MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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Operating costs & maintance issues.
Just think why USAF still using +52 & B1b bombers along with ultra advanced & worlds only TRUE STEALTH AIRCRAFT B2?
Not necessary. The Americans will not sell their quality products, and there are better/more advanced alternatives to their current crop of fighter jets.
Anyway, they don't give technology, period. Only the Europeans and Israelis provide technology.
CDS... not great not bad political appointee nontheless... army chief sound & act more professional. Dhanoa neither act or sound professional. New air chief is good. Navy always had professional at top position cause most are from technical side.
Just look at retired Indian military twitter warrior community.... nothing but embarrassment. India should put a ban on in service social media activity or taking any other job or anything for at least 10 years post retirement.
The B-52 can carry nearly twice as much ordnance as the B-2 (31.5 tons of bombs compared to 18 tons); the B-1B can intervene faster (max speed Mach 1.25 compared to Mach 0.95). So they have different functions; in addition to B-2s being quite rare.
But the F-35 is not rare. They already have a lot of them and are building more at a fast pace. And everyone, at LM as in the Pentagon, say the operating costs will go lower and lower with time as more aircraft are inducted and the maintenance procedures get perfected. So why does the USAF and USN go on and say "actually, you know what? take the F-15 and F-18 and upgrades them with Rafale-like systems, this is what we actually need"?
Maybe it's related to the F-35's internal systems being already obsolete so that they're already scheduled for a midlife upgrade before they even reach FOC?
Blast from the past. F-35 EOTS already obsolete...
Israelis I agree.
But incase of Europeans they have been as shoddy as the Americans. Also Turkey's whole industrial base has been made on American weapons. Same for South Korea and Japan. South Korea recently has also readied it's radar too for its Kfx. We are still stuck with the uttam...
The Americans do not give up technology that's on their export control list.
The Europeans and Israelis are much more lax.
The Koreans, Japanese, Turks etc do not have any technology that's on the American export control list.
Problems found with negotiations for Seoul's F-35A purchase deal: auditor | Yonhap News Agency
By Oh Seok-min SEOUL, May 22 (Yonhap) -- The arms procurement agency said Wednesday it w...
But implementation of the deal did not go well as the U.S. government refused in 2015 to issue an export license for four combat jet technologies, including a key radar technology, to South Korea, though the U.S. firm agreed to provide 25 kinds of technologies under the offset deal.
South Korea Moves Forward With Plans to Buy 20 More F-35 Stealth Fighter Jets
South Korea’s DAPA has purportedly initiated the procurement process for 20 more F-35As.
thediplomat.com
So they are willing to transfer a lot of technology, stuff that we already have, but not the key ones, stuff that we do not have. Otoh, we have had multiple radars, IR sensors and EW suite deals with the Israelis, alongside other electronics, and a series of upcoming engine deals with the British, Russians and French.
Contrary to what you stated, the Koreans had to make their own radar, just like our Uttam. This is from day before.
South Korea unveils indigenous AESA radar prototype for KF-X fighter
South Korea has unveiled an indigenous active electronically scanned-array (AESA) radar prototype for use by the Republic of Korea Air Force’s (RoKAF’s) next-generation...
www.janes.com
The Japanese and Turks are also going for American-free jets. Both have developed their own indigenous technologies. The Japanese have gone one step further with their own engine tech as well.
& IAF will continue to cock a snook at American fighter jets.
F-15EX (legacy design, doesn't unique capablites, expensive), F-18SH (IAF hates this sloth, we can live without Growler-Prowler
, most unfit for high-altitude warfare, another legacy design) & F-21 (HA-HA-HA) are all not-starters here, never going to happen.What options do the Turks have: is building upon the Su-35 design one of the options they might explore ? Will Russia include in their PAKFA or S-60, S-70 programs - as it is already looking for partners/buyers ?
Or, replicating Chinese junk like J-20, J-16, J-10 copies which get no respect anywhere ?
Left to their own devices, how does their military aerospace capabilities compare with ours ?
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How are the Japanese faring ? Their current project & state ? Any scope for India getting something out of it ? Any collaboration at all possible on the engine side ?
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Finally, how would you the rank the indigenous defence industry in terms of current state, successes, capabilities & potential between these 4 countries: India, Japan, Korea, Turkey ?
Their plan was to operate the F-35 and develop an aircraft called the TF-X as a complement. The TF-X is an F-22 class aircraft. They are hoping it flies in 2025 with the F-15's engine.
So it was their F-22/F-35 combo.
The TF-X is their first attempt at developing a fighter jet, so they have to develop it from scratch. But they have a lot of technology developed in other areas, like electronics, and a rather developed remote-controlled UCAV capability. Dunno how they will fare with the airframe, while they will rely on the British for the engines.
They are not Europeans, and they have a mix of mature and non-existent tech. It can go either way.
The real question is whether they can actually afford it.
They are also developing an F-22 class aircraft. Our AMCA is much smaller, so the engine won't help us. But Vstol's aircraft has the Japanese engine as an engine option, let's see where that goes.
Japan > India - Korea > Turkey.
All four have rather well-developed electronics industries.
Japan has a lot of technical prowess. They have even succeeded in developing their own engine. They were the first country to develop and make operational an AESA radar, all the way in 1992. Their BVR AAM also have been using AESA seekers since over a decade. They developed a next gen TD and have been flying it since 2016, so they are way ahead in the development curve compared to the other three countries.
India has successfully developed a fighter jet indigenously. And have also attempted to make an indigenous engine with some mixed success. Foreign collaboration is also possible for engines, while multiple aircraft programs will help develop AMCA's electronics.
Korea is completely dependent on American technology in some crucial areas, like the FBW and engine. But they have actual aircraft development experience and their goal for KF-X (same class as Typhoon) is much lower than India's AMCA goals, but they plan to improve it to bring it to AMCA standards over a decade. They have a highly accelerated goal of developing a Typhoon-equivalent by 2026 using the F414. So it's an overall much better planned program than AMCA. Which is why it makes sense to put Korea and India on equal footing. Had India's engine program succeeded, then of course India would be on top.
F35 is their cream technology. They are not sharing most of their tech to the Brits. Even though they are tier 1 partner in the f35 JSF plan. So it's not surprising they will give their tech to small players like soko and turkey.The Americans do not give up technology that's on their export control list.
The Europeans and Israelis are much more lax.
The Koreans, Japanese, Turks etc do not have any technology that's on the American export control list.
The contract to buy 40 F-35 Lightning II fighters was concluded in an "offset" manner that called for the American defense giant to transfer dozens of key technologies to South Korea in exchange for purchasing the expensive fighter jets.Problems found with negotiations for Seoul's F-35A purchase deal: auditor | Yonhap News Agency
By Oh Seok-min SEOUL, May 22 (Yonhap) -- The arms procurement agency said Wednesday it w...en.yna.co.kr
But implementation of the deal did not go well as the U.S. government refused in 2015 to issue an export license for four combat jet technologies, including a key radar technology, to South Korea, though the U.S. firm agreed to provide 25 kinds of technologies under the offset deal.
However, the United States refused to share four (active electronically scanned radar, the infrared search-and-rescue systems, the electro-optical targeting pod and the radio frequency jammer) out of the 25 technologies.South Korea Moves Forward With Plans to Buy 20 More F-35 Stealth Fighter Jets
South Korea’s DAPA has purportedly initiated the procurement process for 20 more F-35As.thediplomat.com
So they are willing to transfer a lot of technology, stuff that we already have, but not the key ones, stuff that we do not have. Otoh, we have had multiple radars, IR sensors and EW suite deals with the Israelis, alongside other electronics, and a series of upcoming engine deals with the British, Russians and French.
Contrary to what you stated, the Koreans had to make their own radar, just like our Uttam. This is from day before.
South Korea unveils indigenous AESA radar prototype for KF-X fighter
South Korea has unveiled an indigenous active electronically scanned-array (AESA) radar prototype for use by the Republic of Korea Air Force’s (RoKAF’s) next-generation...
The Japanese and Turks are also going for American-free jets. Both have developed their own indigenous technologies. The Japanese have gone one step further with their own engine tech as well.
But the Turks have actually benefitted from the f35 program because they were making parts for the wings so they already have a know how to build stealth material which will make it superior in passive stealth to the amca and kfx. The Japanese are taking assistance of LMT and can make aircrafts on their own because of their tech expertise.
The Koreans making their own radar is because they were rejected U.S tech. But the tech base help was American. They came with a radar way too fast compared to us who have taken maybe 10 years and still not inducted...
Also the turks are basically using the f16 engine on their fifth gen because they have been license producing f16. True ToT I think. Something the Chinese with their al31...
I would partially agree with you here on the super hornet but f15ex is a unique aircraft. The speed,range and load capacity is not comparable to any plane of its class. The su34 might be one but its weapons variety is non existent compared to the a2g options the f15ex has. The radar is the most powerful in a non 5th gen plane no other radar comes near to its performance. Plus fastest mission computer and EPAWWS which I assume is comparable to spectra in performance. Also the engine if we buy it might help us in our amca or a tejas mk 3 if it ever happens. The aim 120d while not as good as the meteor is still the most formidable bvr missile and is comparitively cheaper . It would replace our entire fleet of jaguars,mig 27 and mig 23 even to an extent free our mirages for air defence and superiority roles. Plus it's airframe life is 20000 hours way more to any other aircraft of its class. The only problem being that its in the su 30 class and is more expensive than the rafale both for procuring and maintenance costs. The capability jump with the f15ex is good and will give us a massive bvr advantage over both our rival air forces. Plaaf does have aesa's for its j 16,j10 and j11 which will still pose less danger to us. The rafale's and f15 can be used similarly to how the Israelis use their f16I and f15I..
Anyone would agree to all that you mentioned. All that has been well advertised in recent days. It truly is a grand old, undefeated warhorse that USAF & IsAF continues to rely on. It's one of a kind.
However, try pondering over this: What is that 1 capability that F-15EX brings to the table that the cheaper Rafale doesn't already provides us ?
Don't mention the Hypersonic missile, neither is ready, nor will be offered to India anytime soon
More the cost factor, or redundancy due to preexistence & preponderance of MKI's in IAF, the two limitations due to which F-15EX doesn't catches my fancy are:
- AMRAAM including AIM-120D being inferior to Meteor, just being on par with Astra-NG (should be deployed within 4-5 years if its dual-pulse rocket motor, not SFDR).
- Second factor is: how far it can detected from...its radar cross-section is just gross.
Rafale is first & only of its class - designed to be omnirole (unlike F-22 or F-35) + VLO + unmatched ECCM capabilities in Spectra.
IAF has been hellbent on Rafale for a reason. They definitely know better than all of us combined.
Anyway, GoI wouldn't let an American Fighter jet in the mix. Rafale was the last 4.5 Gen we brought.
It's all about 5th Gen & 6th gen now on. There is none of offer now, until PAKFA is perfected (our fallback option), which isn't even ready yet. So we will develop it.
All 4th Gen procurement would be indigenous.
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F 15EX radar & EW along with subsystem is probably superior to Rafale. Let's take radar & EW system for e.g...it is derived from F 35 so probably it is superior to RBE 2 AESA
How ?
• it is bigger in size & more power is available to it. Both factor give it superior performance compared to rafale radar.
• both use tapered slot array .
• Vivaldi TSA RBE 2 AESA.
•high density Quad packed stepped notch TSA in case of F 35 radar....for higher power loads. F 15ex use something similar.
if level of technology remain same on radar being used & operating frequency ( wavelength ) remain same than the one with bigger transmitting aperture will result in narrower beamwidth...which will increase both range and accuracy of the radar system.
Only thing going good in favour of rafale is it's low frontal RCS. Since detection range is proportional to 4th root of RCS. F 15EX bigger RCS will probably negate it's radar advantage.
there is no missile Better than AIM-120D in Asia other than meteor. Buying 120D close all door to Pakistan other than Chinese who are nowhere close....but also open door for us to get AIM-260 in future
Nope... rafale is neither VLO nor it's ECCM is unmatched. F 35, F 22 are true VLO aircraft.
EPAWWS on F 15EX is probably superior to spectra and we would probably see something similar only in F4R standard.
The US T/R module technology is not extraordinary: the prototype of the RBE2 AESA used US modules which gave a 40% performance improvement over the PESA antenna, whereas when switching to European T/R modules the performance improvement went from 40% to 100%.
I'd like to know what makes you think EPAWSS is superior to SPECTRA.
Apart from the common prejudice "it's American so it has to be better" I can't see any argument that would support that opinion.
The difference in RCS between the Rafale and the F-15 is enormous, and it is disinformation to say that this negates the advantage the F-15 radar gives it. Thanks to SPECTRA the RCS of the Rafale was already 0.06 m^2 before the DEDIRA PEA was applied, and since F3R this RCS has been further reduced. The F-15 has a RCS of more than 10 m^2 which means that the range of the F-15 radar would have to be 700% better than that of the Rafale for the two characteristics to compensate for each other (not counting DEDIRA!!!).
And what would be the advantage of having this AIM-260 missile instead of the METEOR?
AIM-260 missile | The US Air Force and beyond-visual-range lethality | Free analysis
The US Air Force’s AIM-260 missile now in development offers marked improvements over the AIM-120, but, as Douglas Barrie explores, questions remain as to its end-game performance at extended ranges.
www.iiss.org
Tejas is the smallest working fighter in world now & it has its own.limitations due to its size, I think we are repeating the same mistake on AMCA. The stealtg aircraft needs to out all.its weaponary on its internal bays, small aircraft gives less room for internal bays, also less fuel too. Heard that astra missile needs to be trimmed.its length to put inside amca internal weapon storage ( dont know how true it is)
If we choose f15EX, we will get aim120D & c fir sure, wil not have any problems in integrating Derby ER. And even we may get meteor on f15EX too, after all meteor is a nato product. But tge main nich weapon we going to get is AIM260 missiles & AGM 158c, arguably the best anti ship.missile in the world. Imagine few f15EX armed with AGM can sink chinese surface flotilla way before reaching indian.ocean. I hope, our military will show some maturity while choosing mmrca2 winner.
Asper Harshvardhan, in modern warfare any aircraft with RCS greater than 1.5 m2 is useless in terms of stealth or low observable, it will be detected & tracked.much earlier. Rafale may have 1 m2 rcs, but with weapons hangin.on.its pylons it wil be higher than 1.5. This
Some light reading on operational costs
www.russiadefence.net
Operational costs of modern fighters - CPFH
This is a preliminary attempt to establish some facts regarding the actual costs (CPFH -Cost Per Flight Hour) of operating modern fighter jets. I have to say in
Probably because US supplied old notch radiator. even if we believe that European tech is equal or even superior, doesn't change the fact that radar PAP for F 15EX would be higher.
Higher power + Superior computational power available to F 15EX...Will help in better, faster and accurate detection of threat's + increase response time + faster countermeasure response + better offensive EW capability etc.
Yes you are right this give advantage to rafale but problem with rafale like all non stealth fighter jet is that none of them are true stealth aircraft like F 22 ,F 35 etc. EW is not a true substitute for stealth...it never will be.
Pakistan won't be getting anything high tech from west which will force her to rely on Chinese. Which are not even close to russians forget west.