna favour the Rafale.

Performance, the Rafale can supercruise, no contest. Enough said.

 

[zinswinsin]

The room for upgrade on the F-35 is much larger than the Rafale. 4.2 is the 52 of the F-16.

Block 4 + a new engine would basically be a new plane.

 

[BMD]

Cost is impossible since the Rafale doesn't require expensive overhauls. Even if the upfront costs are higher, the LCC is gonna favour the Rafale.

Performance, the Rafale can supercruise, no contest. Enough said.

The F-35 can supercruise at M1.2 and is far more likely than the Rafale to be carrying a mission load with which it can supercruise due to internal bays. LCCs are something that Dassault can fabricate.