Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

F16 was cutting edge jet of its time and so is F35. Both are mainly for export purposes and are of multirole fighters.
IDK about DOD or State Dept but my information is correct regarding F35.
No the F-16 was not cutting edge. It was created as a cheap lightweight dogfighter where it could only carry sidewinders as it had no radar. The cutting edge fighter at the time was the F-15 even though it only had one role.

-The original F-15 had excellent pilot vision, including being able to see 360 degrees in the horizontal plane. It had strong high-speed maneuverability and a 20mm cannon. In addition to rectifying some of the F-4's deficiencies, it could fly higher and faster than the F-4, and had dramatically better climb and acceleration.

It also had a powerful radar with advanced look-down shoot-down capability, and relied on the Sparrow missile as its principal weapon.

Nevertheless, an informal but influential group called the "Fighter Mafia" objected to the F-15 as moving in the wrong direction. (The most prominent Fighter Mafia spokesmen were systems analyst Pierre Sprey, test pilot Charles E. Meyers, and legendary fighter pilot John Boyd.)

The F-15, the Fighter Mafia objected, was even larger and more expensive than the F-4. Much of that money went into creating high maximum speed (Mach 2.5) and altitude (65,000 feet) and to serving as a launcher, under BVR conditions which couldn't be used in real combat,. for the Sparrow missile which didn't work While recognizing that the F-15 had phenomenal supersonic climb and maneuverability (it could sustain 6Gs at Mach 1.6), at such speeds it could not fight because its turn radius was so large that it could not keep the enemy in sight.

What the Air Force needed, the Mafia argued, was a successor to the WWII P-51 Mustang and the Korean War F-86 Saber: an all-new small fighter that would be cheap enough to buy in large numbers. (The F-104 was not considered a predecessor aircraft because, while it had excellent climb and acceleration, its wings were too small, leaving it deficient in range and maneuverability.) The new fighter would have revolutionary maneuverability, transient performance, acceleration, and climb at the subsonic and transonic speeds at which air combat is actually fought. It would have a gun and its primary armament would be the infra-red guided Sidewinder missile that had proven highly effective in Vietnam.

While Sidewinder's range was limited to about three miles, the Mafia argued that air combat beyond that range was fantasy in any case. Some members of the Mafia even suggested that the ideal small fighter would have no radar at all, although this was a minority view.

In any case, the Air Force establishment wanted no part of a new small fighter, with or without radar. It was regarded as a threat to the F-15, which was USAF's highest priority program. But the Fighter Mafia gained considerable resonance in Congress and within the Office of the Secretary of Defense. In 1971 Deputy Secretary of Defense David Packard began a Lightweight Fighter (LWF) program to explore the concept.

The LWF was to be about 20,000 pounds, or half the weight of the F-15, and was to stress low cost, small size, and very high performance at speed below Mach 1.6 and altitude below 40,000 feet. Two competing designs would be chosen for prototyping.

Industry recognized, correctly, that regardless of USAF hostility, LWF variants had great potential for profitable foreign military sales, including replacing the F-104. Single-engine designs were put forward by Boeing, General Dynamics, LTV, Northrop, and Rockwell. Northrop also proposed on a twin-engine design, in effect using Air Force money to develop a replacement for its F-5 export fighter.

The Boeing and General Dynamics designs were the clear leaders from the beginning, with the Northrop twin-engine design clearly the weakest of the six.
F-16 Fighting Falcon - Military Aircraft (fas.org)

India never got briefed DOD and State Department didn't give LM permission. It gets reported here in the states by defense officials of such action. They released a statement when Germany and other nations got the F-35 briefing.
 
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DOD and State Department has never given LM the green light to brief India on the F-35,

2007
After a first-level-of-detail presentation to the Navy in 2005 on the F-35C Lightning II, a top team from Lockheed-Martin gave the Indian Air Force a classified presentation on the F-35A Lightning II on Tuesday at Vayu Bhawan. The team, led by Tom Green (VP, Business Development), gave the IAF a preliminary introductory presentation on the capabilities, economics and opportunities for own systems integration on the F-35.

2011
The U.S. Defense Department, in a report to Congress on U.S.-India security cooperation, said if New Delhi indicated an interest in Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the Pentagon would be willing to provide information on the aircraft’s security and infrastructure requirements.

“The F-35 is something that we would be more than willing to talk to the government of India about should they request to find out more information about purchasing it,” said Robert Scher, deputy assistant secretary of defence for South Asia.


2012
Asked today about the Indian Navy’s interest in the F-35 Lightning II, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral D.K. Joshi today said that while the acquisition of a new generation fighter from abroad with “in the planning phase”, the Navy was looking forward more to the LCA Navy. Lockheed-Martin has pitched both F-35B and C variants to the Indian Navy, and is understood to have made another presentation recently.

2018
First reported on by Stratpost.com, during a recent House Armed Services Committee hearing USPACOM boss Admiral Harry Harris Jr. is quotes as stating the following:
“At the moment, India is considering a number of U.S. systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for India’s large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for India’s multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of SeaGuardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter...
 
2007
After a first-level-of-detail presentation to the Navy in 2005 on the F-35C Lightning II, a top team from Lockheed-Martin gave the Indian Air Force a classified presentation on the F-35A Lightning II on Tuesday at Vayu Bhawan. The team, led by Tom Green (VP, Business Development), gave the IAF a preliminary introductory presentation on the capabilities, economics and opportunities for own systems integration on the F-35.

2011
The U.S. Defense Department, in a report to Congress on U.S.-India security cooperation, said if New Delhi indicated an interest in Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the Pentagon would be willing to provide information on the aircraft’s security and infrastructure requirements.

“The F-35 is something that we would be more than willing to talk to the government of India about should they request to find out more information about purchasing it,” said Robert Scher, deputy assistant secretary of defence for South Asia.


2012
Asked today about the Indian Navy’s interest in the F-35 Lightning II, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral D.K. Joshi today said that while the acquisition of a new generation fighter from abroad with “in the planning phase”, the Navy was looking forward more to the LCA Navy. Lockheed-Martin has pitched both F-35B and C variants to the Indian Navy, and is understood to have made another presentation recently.

2018
First reported on by Stratpost.com, during a recent House Armed Services Committee hearing USPACOM boss Admiral Harry Harris Jr. is quotes as stating the following:
“At the moment, India is considering a number of U.S. systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for India’s large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for India’s multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of SeaGuardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter...
Wow. First of all you should know better than using livefistdefense as a source it's as dumb as it gets. F-35 first flew in 2006 to even suggest let alone claim India got the blessing by DOD and State Department to let LM give India a classified briefing of the F-35 in 2007 is as ridiculous as the Indian air force and the Indian air force is ridiculous for obvious reasons. India wasn't even on the LM radar back then. Israel was the first non-partner nation to be offered the F-35 in 2010 but somehow India was given classified briefing in 07? Puh-leeeze!

The 2011 Reuters article India didn't indicate interest so no information on security and infrastructure requirements was given let alone F-35's classified capabilities.

thedrive article... What point are you trying to make? What point are you trying to make with the Reuters? India still hasn't gotten the classified briefing even when it requested it in 2018. Your livefist articles are a joke and it just made you look foolish for posting them. Tabloid journalism.
 
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Wow. First of all you should know better than using livefistdefense as a source it's as dumb as it gets. F-35 first flew in 2006 to even suggest let alone claim India got the blessing by DOD and State Department to let LM give India a classified briefing of the F-35 in 2007 is as ridiculous as the Indian air force and the Indian air force is ridiculous for obvious reasons. India wasn't even on the LM radar back then. Israel was the first non-partner nation to be offered the F-35 in 2010 but somehow India was given classified briefing in 07? Puh-leeeze!

The 2011 Reuters article India didn't indicate interest so no information on security and infrastructure requirements was given let alone F-35's classified capabilities.

thedrive article... What point are you trying to make? What point are you trying to make with the Reuters? India still hasn't gotten the classified briefing even when it requested it in 2018. Your livefist articles are a joke and it just made you look foolish for posting them. Tabloid journalism.
He has provided articles to support his claims unlike you, who have nothing but just same old arguments without anything verifiable. Can you show us any evidence that DOD rejected India’s request (if any) in 2018 ?
PS: the Live Defence Guy was the point man of LM Propogana department in India.
You can see his videos in F16V cockpit in a joyride/advertisement by LM. And he’s article is genuine with proper references and quotes unlike your tabloids like NYT and WaPo.
 
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That is IAF's biggest problem... It has too many different class of fighters that have separate roles. That is how a nations air force becomes weak especially when those different type of fighters are all foreign.
Tejas is not foreign and it basically will replace our mig 21 bisons. And since it is multi-role it can do similar jobs as our mig 23 and mig 27 once the mk1a joins the service they will be superior to the mig 29UPG's and Mirages. We are slowly standardising our fleet the speed is abysmal but it's happening. Our ground attack CAS will still be handled through the Jaguars. Interception will be handled by tejas. Deep striking will be handled by Rafale. While flankers have flexibility of doing anti-ship or air superiority..
For that matter the Russians, Americans and Chinese all have a huge fleet of different aircrafts for different roles.
Like the f15 C and are now used for interception and air-policing. The F22 for air superiority. The F35 deep striking. The f16 for interception as well as CAS same for the a-10..
 
He has provided articles to support his claims unlike you, who have nothing but just same old arguments without anything verifiable. Can you show us any evidence that DOD rejected India’s request (if any) in 2018 ?
PS: the Live Defence Guy was the point man of LM Propogana department in India.
You can see his videos in F16V cockpit in a joyride/advertisement by LM. And he’s article is genuine with proper references and quotes unlike your tabloids like NYT and WaPo.
What? No he hasn't. The livefist article is obvious tabloid journalism that some in here don't recognize since it's from 2007 a year after the F-35's first flight! Only partner nations were in the know of the classified capabilities as in its stealth and avionics its kinematic performance was still a guess since they were barely getting started. Israel was the first non partner nation to get briefed on the F-35's capabilities in 2010 followed by Japan in 2011 in which they selected the F-35 Dec, 2011. When a nation gets briefed on the F-35's classified info it makes news.

Germany Asks US for Classified Briefing on Lockheed's F-35 Fighter​

Germany Asks US for Classified Briefing on Lockheed's F-35 Fighter | Voice of America - English (voanews.com)
May 2017

Pentagon officials brief Germany on F-35 fighter jet​


Pentagon officials brief Germany on F-35 fighter jet | Reuters
July 2017.

Swiss briefing.

Defensenews has the Finns and Aussies have a pdf file on briefing of F-35A.

No US official has ever confirmed, like it has with other nations, that India has been given the classified F-35 briefing. That's Indian wishful thinking.

Believe your own IAF air chief.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has officially denied reports that it has requested a classified briefing by U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin on the capabilities of its fifth-generation stealth multi-role F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II, the aircraft’s conventional takeoff and landing version.

“We have not officially asked for a briefing on the F-35 nor has any request been made to the Americans,” the commanding officer of the IAF, Air Chief Marshal Birender Sing Dhanoa, told The Indian Express last week. Indian media reports emerged in February that the IAF is considering the F-35A to fill a requirement for up to 126 fighter jets as a deal for 126 French-made Dassault Rafale multirole fighter aircraft was abandoned.
India Denies Interest in F-35 Joint Strike Fighter – The Diplomat
 
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You know very well that whatever claim you are making,its just hot air as neither you can support it nor I can reject it with evidences. Nothing more and nothing less. All I know from public sources is that US gave us a briefing about F35 a while back and they wanted us to buy F16V/F21 as a prerequisite/gap filler before F35 are made available to us. I don’t have access to any confidential information so can’t comment anything more.

When we never formally requested for F35 (till date), will they forcefully shove them to our throats?
How stupid are you mate.
And f35 is nothing more than a fifth gen F16 reincarnation and will be sold to every possible customer across globe.
There are/were few US assets which indeed are too secretive to be sold to even their loyal paddles like UK, such as F22, B2, SR71 and almost all submarines.
Otherwise even those big Aircraft carriers are available for sale.
The logic is on my side though. You are not a NATO member, Turkey is, Turkey bought S-400, no F-35 for them. You have bought S-400 and other stuff and are not a NATO member and have had difficult relations with NATO in the past.
 
They operated in a different role, within the reach of SAR helicopters. We have the LCA for that now.

If we need the F-35, it's for missions where it needs to go deep inside enemy territory without external support and rescue options. A downed pilot is a dead pilot in such conditions. Especially so when a pilot operating from the plains is thrown onto a plateau 4000+m above sea level.
Single engines have very little bearing on that these days. The Rafail doesn't have great stats as regards number of crashes per 100,000 flying hours either. The F-15EX would have made a better choice, assuming they would sell you that.
 
Single engines have very little bearing on that these days. The Rafail doesn't have great stats as regards number of crashes per 100,000 flying hours either. The F-15EX would have made a better choice, assuming they would sell you that.
The Tejas LCA - Mk-1 / Mk-1a is meant as a QR CAP jet fighter to replace the MiG-21s on our western borders i.e with Pakistan. The MiG-27 , MiG-23 & Jaguars were also envisaged as ground attack fighters on the same front with the latter functioning as DPSA also tasked with delivery of gravity N bombs .

With the induction of the Rafales , the idea presently is to replace the Jaguars ( the only one in service out of the 3 ) on both fronts i.e - western & northern / North Eastern aka Pakistani & Chinese fronts. The AMCA is expected to double up with the Rafales when it comes into service.


Slapping & schooling you with such titbits of information constantly makes my day , Paddy.
 
The logic is on my side though. You are not a NATO member, Turkey is, Turkey bought S-400, no F-35 for them. You have bought S-400 and other stuff and are not a NATO member and have had difficult relations with NATO in the past.
What kind of logic is that ?
More nonNATO countries operating/inducting F35 then NATO members . Japan, Switzerland, Finland, Australia, Canada etc are all non NATO countries
 
What? No he hasn't. The livefist article is obvious tabloid journalism that some in here don't recognize since it's from 2007 a year after the F-35's first flight! Only partner nations were in the know of the classified capabilities as in its stealth and avionics its kinematic performance was still a guess since they were barely getting started. Israel was the first non partner nation to get briefed on the F-35's capabilities in 2010 followed by Japan in 2011 in which they selected the F-35 Dec, 2011. When a nation gets briefed on the F-35's classified info it makes news.

Germany Asks US for Classified Briefing on Lockheed's F-35 Fighter​

Germany Asks US for Classified Briefing on Lockheed's F-35 Fighter | Voice of America - English (voanews.com)
May 2017

Pentagon officials brief Germany on F-35 fighter jet​


Pentagon officials brief Germany on F-35 fighter jet | Reuters
July 2017.

Swiss briefing.

Defensenews has the Finns and Aussies have a pdf file on briefing of F-35A.

No US official has ever confirmed, like it has with other nations, that India has been given the classified F-35 briefing. That's Indian wishful thinking.

Believe your own IAF air chief.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has officially denied reports that it has requested a classified briefing by U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin on the capabilities of its fifth-generation stealth multi-role F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II, the aircraft’s conventional takeoff and landing version.

“We have not officially asked for a briefing on the F-35 nor has any request been made to the Americans,” the commanding officer of the IAF, Air Chief Marshal Birender Sing Dhanoa, told The Indian Express last week. Indian media reports emerged in February that the IAF is considering the F-35A to fill a requirement for up to 126 fighter jets as a deal for 126 French-made Dassault Rafale multirole fighter aircraft was abandoned.
India Denies Interest in F-35 Joint Strike Fighter – The Diplomat
So in short you have nothing to prove either of your claims. And IAF chief’s comments further proves your claims wrong. Just re read it once more
 
So in short you have nothing to prove either of your claims. And IAF chief’s comments further proves your claims wrong. Just re read it once more
Lets see here....

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has officially denied reports that it has requested a classified briefing by U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin on the capabilities of its fifth-generation stealth multi-role F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II, the aircraft’s conventional takeoff and landing version.

“We have not officially asked for a briefing on the F-35 nor has any request been made to the Americans,” the commanding officer of the IAF, Air Chief Marshal Birender Sing Dhanoa, told The Indian Express last week. Indian media reports emerged in February that the IAF is considering the F-35A to fill a requirement for up to 126 fighter jets as a deal for 126 French-made Dassault Rafale multirole fighter aircraft was abandoned.
India Denies Interest in F-35 Joint Strike Fighter – The Diplomat

He denies the request ever took place meaning NO F-35 BRIEFING... What's so hard to understand?
 
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Wow. First of all you should know better than using livefistdefense as a source it's as dumb as it gets. F-35 first flew in 2006 to even suggest let alone claim India got the blessing by DOD and State Department to let LM give India a classified briefing of the F-35 in 2007 is as ridiculous as the Indian air force and the Indian air force is ridiculous for obvious reasons. India wasn't even on the LM radar back then. Israel was the first non-partner nation to be offered the F-35 in 2010 but somehow India was given classified briefing in 07? Puh-leeeze!

The 2011 Reuters article India didn't indicate interest so no information on security and infrastructure requirements was given let alone F-35's classified capabilities.

thedrive article... What point are you trying to make? What point are you trying to make with the Reuters? India still hasn't gotten the classified briefing even when it requested it in 2018. Your livefist articles are a joke and it just made you look foolish for posting them. Tabloid journalism.

Lol. You changed your face quickly when presented with facts. Anyway, Livefist belongs to a well-known defence journalist, he gets a lot rides on the back of fighter planes.


Defence Journalist Shiv Aroor has done sorties in five of the six combat aircraft competing for India's largest ever military contract.

As for the "most classified briefing", that's for those who have already bought the aircraft. Funny that.
 
Single engines have very little bearing on that these days. The Rafail doesn't have great stats as regards number of crashes per 100,000 flying hours either. The F-15EX would have made a better choice, assuming they would sell you that.

Twin engine jets are extremely important since they can suffer more battle damage than single engine jets.
Lets see here....

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has officially denied reports that it has requested a classified briefing by U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin on the capabilities of its fifth-generation stealth multi-role F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II, the aircraft’s conventional takeoff and landing version.

“We have not officially asked for a briefing on the F-35 nor has any request been made to the Americans,” the commanding officer of the IAF, Air Chief Marshal Birender Sing Dhanoa, told The Indian Express last week. Indian media reports emerged in February that the IAF is considering the F-35A to fill a requirement for up to 126 fighter jets as a deal for 126 French-made Dassault Rafale multirole fighter aircraft was abandoned.
India Denies Interest in F-35 Joint Strike Fighter – The Diplomat

He denies the request ever took place meaning NO F-35 BRIEFING... What's so hard to understand?

Yes. The IAF has not shown any interest in the F-35.

But the IN has. They have checked out both the F-35B and C and also the C-2 and E-2D for carrier operations.
 
Lol. You changed your face quickly when presented with facts. Anyway, Livefist belongs to a well-known defence journalist, he gets a lot rides on the back of fighter planes.


Defence Journalist Shiv Aroor has done sorties in five of the six combat aircraft competing for India's largest ever military contract.

As for the "most classified briefing", that's for those who have already bought the aircraft. Funny that.
Changed my mind on what? I don't care what this Indian "journalist" cred is in 2007 livefisting made a false claim. India has never been privy to a classified briefing of the F-35. A request was made in 2018 but then denied by IAF air chief meaning DOD and State Department didn't have to make a decision since the IAF made it for them.

Trying to play words games only makes you look foolish. There's no "most classified briefing " there's just classified when it comes to F-35.

Germany hasn't bought the F-35 but got it. Finland hasn't made a decision but got briefed. Switzerland got briefed before selecting it.

Nation allies who already use advanced US weapon systems especially fighters have a much easier time getting a classified briefing of the F-35 when they request it for obvious reasons that does not apply to India especially in 2007.
 
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Twin engine jets are extremely important since they can suffer more battle damage than single engine jets.


Yes. The IAF has not shown any interest in the F-35.

But the IN has. They have checked out both the F-35B and C and also the C-2 and E-2D for carrier operations.
IAF or IN it doesn't matter US has not given LM permission to brief the IAF or IN on the F-35. "checked out" doesn't mean classified briefing. I've checked out many fighters in my short life at MCAS Miramar but don't have knowledge of the F-18E and F-35B's true capabilities.
 
IAF or IN it doesn't matter US has not given LM permission to brief the IAF or IN on the F-35. "checked out" doesn't mean classified briefing. I've checked out many fighters in my short life at MCAS Miramar but don't have knowledge of the F-18E and F-35B's true capabilities.

Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter

Excerpts from the article :

The Indian Navy, which has never ruled out operating the F-35 off Indian aircraft carriers, has received a briefing on the F-35 as far back as 2010, Lockheed Martin official Orville Prins told this correspondent. However, at that stage, the F-35 was still grappling with serious development challenges.




In 2011, the influential US Senate Armed Services Committee requested the Pentagon to study the feasibility of an F-35 sale to India. Senators John Cornyn (co-chair of the Senate India Caucus) and Joseph Lieberman spearheaded the proposal.


But US officials in Washington also complain about fatigue at New Delhi’s tardiness in following up discussions with formal requests. The mood in the Pentagon, say these officials, is: “Let New Delhi ask for the F-35. Then we’ll take things forward.”

The defence ministry and the IAF have not responded to an emailed request for comments.


Changed my mind on what? I don't care what this Indian "journalist" cred is in 2007 livefisting made a false claim. India has never been privy to a classified briefing of the F-35. A request was made in 2018 but then denied by IAF air chief meaning DOD and State Department didn't have to make a decision since the IAF made it for them.
What's livefisting , TeeHee ?
 
Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter

Excerpts from the article :

The Indian Navy, which has never ruled out operating the F-35 off Indian aircraft carriers, has received a briefing on the F-35 as far back as 2010, Lockheed Martin official Orville Prins told this correspondent. However, at that stage, the F-35 was still grappling with serious development challenges.




In 2011, the influential US Senate Armed Services Committee requested the Pentagon to study the feasibility of an F-35 sale to India. Senators John Cornyn (co-chair of the Senate India Caucus) and Joseph Lieberman spearheaded the proposal.


But US officials in Washington also complain about fatigue at New Delhi’s tardiness in following up discussions with formal requests. The mood in the Pentagon, say these officials, is: “Let New Delhi ask for the F-35. Then we’ll take things forward.”

The defence ministry and the IAF have not responded to an emailed request for comments.



What's livefisting , TeeHee ?
Not a classified briefing. What part of that don't you understand? Classified needs DOD and State Department approval which has not been approved yet. When that happens especially a non ally nation it becomes a big deal. Notice your own article mentions "classified briefing" and then "briefing" for IAF an IN?
 
Changed my mind on what? I don't care what this Indian "journalist" cred is in 2007 livefisting made a false claim. India has never been privy to a classified briefing of the F-35. A request was made in 2018 but then denied by IAF air chief meaning DOD and State Department didn't have to make a decision since the IAF made it for them.

Trying to play words games only makes you look foolish. There's no "most classified briefing " there's just classified when it comes to F-35.

Germany hasn't bought the F-35 but got it. Finland hasn't made a decision but got briefed. Switzerland got briefed before selecting it.

Nation allies who already use advanced US weapon systems especially fighters have a much easier time getting a classified briefing of the F-35 when they request it for obvious reasons that does not apply to India especially in 2007.

Lol. You said were not even offered the F-35. But I proved that we were. And it was the IAF who didn't show any interest in it. If we do not show interest, then why would the US give us a classified briefing?