Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[_Anonymous_]

USAF F-22 landing mishap today at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida (🇺🇸).

The landing gear collapsed upon landing, causing the aircraft to veer off the runway. There are currently no reports of injuries. pic.twitter.com/J0GWTuKxw2

— Bizjets of War (@bizjetsofwar) March 22, 2022

I think the NGF won't come a day too soon, sweetie. @WHOHE

 

[Shekhar Singh]

How stealthy AMCA going to be seeing it's design and size? Will it be anywhere close to f35 or f22?
@Bhartiya Sainik
@randomradio

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

USAF F-22 landing mishap today at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida (🇺🇸).

The landing gear collapsed upon landing, causing the aircraft to veer off the runway. There are currently no reports of injuries. pic.twitter.com/J0GWTuKxw2

— Bizjets of War (@bizjetsofwar) March 22, 2022

I think the NGF won't come a day too soon, sweetie. @WHOHE

It does appear funny when landing gear collapses of world's costliest fighter jet.
US citizens must be very angry on usage of their taxes, but the engineers are also frustrated.

 

[Bon Plan]

It does appear funny when landing gear collapses of world's costliest fighter jet.
US citizens must be very angry on usage of their taxes, but the engineers are also frustrated.

Same kind of problem with a far more costlier aircraft : B2

Shit happens...

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

How stealthy AMCA going to be seeing it's design and size? Will it be anywhere close to f35 or f22?
@Bhartiya Sainik
@randomradio

There is simply not enough data.
Full scale real hollow airframe has to be made & tested in RCS range & anechoic chambers from all angles.
We need material composition details.
Our DoD has also developed "Adrishya" RAM but they have to apply it on full scale model & test.



F-22 has RCS 0.00015
F-35 has RCS 0.0015
AMCA target 0.01 at least to start with.
It looks similar to F-22 & F-35 so let's hope that the RCS would be better than J-20 & Su-57 present day signatures, lessthan 0.1 sqm, between 0.01 & 0.1 sqm in the worst initial case.




But this is only the structural part. EW/ECM/ESM also matters in active RF cancellation or jamming. The challenge is that RF wave forms can change frequency rapidly & randomly which is next to impossibe to predict, catch & cancel. It is just like Bluetooth uses Spread Spectrum Frequency Hopping & changes frequency 1600 times/second b/w 70-80 randomly chosen frequencies.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Oh! look! media reported that Chinese signed friendship treaty with USA & flew side by side

 

[randomradio]

Obviously that's the theory of upgrade but just like don't rapidly upgrade our phone, laptop, washing machine, TV, etc when every year there are newer better models, similarly military systems also cannot be rapidly upgraded until the 1st iteration of the PROJECT is complete otherwise there will be significant surge in cost affecting country's economy.

The E-3 recently finished upgrades.

I'm common citizen, not DoD person. This is casual unofficial hobby site for enthusiasts who's basis are the public media sources. But atleast i'm technically qualified & experienced.
What would be your basis? Are you DoD guy?

Regardless of what your experience is, data is generated based on facts, not because you feel like it.

I respect your belief but that's not what i believe, so let's not go in circles of dogfight of words. I did say that Su-57 is dangerous in close combat & it has some cool things like DIRCM, LEVCONS, 3D-TVC, etc which is yet to be seen on western jets but at the moment i believe that F-22 is better in BVR, that's all. So everything has plus & minus points, strengths & weaknesses, simple.

Okay, and in any case the Su-57 is yet to exist.

People like Mr. Hostage are in perfect position to take hostage of public's mind & opinions.

Yes, but no one else has data. No one is publishing it either. So why rely on unofficial sources with disreputable data?

So nobody is stopping Russians to post a similar video demonstrating the OLS-50m which is larger than AN/AAQ-37. The public will believe what will be shown, simple. I'm an engineer, i'm on side of technology, not on side of Russia or USA. Technical people will tell u plus & minus points while non-tech people seem to take sides sentimentally just bcoz a country supplied arms since decades, LOL!
We are able to see the stars & sun only bcoz they release enough photonic energy to travel in vaccum without particle scattering. Inside the atmosphere it is a different story.
And there is something called aperture size, focal length in analog optics.
In digital optics, the focal plane sensor material matters like PbS, InSb, etc.
View attachment 23026

Whether the sensor is for LWIR, MWIR, SWIR, that matters as there will be different image created for same object.
View attachment 23025
The sensor is IR or UV based that matters.
The altitude of source & target also matter.
then the quantization rate matters, the software capability matters.
View attachment 23027
All these things decide the cost of the system. Just google the price of best DSLR cams, movie cams, telecasting cams. See videos how lenses & cameras are made.
Who doesn't wanna show-off? The Russians don't show-off? You don't see their documentaries it seems. The F-35's BMD video showed digital image processing in engineering mode & u said it right "most fighter IRSTs tend to discard it as clutter" bcoz their software engineers are more ignorant in programming. If our classmate went to IIT & we lagged behind whose fault is it? In my college 3rd year i made a project using DIP so i know what i'm saying.
If the F-35 can help in any way to share a target data, what's wrong in it? Is it a problem or a solution? Do you even know how software solutions work?

That's what I'm also saying. But you are comparing some known data about the F-35 with completely unknown data about Russia and deciding by yourself that Russia is inferior based on data about pretty old previous generation technology. That's very disingenuous.

You are basically showing the HAL and IAF in poor light. Like they didn't know what they are doing with FGFA.

As for the F-35's IR capabilities, it's more about the F-35's ability to network and use offboard systems that allows it to use IR detectors in various ways, it has nothing to do with the IR detector itself. It can do the same with OLS-35 with the right software.

You have wonderful data on cost & procurements. Rich people are everywhere, we all have read about Russian Czars.
But Russia, a frozen popsicle country is having vast experience being weapon mongers since the WW era & India being a tropical country has vast experience in getting used, import dependency, corrupt govt. officials, citizens challenging eachother, inter-state racism, etc
India has lots of potential, global CEOs but all running after dollars, pounds, euros
India has lots of money but in secret accounts of corrupt people.
We Indians after 7 decades of independence talk of democracy & can't overthrow a monarch family
Israel, another tiny heat-scortched desert country, surrounded by enemies has survived well.

???

No, technically i'm talking about how many Lumens of photonic energy is reaching the sensor from what distance, what type of sensor it is & whether the combo of H/w & S/w intelligently tracks it, classifies it & then decides to ignore it or straight away irgones it as clutter.
Bigger source will be detected at larger distance, smaller source will be detected at smaller distance.
So if BM's plume is detected from 1300Km in 10x digital zoom then a jet's plume could be detected in range of say 300-500Km easily, but it depends on so many technical & environmental factors i mentioned. And the Russians are yet to share their demo.
BTW if gas stove sized thruster lit up in vaccum of space then it would be equally easily picked up as any other big source as long as the photonic energy reaches the sensor, same way as we can see a star light years away.

The bold part: Exactly.

The Russians are yet to "demonstrate", but they don't do such things. For the US, the F-35 is an export-grade program. For the Russians, the Su-57, at least their version, is not. And even data about their export grade stuff is not easily available. We will have to wait years for it. Post which there will be questions of authenticity.

But you've already decided on your own that Russian tech sucks by default. At least we know the basic capabilities of the Su-57 are far above that of the F-22's, again, as per the USAF themselves.

It's the same reason why I entered the forum back in 2013, people were comparing things (EF vs Rafale) without any real data on it. Only tenders and exercises could actually give us the minimum data necessary to come to a conclusion. Now you are repeating the same with US and Russia.

You want to talk about the F-35, great, knock yourself out, I support it. You want to speculate about Russia, go right ahead, I do the same. But you wanna compare two systems based on hearsay, you can see why it is easily challenged.

You literally compare apples and oranges and expect people to take you seriously? Yeah, some people will fall for it. Not me.

And yes, going back to the earlier point about the J-20, when photons reach the sensor, it is detected, it doesn't matter if it is IR or radar. But the E-3 is unable to detect the J-20 because photons are unable to reach it. Shouldn't that get your gears moving? In a world bereft of data, observation is key. Blanket statements get discarded easily.

I don't trust either of them for different reasons

Don't take what I said personally. Your posts simply didn't show an unbiased opinion to me, so I challenged your assertions.

 

[randomradio]

How stealthy AMCA going to be seeing it's design and size? Will it be anywhere close to f35 or f22?
@Bhartiya Sainik
@randomradio

Based on a very old comment, ADA's goal is to match them. But there's no data.

At least ADA claims they want to use more sophisticated stealth techniques than what's been shown on the F-22. So more closer to what's been shown on the F-35 and Su-57, with radar absorbent structures instead of just RAM and shaping. Hopefully we will see more advances as time passes, particularly on Mk2. What we do know is the IAF is happy with AMCA's RCS and IR management on paper, which is why the project is proceeding.

The real challenge will be electronics though. Of course, the engine as well. Signature management in these two areas is crucial. But while the engine will come from an experienced design house, the electronics will come out of the Indian industry. So the greatest risk is in electronics.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Regardless of what your experience is, data is generated based on facts, not because you feel like it.

So are you DoD guy who is claiming to know the facts? What are your sources, credibility, qualification?
If other's experience & qualification is not valid for u then why should others listen to your RANDOM RADIO?
You seem to be a non-tech guy unable to explain technical things technically hence disregarding my knowledge & experience.
Do you go to doctor's clinic, bank, court, shops, etc & tell them this same statement?

Yes, but no one else has data. No one is publishing it either. So why rely on unofficial sources with disreputable data?

3rd time let me ask u - are you DoD guy who is claiming to know the facts? What are your sources, credibility, qualification?
This is an unofficial hobby forum for common citizens, what do you expect?
The top military people also have to be tactical, diplomatic as per geopolitical situations.

That's what I'm also saying. But you are comparing some known data about the F-35 with completely unknown data about Russia and deciding by yourself that Russia is inferior based on data about pretty old previous generation technology. That's very disingenuous.

So why the data about Russia is unknown? Since cold war days USA & Russia have competed in military tech. Fortunately USA got bigger better R&D ecosystem with allies, more than Russia, that's it. But i did appreciate aptitude & attitude of Russians.
And if you can favor Russia, Su-57, that's also deciding by yourself without disclosing your profile & sources, your choice & belief, i don't have any issues with that. But you don't know formal communication with strangers.
You don't introduce yourself,
You don't use any pictures, diagrams, etc to explain technical things,
You directly discredit others experience, knowledge after after they have tried their best to explain things conceptually
then you use insulting words like this, YOU ARE INSULTING & DISCREDITING YOURSELF. IF THIS WAS F2F DISCUSSION, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOWN THE DOOR BY NOW.

@EVERYONE, please tag site owners/moderators here, thanks.

You are basically showing the HAL and IAF in poor light. Like they didn't know what they are doing with FGFA.

LOL! When did i say that HAL/IAF doesn't know what they are doing with FGFA? It is good they realized & pulled out of PAKFA. I already told u that a techie like me doesn't take sides of country, products, people & neither will a techie woring in DRDO, HAL, etc but they are under oath & orders to keep quiet not to reveal any loopholes.
To a common tax payer citizen the internal structure of DoD doesn't matter - HAL, DRDO, NAL, ADA, who does what exactly. In parliament of every country including USA, questions are asked on timely development of assets & wise utilization of funds. Whenever F-22, B-2, F-117, F-35 crashed, questions were asked by representatives of citizens. Do you want to totalitarian/autocratic/communist regime not answerable to public?
And HAL, IAF, etc are in fact in a poor light crisis, entire world knows about our depleted squads, delayed projects, scams like Bofors, Rafale, etc.

As for the F-35's IR capabilities, it's more about the F-35's ability to network and use offboard systems that allows it to use IR detectors in various ways, it has nothing to do with the IR detector itself. It can do the same with OLS-35 with the right software.

" ability to network and use offboard systems" means all the H/w & S/w integration which i explained. Every component matters.
" nothing to do with the IR detector itself. " - You just discredited all the R&D after AN/AAQ-37 DAS & AN/AAQ-40 EOTS
"It can do the same with OLS-35 with the right software" - So tell the Russians to use their computer programming skills & demonstrate publicly, who's stopping them?
Whatever i explained with pictures bounced off your head. This is how non-techies are arrogant but they occupy management positions, create bad leadership & country suffers.

The Russians are yet to "demonstrate", but they don't do such things. For the US, the F-35 is an export-grade program. For the Russians, the Su-57, at least their version, is not. And even data about their export grade stuff is not easily available. We will have to wait years for it. Post which there will be questions of authenticity.

Selling product depends on demonstration. People even do MBA for that.
"their version" - the domestic version is obviously superior than export version. What are you talking?
We don't have luxury to wait for years looking at possibility of 2 front war.

But you've already decided on your own that Russian tech sucks by default. At least we know the basic capabilities of the Su-57 are far above that of the F-22's, again, as per the USAF themselves.

What does "sucks" mean, i don't use such slangs.
BTW if u support Russian tech & J-20 so much then explain why did we choose GE414 for MWF, AMCA, TEDBF when we already make AL-31 for MKI & China used AL-31 for their J-10, JF-17, J-20 & so did Russia for all current jets till Su-57 & even for UCAV S-70.
Every member of an unofficial forum decides their belief & none of us have to give an official public speech. It is like different people like different cars, phones, laptops, etc. But people like you wanna accuse & fight with someone just bcoz they didn't prefer a product which u chose
I did give credit to both F-22 & Su-37 in BVR & dogfight respectively. Rest, time will tell, but if time would tell then it would mean huge war b/w Russia & USA, perhaps world war.
Whatever documentaries & even news i have watched in last 25 years since 1990s, both USA & Russia have praised eachother's products & criticized too claiming their product is better. Sometimes the statements are diplomatic, sometimes tactical.
They did joint excercises with F-15 & Su-27 but today they can't do it with F-22 & Su-57, but F-22 Vs Rafale & others too perhaps was done.

It's the same reason why I entered the forum back in 2013, people were comparing things (EF vs Rafale) without any real data on it. Only tenders and exercises could actually give us the minimum data necessary to come to a conclusion. Now you are repeating the same with US and Russia.

Is this a complain lodging forum for DoD?
You entered this forum in 2013 as some kind of savior to educate complaining people?
The data from tenders & excecises are published publicly but the public opinion on procurements & own R&D is always divided.
For example, when we did Ex Indradhanush with UK, they praised our Su-30MKI, we praised their EF-2000, but there have been hot debates too.
"you are repeating...." - i didn't invite you to reply to me, nor do i reply to everybody, and I REPLY TECHNICALLY NOT PERSONALLY WHICH U DIDN'T LEARN SINCE 2013 IN 9+ YEARS.

You want to talk about the F-35, great, knock yourself out, I support it. You want to speculate about Russia, go right ahead, I do the same. But you wanna compare two systems based on hearsay, you can see why it is easily challenged.

You literally compare apples and oranges and expect people to take you seriously? Yeah, some people will fall for it. Not me.

"hearsay"? 4th time i'm asking u - are u DoD? What is your source, credibility, qualification? Random Guy as Radio Jockey? Please forgive me, i have patience limit & self-respect too.
Unofficial hobby forums are not meant to challenge eachother. People have their opinions, may disagree, then walk away.
If you choose a particular car/phone/laptop, do you accuse & fight with others if they choose something else?
Why are you the only member who is taking me seriously & accusing me & fighting? Don't fall for me? Walk away with your opinion.
DoD won't consult me or you either ever, unless u r part of DoD.
BTW, we all consumes both apples & oranges without comparison Yummy!
And our DoD is also consuming Russian, American, French, Israeli, etc stuff - apples, oranges, grapes, bananna, etc, there also public opinion is divided.

E-3 is unable to detect the J-20 because photons are unable to reach it. Shouldn't that get your gears moving? In a world bereft of data, observation is key. Blanket statements get discarded easily.

Why should i give a damn if American E-3 can detect Chinese J-20?
Mr. Hostage has taken your observation as hostage perhaps.
Why r u so pro-J-20 & defending it? Are you *censored* or pro-*censored*?

"Don't take what I said personally. Your posts simply didn't show an unbiased opinion to me, so I challenged your assertions."
Thanks for accepting that your intention is to challenge others in an unofficial hobby forum. That's immatured & offensive behavior If u r non-techie &/or don't use ilustrations for discussion, then not others' fault.
And i did show Unbiased opinion -
when supporting F-22 & Su-57 in BVR & dogfight respectively
when sharing data about both OLS & AN/AAQ sensors
when showing illustration of effect of Russian IRST
when praising Su-57 for items which western jets don't have yet
when i asked u if u watch Russian documentaries or not, which i sincerely watch like RT, Combat-Approved, Wings of Russia, etc, that too since 1990s. From your replies it seems u were not even born or were a toddler in 1990s.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Usually he's a very affable person especially after 8 pm. I wonder why did he offend you. Perhaps he feels threatened by your knowledge.

 

[randomradio]

So are you DoD guy who is claiming to know the facts? What are your sources, credibility, qualification?
If other's experience & qualification is not valid for u then why should others listen to your RANDOM RADIO?
You seem to be a non-tech guy unable to explain technical things technically hence disregarding my knowledge & experience.
Do you go to doctor's clinic, bank, court, shops, etc & tell them this same statement?


3rd time let me ask u - are you DoD guy who is claiming to know the facts? What are your sources, credibility, qualification?
This is an unofficial hobby forum for common citizens, what do you expect?
The top military people also have to be tactical, diplomatic as per geopolitical situations.


So why the data about Russia is unknown? Since cold war days USA & Russia have competed in military tech. Fortunately USA got bigger better R&D ecosystem with allies, more than Russia, that's it. But i did appreciate aptitude & attitude of Russians.
And if you can favor Russia, Su-57, that's also deciding by yourself without disclosing your profile & sources, your choice & belief, i don't have any issues with that. But you don't know formal communication with strangers.
You don't introduce yourself,
You don't use any pictures, diagrams, etc to explain technical things,
You directly discredit others experience, knowledge after after they have tried their best to explain things conceptually
then you use insulting words like this, YOU ARE INSULTING & DISCREDITING YOURSELF. IF THIS WAS F2F DISCUSSION, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOWN THE DOOR BY NOW.
View attachment 23037
@EVERYONE, please tag site owners/moderators here, thanks.


LOL! When did i say that HAL/IAF doesn't know what they are doing with FGFA? It is good they realized & pulled out of PAKFA. I already told u that a techie like me doesn't take sides of country, products, people & neither will a techie woring in DRDO, HAL, etc but they are under oath & orders to keep quiet not to reveal any loopholes.
To a common tax payer citizen the internal structure of DoD doesn't matter - HAL, DRDO, NAL, ADA, who does what exactly. In parliament of every country including USA, questions are asked on timely development of assets & wise utilization of funds. Whenever F-22, B-2, F-117, F-35 crashed, questions were asked by representatives of citizens. Do you want to totalitarian/autocratic/communist regime not answerable to public?
And HAL, IAF, etc are in fact in a poor light crisis, entire world knows about our depleted squads, delayed projects, scams like Bofors, Rafale, etc.


" ability to network and use offboard systems" means all the H/w & S/w integration which i explained. Every component matters.
" nothing to do with the IR detector itself. " - You just discredited all the R&D after AN/AAQ-37 DAS & AN/AAQ-40 EOTS
"It can do the same with OLS-35 with the right software" - So tell the Russians to use their computer programming skills & demonstrate publicly, who's stopping them?
Whatever i explained with pictures bounced off your head. This is how non-techies are arrogant but they occupy management positions, create bad leadership & country suffers.


Selling product depends on demonstration. People even do MBA for that.
"their version" - the domestic version is obviously superior than export version. What are you talking?
We don't have luxury to wait for years looking at possibility of 2 front war.


What does "sucks" mean, i don't use such slangs.
BTW if u support Russian tech & J-20 so much then explain why did we choose GE414 for MWF, AMCA, TEDBF when we already make AL-31 for MKI & China used AL-31 for their J-10, JF-17, J-20 & so did Russia for all current jets till Su-57 & even for UCAV S-70.
Every member of an unofficial forum decides their belief & none of us have to give an official public speech. It is like different people like different cars, phones, laptops, etc. But people like you wanna accuse & fight with someone just bcoz they didn't prefer a product which u chose
I did give credit to both F-22 & Su-37 in BVR & dogfight respectively. Rest, time will tell, but if time would tell then it would mean huge war b/w Russia & USA, perhaps world war.
Whatever documentaries & even news i have watched in last 25 years since 1990s, both USA & Russia have praised eachother's products & criticized too claiming their product is better. Sometimes the statements are diplomatic, sometimes tactical.
They did joint excercises with F-15 & Su-27 but today they can't do it with F-22 & Su-57, but F-22 Vs Rafale & others too perhaps was done.

View attachment 23042


Is this a complain lodging forum for DoD?
You entered this forum in 2013 as some kind of savior to educate complaining people?
The data from tenders & excecises are published publicly but the public opinion on procurements & own R&D is always divided.
For example, when we did Ex Indradhanush with UK, they praised our Su-30MKI, we praised their EF-2000, but there have been hot debates too.
"you are repeating...." - i didn't invite you to reply to me, nor do i reply to everybody, and I REPLY TECHNICALLY NOT PERSONALLY WHICH U DIDN'T LEARN SINCE 2013 IN 9+ YEARS.


"hearsay"? 4th time i'm asking u - are u DoD? What is your source, credibility, qualification? Random Guy as Radio Jockey? Please forgive me, i have patience limit & self-respect too.
Unofficial hobby forums are not meant to challenge eachother. People have their opinions, may disagree, then walk away.
If you choose a particular car/phone/laptop, do you accuse & fight with others if they choose something else?
Why are you the only member who is taking me seriously & accusing me & fighting? Don't fall for me? Walk away with your opinion.
DoD won't consult me or you either ever, unless u r part of DoD.
BTW, we all consumes both apples & oranges without comparison Yummy!
And our DoD is also consuming Russian, American, French, Israeli, etc stuff - apples, oranges, grapes, bananna, etc, there also public opinion is divided.

Why should i give a damn if American E-3 can detect Chinese J-20?
Mr. Hostage has taken your observation as hostage perhaps.
Why r u so pro-J-20 & defending it? Are you *censored* or pro-*censored*?

"Don't take what I said personally. Your posts simply didn't show an unbiased opinion to me, so I challenged your assertions."
Thanks for accepting that your intention is to challenge others in an unofficial hobby forum. That's immatured & offensive behavior If u r non-techie &/or don't use ilustrations for discussion, then not others' fault.
And i did show Unbiased opinion -
when supporting F-22 & Su-57 in BVR & dogfight respectively
when sharing data about both OLS & AN/AAQ sensors
when showing illustration of effect of Russian IRST
when praising Su-57 for items which western jets don't have yet
when i asked u if u watch Russian documentaries or not, which i sincerely watch like RT, Combat-Approved, Wings of Russia, etc, that too since 1990s. From your replies it seems u were not even born or were a toddler in 1990s.

Yeah, you took it personally. Best part, I'm not offended by anything you said because I knew you would reply this way. It's a typical behaviour of people who think they know everything. All I did was ask you to use actual data instead of making blanket statements, and look at the quality of your replies.

No, you didn't post anything that's unbiased. You immediately came off as a fanboy pretending to be unbiased. There are plenty of experts on the Internet who pretend to be unbiased but are actually very, very biased, perhaps even unconsciously, but they are.

Example:
when supporting F-22 & Su-57 in BVR & dogfight respectively

No, that's a biased opinion. Why? Because even the F-22 and Su-57 pilots cannot tell who will win unless they actually fight. What you have done is used Western stereotypes to give the Su-57 the advantage in dog fights and the F-22 in BVR. I don't even know where such a ridiculous notion came from. You've basically dismissed the F-22's ability to dog fight and the Su-57's ability to lead BVR simply based on a whim. That's not how the world works. There is quite literally no basis to have such an opinion if you consider yourself an expert. The real answer is "I don't know". But that's too hard for you to say. Plus you haven't even considered the other possibilities, the Su-57 could win both, the F-22 could win both, or the opposite of what you claimed, where the Su-57 wins BVR and the F-22 wins dog fight. So what kind of information do you have that you can 100% come to the conclusion that only the possibility you presented is true? My answer is I have no frigging clue. That's being unbiased.

Similarly, when you say the F-35 has better electronics, better DAS etc... Again, no, you have no clue at all. You have zero data to come to such a conclusion. You are just making claims and not even presenting it as your personal speculations.

And, no, you don't need to be an expert on anything to know you can't have an opinion without actually having any data. You can speculate, you can give your reasons, use logic, but instead you decided to claim the F-22 and F-35 have something and then decided the others have none of that simply based on a whim. That is not what "experts" do.

What if I tell you the radar, IRST, OLS, weapons and EW suite (all bigger and better, with the latest hardware) on the Su-57 are a generation ahead of anything that's present on the F-22 and F-35 today? Wouldn't you ask me for proof or data? Or would you react the way you just did?

Just so you know the Americans had developed Kalman filter based IR trackers that could detect, track and cue lasers on to BMs back in the 80s as part of the SDI. It could even use the longitudinal oscillations of the plume against the body to improve track. So it's nothing really special today. Also the F-35 DAS's range isn't particularly exceptional because the technology is already old compared to today's standards. For example, the EOTS was 10+ years behind competitors even before IOC. Pretty much all of the F-35's IR sensors require upgrades to new designs. It's part of their plan to replace such hardware every 6 years, but that's been ruined due to development issues.

Similarly their radar and EW suite are also designs from early 2000s, finalised only by the late 2000s. I'm basically saying the F-35's hardware has been operationally outdated for the last 5 years, and in labs it's over 10 years. Which is why the Pentagon is planning a hardware refresh by 2027, and they are in a hurry. You will be more impressed by what's on the Gripen E once info is released. The new MAW-300/PAWS-2 combo is way more advanced than what's on the F-35. MKI's planned DCMAWS was also half a generation ahead compared to the F-35's, too bad it didn't work out then.

In the military, it's pretty much taken for granted that everybody buys or steals technology to get to where they want, especially so when electronics development is largely led by civilians, so it's taken for granted that pretty much everybody has similar hardware. Most of the differences come from system design and software. So it's all about the speed at which you operationally deploy technology that matters more, which is why the Chinese perform hardware refreshes every 5+ years, the fastest in the world. The J-10s have finished going through three, with the fourth in progress, the J-11 family has finished going through four. The Rafale is in its second refresh. The MKI is yet to go through its 1st one.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Yeah, you took it personally. Best part, I'm not offended by anything you said because I knew you would reply this way. It's a typical behaviour of people who think they know everything. All I did was ask you to use actual data instead of making blanket statements, and look at the quality of your replies.

If someone will insult me, i will take it personally but everybody can see who is twisting the words.
If u knew i would reply this way then u must have some magic voodoo powers n u r foolish & immatured to continue insulting others.
I mentioned I'm common citizen, so i don't now everything but technical qualification has its advantage in technical topics.
My quality of replies include illustrations, diagrams, explanations, not personal attacks & jealousy.

No, you didn't post anything that's unbiased. You immediately came off as a fanboy pretending to be unbiased. There are plenty of experts on the Internet who pretend to be unbiased but are actually very, very biased, perhaps even unconsciously, but they are.

Example:
when supporting F-22 & Su-57 in BVR & dogfight respectively

Yes i'm fanboy bcoz this is fan-site And i'm fan of F-22 since 1995 when we got color-TV & cable-TV arrived in our colony & Discovery channel used to telecast WINGS program. What were u in 1995 - unborn, toddler? Can't help if someone has a problem with F-22.
I'm not giving application or exam for armed forces here, i don't need anybody's validation.
I already said that DoD won't consult me or u so no question of expertise here.
Better join forum of Psychology

No, that's a biased opinion. Why? Because even the F-22 and Su-57 pilots cannot tell who will win unless they actually fight. What you have done is used Western stereotypes to give the Su-57 the advantage in dog fights and the F-22 in BVR. I don't even know where such a ridiculous notion came from. You've basically dismissed the F-22's ability to dog fight and the Su-57's ability to lead BVR simply based on a whim. That's not how the world works. There is quite literally no basis to have such an opinion if you consider yourself an expert. The real answer is "I don't know". But that's too hard for you to say. Plus you haven't even considered the other possibilities, the Su-57 could win both, the F-22 could win both, or the opposite of what you claimed, where the Su-57 wins BVR and the F-22 wins dog fight. So what kind of information do you have that you can 100% come to the conclusion that only the possibility you presented is true? My answer is I have no frigging clue. That's being unbiased.

Oh! i didn't know every member must take tution classes from you before writing anything here in UNBIASED way

Similarly, when you say the F-35 has better electronics, better DAS etc... Again, no, you have no clue at all. You have zero data to come to such a conclusion. You are just making claims and not even presenting it as your personal speculations.

If u hav clue & data then pls present
Conclusion? claims?

And, no, you don't need to be an expert on anything to know you can't have an opinion without actually having any data. You can speculate, you can give your reasons, use logic, but instead you decided to claim the F-22 and F-35 have something and then decided the others have none of that simply based on a whim. That is not what "experts" do.

My technical qualification is my technical logic for a technical topic. People like me only work in ADA, DRDO, HAL, etc. My college senior worked on LCA for few years. So u don't lecture me, look at ur own qualification, logic 1st.

What if I tell you the radar, IRST, OLS, weapons and EW suite (all bigger and better, with the latest hardware) on the Su-57 are a generation ahead of anything that's present on the F-22 and F-35 today? Wouldn't you ask me for proof or data? Or would you react the way you just did?

OMG, see u r still so big defensive fan of Su-57 with which i don't have any issues but u hav problem if i'm fanboy of F-22
I won't ask for proof bcoz we are common citizens incapable of arranging real proof unless we are spy like James Bond 007.
On a fan site all we can do is give links, illustrations, diagrams from online media. U & others can count how many u & i have given.

Just so you know the Americans had developed Kalman filter based IR trackers that could detect, track and cue lasers on to BMs back in the 80s as part of the SDI. It could even use the longitudinal oscillations of the plume against the body to improve track. So it's nothing really special today. Also the F-35 DAS's range isn't particularly exceptional because the technology is already old compared to today's standards. For example, the EOTS was 10+ years behind competitors even before IOC. Pretty much all of the F-35's IR sensors require upgrades to new designs. It's part of their plan to replace such hardware every 6 years, but that's been ruined due to development issues.

Whether the technology is old or new, ultimately what matters publicly is the quoting of specifications & demo if possible.
As per public data online the OLS sensors are quoted at less than 50/100 Kms when approaching/chasing target. While F-35 videos on YouTube shows higher range. So what do you expect the public to do - arrange proof further, use logic further?
During the cold-war days USA had SDI program benefiting EO sensors, Russia also did whatever they could but they are yet to give any public demo yet. In Russian documentaries they have shown SOAR & SOLO sensors "just kept on the table" rather than giving a DAS like demo, what do u expect from public - again arrange proof, use logic?

Similarly their radar and EW suite are also designs from early 2000s, finalised only by the late 2000s. I'm basically saying the F-35's hardware has been operationally outdated for the last 5 years, and in labs it's over 10 years. Which is why the Pentagon is planning a hardware refresh by 2027, and they are in a hurry. You will be more impressed by what's on the Gripen E once info is released. The new MAW-300/PAWS-2 combo is way more advanced than what's on the F-35. MKI's planned DCMAWS was also half a generation ahead compared to the F-35's, too bad it didn't work out then.

If we can replace older radars by our UTTAM then u think other countries won't have MLU?
Trust me i'm not some personal West/USA fan, i'm a techie, i'm tech fan. But USA is always in a hurry for everything bcoz they are management oriented people. They understood after World War itself that to lead the world they have to lead in as many tech areas as possible - aviation, defence, automobiles, computers & electronics, commercial & consumer goods, even food industry like McDonalds, Starbucks, etc. Most of the top universities are in USA. Most H/w & S/w companies are from USA. Internet (by DARPA), microchips (Intel, AMD), OS(Windows) are from USA. Indian IT industry mostly caters to USA & other western countries.
This website is also hosted on a server in San-Francisco & not in Moscow or Beijing u know that?
Where is Russian stuff in how much quantity at our home & industry?
Russia wanted base as India & USA wanted base as Pakistan during cold war, that's it. Russia, France, USA, EU, Israel, etc have sold arms to both sides of border. Every country has their own intrests to run their economy.
I will be very happy if something can defeat F-35 EOTS & DAS bcoz that's natural evolution & competition. Nothing stays on top forever. F-35's AN/AAQ-37 DAS & AN/AAQ-40 EOTS were developed in 1990s & MAW-300/PAWS-2 & DC-MAWS have been developed in last decade, 20 years later. What comparison are you doing? Obviously the F-35 will require some upgrade to stay ahead. And to stay ahead of world they are on track not just to upgrade their sensors but to build another new jet of next gen, that's the bigger picture to notice. And we are still struggling at sub-systems level.

But the truth is that 1st the F-22 & then F-35 used the 6-axis MAWS then Russia implemented it exactly on those positions in Su-57 & Su-35, then China did it on J-20 & now we may do it in AMCA & other jets. If Russian tech is so good then why IAF/HAL are today still struggling for MAWS & not implementing SOAR & SOLO sensors like on Su-35-S & save time?


J-20's EOTS is also on chin, AMCA's EOTS will also be on chin.
Why did they consult Russia for DC-MAWS locations when Su-30MKM applied MAW-300 timely? And now news says 12 more MKIs on order.







If Malaysian engineers can apply their own logic & implement MAW-300 timely then why HAL/DRDO/ADA/NAL is lagging behind still when we got the MKI years ahead of MKM?

In the military, it's pretty much taken for granted that everybody buys or steals technology to get to where they want, especially so when electronics development is largely led by civilians, so it's taken for granted that pretty much everybody has similar hardware. Most of the differences come from system design and software. So it's all about the speed at which you operationally deploy technology that matters more, which is why the Chinese perform hardware refreshes every 5+ years, the fastest in the world. The J-10s have finished going through three, with the fourth in progress, the J-11 family has finished going through four. The Rafale is in its second refresh. The MKI is yet to go through its 1st one.

So u only have given proof now how bad is situation for IAF/HAL , you can't accuse others of putting IAF/HAl in bad light or claiming & concluding something illogically. And still u didn't tell us if u r student, professor, journalist, DoD, spy

 

[_Anonymous_]

I actually feel bad for resident storyteller in spite of our differences. I mean I would be the first to admit he is genuinely knowledgeable in state of the art systems serving various services around the world including India ,their workings etc except he let's his delusions interfere with his knowledge every now & then prompting flights of fancy which in the recent past has taken a turn for the worse .

But this should in no way reflect on his qualifications. I mean I remember Sancho the very anti thesis of resident story teller & in fact the resident complaint box go head on with the latter on innumerable occasions but at no point of time were his qualifications brought in .

Yet , this is the second or 3rd member in as many weeks questioning his qualifications . I wonder why ?

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Usually he's a very affable person especially after 8 pm. I wonder why did he offend you. Perhaps he feels threatened by your knowledge.

I'm an average ordinary citizen, IT engineer but not big hotshot, here for some time-pass, not to write thesis, seek approval & have PhD.
I'm new member, he is old member, hence the ego perhaps, can't even introduce himself & calls others illogical, concluding, claiming, etc.
Dear god pls hav mercy on all

 

[_Anonymous_]

I'm an average ordinary citizen, IT engineer but not big hotshot, here for some time-pass, not to write thesis, seek approval & have PhD.
I'm new member, he is old member, hence the ego perhaps, can't even introduce himself & calls others illogical, concluding, claiming, etc.
Dear god pls hav mercy on all

Well he's on record stating he used to be with a DRDO lab a long long time ago ( post since deleted ) . I'm venturing it was the ADE for the output of both seem to match each other but that's only me & my opinion . I could be wrong too .

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Well he's on record stating he used to be with a DRDO lab a long long time ago ( post since deleted ) . I'm venturing it was the ADE for the output of both seem to match each other but that's only me & my opinion . I could be wrong too .

Really? Retired from DRDO? long long time ago? How to verify that record? This is very dangerous situation then . Military or Ex-military guys don't waste time on unofficial fansites at 3/4am, they have their own professional friend circle & family life too.
If he is elder & DRDO techie too then must be
- able to introduce himself
- expert in formal communication & avoiding huge paragraphs of psychological comments
- able to use lots of technical illustrations, diagrams, high level knowledge like seen in engineering colleges
- ideally should not exist on unofficial forums, grabbing attention, leaking something accidentally

Like i mentioned, i had a college senior who worked on LCA in mid-2000s, told us some good generic stuff nothing secret. So i can easily make out who is genuine techie & who is just grabbing attention.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Really? Retired from DRDO? long long time ago? How to verify that record? This is very dangerous situation then . Military or Ex-military guys don't waste time on unofficial fansites at 3/4am, they have their own professional friend circle & family life too.
If he is elder & DRDO techie too then must be
- able to introduce himself
- expert in formal communication & avoiding huge paragraphs of psychological comments
- able to use lots of technical illustrations, diagrams, high level knowledge like seen in engineering colleges
- ideally should not exist on unofficial forums, grabbing attention, leaking something accidentally

Like i mentioned, i had a college senior who worked on LCA in mid-2000s, told us some good generic stuff nothing secret. So i can easily make out who is genuine techie & who is just wasting time.

Well you ought to post your questions directly to him . I've informed you of what I know.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Well you ought to post your questions directly to him . I've informed you of what I know.

He is afraid to introduce himself, but thanks for the information.
I should expect another psychological set of insults & accusations from him anytime now

 

[randomradio]

If someone will insult me, i will take it personally but everybody can see who is twisting the words.
If u knew i would reply this way then u must have some magic voodoo powers n u r foolish & immatured to continue insulting others.
I mentioned I'm common citizen, so i don't now everything but technical qualification has its advantage in technical topics.
My quality of replies include illustrations, diagrams, explanations, not personal attacks & jealousy.


Yes i'm fanboy bcoz this is fan-site And i'm fan of F-22 since 1995 when we got color-TV & cable-TV arrived in our colony & Discovery channel used to telecast WINGS program. What were u in 1995 - unborn, toddler? Can't help if someone has a problem with F-22.
I'm not giving application or exam for armed forces here, i don't need anybody's validation.
I already said that DoD won't consult me or u so no question of expertise here.
Better join forum of Psychology


Oh! i didn't know every member must take tution classes from you before writing anything here in UNBIASED way


If u hav clue & data then pls present
Conclusion? claims?


My technical qualification is my technical logic for a technical topic. People like me only work in ADA, DRDO, HAL, etc. My college senior worked on LCA for few years. So u don't lecture me, look at ur own qualification, logic 1st.


OMG, see u r still so big defensive fan of Su-57 with which i don't have any issues but u hav problem if i'm fanboy of F-22
I won't ask for proof bcoz we are common citizens incapable of arranging real proof unless we are spy like James Bond 007.
On a fan site all we can do is give links, illustrations, diagrams from online media. U & others can count how many u & i have given.


Whether the technology is old or new, ultimately what matters publicly is the quoting of specifications & demo if possible.
As per public data online the OLS sensors are quoted at less than 50/100 Kms when approaching/chasing target. While F-35 videos on YouTube shows higher range. So what do you expect the public to do - arrange proof further, use logic further?
During the cold-war days USA had SDI program benefiting EO sensors, Russia also did whatever they could but they are yet to give any public demo yet. In Russian documentaries they have shown SOAR & SOLO sensors "just kept on the table" rather than giving a DAS like demo, what do u expect from public - again arrange proof, use logic?



If we can replace older radars by our UTTAM then u think other countries won't have MLU?
Trust me i'm not some personal West/USA fan, i'm a techie, i'm tech fan. But USA is always in a hurry for everything bcoz they are management oriented people. They understood after World War itself that to lead the world they have to lead in as many tech areas as possible - aviation, defence, automobiles, computers & electronics, commercial & consumer goods, even food industry like McDonalds, Starbucks, etc. Most of the top universities are in USA. Most H/w & S/w companies are from USA. Internet (by DARPA), microchips (Intel, AMD), OS(Windows) are from USA. Indian IT industry mostly caters to USA & other western countries.
This website is also hosted on a server in San-Francisco & not in Moscow or Beijing u know that?
Where is Russian stuff in how much quantity at our home & industry?
Russia wanted base as India & USA wanted base as Pakistan during cold war, that's it. Russia, France, USA, EU, Israel, etc have sold arms to both sides of border. Every country has their own intrests to run their economy.
I will be very happy if something can defeat F-35 EOTS & DAS bcoz that's natural evolution & competition. Nothing stays on top forever. F-35's AN/AAQ-37 DAS & AN/AAQ-40 EOTS were developed in 1990s & MAW-300/PAWS-2 & DC-MAWS have been developed in last decade, 20 years later. What comparison are you doing? Obviously the F-35 will require some upgrade to stay ahead. And to stay ahead of world they are on track not just to upgrade their sensors but to build another new jet of next gen, that's the bigger picture to notice. And we are still struggling at sub-systems level.

But the truth is that 1st the F-22 & then F-35 used the 6-axis MAWS then Russia implemented it exactly on those positions in Su-57 & Su-35, then China did it on J-20 & now we may do it in AMCA & other jets. If Russian tech is so good then why IAF/HAL are today still struggling for MAWS & not implementing SOAR & SOLO sensors like on Su-35-S & save time?
View attachment 23055

J-20's EOTS is also on chin, AMCA's EOTS will also be on chin.
Why did they consult Russia for DC-MAWS locations when Su-30MKM applied MAW-300 timely? And now news says 12 more MKIs on order.

View attachment 23047
View attachment 23048
View attachment 23051
View attachment 23049
View attachment 23050

If Malaysian engineers can apply their own logic & implement MAW-300 timely then why HAL/DRDO/ADA/NAL is lagging behind still when we got the MKI years ahead of MKM?

View attachment 23052
View attachment 23053
View attachment 23054


So u only have given proof now how bad is situation for IAF/HAL , you can't accuse others of putting IAF/HAl in bad light or claiming & concluding something illogically. And still u didn't tell us if u r student, professor, journalist, DoD, spy

You're all over the place. Impressive as all those pictures and images are, they have been posted and posted again multiple times.

I'll just stick to the topic you wanted to discuss, you seem to be way too emotional about this to discuss anything else. On the internet, you will be called out quite easily.

In any case, Saab's MAWS didn't meet IAF requirements because it was UV-based, the Israeli one did, which was IR. For whatever reasons, technological of course, even Saab is using Israeli IR MAWS on Gripen E. And Su-35's MAWS cannot be installed on the MKI, the same hasn't been done on Russia's Su-30SM either. Plus neither the Russians nor the Indians want to make holes in the Su-30's airframe in exchange for airframe integrity, which meant even the application of the bigger Israeli DC-MAWS wasn't possible. Maybe the Russians will add MAWS to Su-30SM2 and Su-34M, with airframe modifications, maybe. The Malaysians have no such qualms with regards to airframe integrity because they don't plan on using the jet for as long and with as much gusto as the IAF wants to, plus they were fine with UV MAWS.

We also don't want to use Russian electronics because they generally "steal" some components that go into electronics and it becomes a diplomatic problem for us. Countries generally bypass IPR for national security reasons, which India doesn't. Plus even the Russian one would likely have failed to beat the Israeli MAWS for the MKI. Now we are going for pod-based solutions for MAWS and EA. Chalk it up to bad luck if you want.

The Russians have invested most of their R&D money into the Su-57, so that's where their best tech is. While the IRST uses QWIP with an unknown but high resolution, the MAWS is UV-based, which is not suitable for the IAF. Plus a lot of what they make for themselves is not for export, also why the FGFA and MKI, along with many other platforms we buy from them have Indo-Western electronics. We also avoid having to deal with their bureaucracy for the servicing of the electronics.

The Su-57 also has an EOTS below the canopy along with the nose-mounted OLS.

PS: I'm not a "fan" of Russian, French or American aircraft, I simply analyse information as it comes. And on forums, I generally take a contrarian view so there's actual exchange of ideas, regardless of whether I support the same idea or not. As it stands today, there isn't a more advanced jet than the Su-57M around, at least in 2025. NGAD, Tempest, J-XX, FCAS etc may exceed it in 10-20 years, but right now the F-22 and F-35 aren't suitable enough to compete with it.

 

[Bon Plan]

You don't introduce yourself,
You don't use any pictures, diagrams, etc to explain technical things,
You directly discredit others experience, knowledge after after they have tried their best to explain things conceptually
then you use insulting words like this, YOU ARE INSULTING & DISCREDITING YOURSELF. IF THIS WAS F2F DISCUSSION, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOWN THE DOOR BY NOW.
View attachment 23037
@EVERYONE, please tag site owners/moderators here, thanks.

You really don't know him.
And you may be a little bit noob in this forum to act like this.