Yes...future , even present is stealth if you can afford it though...no doubt about that.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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Regarding spectra, i dont understand how an amplitude cancellation method using interference method works against an AESA radar. With my knowledge in physics for interference you need to generate a counter signal with same frequency amplitude with in phase, how effective is spectra against a rapidly frequency changing aesa is beyond my comprehensive ability of my brain. @Picdelamirand-oil once tried to explained me how spectra works against aesa, but still not convinced 100%. If some one can tell me how spectra attaining stealth against an aesa, pls tell the techniques in a simple language.
Exactly, its one potential advantage, due to its massive size is also negated due to the same reason - massive RCS.
That's why Rafale is the perfect trade-off. Not too size-constrained like Tejas, not too hulking-big like F-15EX.
Btw, have you ever heard/read about any aircraft carrying more than 6 AAM's in a warfare ?
22 Hardpoints is good for advertisements, doesn't carries much worth in real-world.[/QUOTE]
We have Meteor. When you can be Mr.Olympia, why settle for being Mr. Also Ran.
That tech. itself is getting old. SFDR would be the baseline within 10 years.
Probably not, there is no evidence in opensource to assume so. By all accounts, SPECTRA alone is the gold-standard that is admired & respected universally.
Too many probably. F4R raises the game to the extent that nothing the PLAAF can bring to the contest will stand for next 5-10 years.
From a stealth perspective alone, there's no contest.
But we are not fighting against USAF.
Neither does IAF have any plans to become subject to whims & fancies of US Human Rights NGO's & lobbyists & get crippled or hamstrung.
Then F-35 is barely IOC. Has major performance limitations, is irredeemably under-powered & is perhaps the most hated AC in USAF history.
F-22: Well, no one is getting near it. After 20 years, we will have to make do with AMCA.
If AMCA is seen failing, then PAKFA to the rescue within a decade.
Now what we can get, - F-15EX is a fast, powerful, reliable bomb truck. But we already have that capability & role in SU30MKI's which would be upgraded within 3-5 years to leverage its true potential as a platform.
When compared to Rafale F4R (our order for next 54), there's no contest anymore.
The US has used the F 14 to fire the Pheonix about twice or thrice in real combat without hitting the target aircraft . Iran has claimed that it was able to shoot Iraqi aircraft using the F 14 phoenix combination .If you are interested, you can go through the below article. It gives the comparison between not only different aircraft but also the strengths(weakness of every jet can be observed by looking on those strengths which are not listed jet wise.)
TOPGUN instructor (and former F-14/F/A-18 crew) assesses Tomcat versus Meteor-armed Typhoon fight & list top 5 BVR fighters 2020
Imagine a beyond visual range duel between the F-14 Tomcat and Typhoon. Both would be armed with phenomenally long ranged weapons, and both would be piloted by well trained aircrew with powerful sensors. So who would win?
Hypothetical BVR duel between a F-14D with Phoenix Missiles and Typhoon with Meteor: For any comparison in a BVR duel, you have to first look at the platform (ability to detect or be detected based upon RCS) and its sensors (radar or other sensors). There are multiple spectra to consider these days, like RF, IR, and visual, that when combined with ECM, ECCM, and the all-important launch altitude and airspeed of your aircraft and the enemy aircraft, that can make the duel very interesting. Think Stealth, Speed, Altitude and Sensors.
And then you need to look at the aircrew. Their training, their propensity to commit to a deadly head-to-head BVR missile dual. Do I want to risk my life today for the dictator/autocrat/party official who told me to go launch against NATO/Coalition forces? So, you look at the people, and the aircraft first even before looking at the missile. Manfred von Richthofen said, “The quality of the box matters little. Success depends on the man who sits in it.” However, at TOPGUN, we also said, “But the box does matter!”
And then the missile. When can the seeker go active? Do I even need a radar track? Can I just shoot and leave immediately? How fast is the enemy’s missile? Can I launch undetected? Can I detect incoming
fire? Will I get the first shot off? If I don’t get the first shot off, can I run away before shooting my missiles, defeat his first volley, then turn around and run him down with my excessive speed and gas and kill him when he is trying to get back to base? Remember, Chuck Yeager shot down an Me 262 that was in the landing pattern.
Now, putting all of that together. Meteor is a very long-range missile with an active seeker and an impressive throttleable ducted ramjet. The missile gets high and fast, just not incredibly high or incredibly fast since it is breathing air and zipping along in the thin air, just not the really thin air. But very formidable when you look at its estimated no escape zones in all quarters. Typhoon, as your readers know, is an extremely impressive fighter with great sensors and can get high and fast to launch. It only has a fraction of the gas of the TOMCAT and is feeding two engines as well.
So to the comparison, the Typhoon, with its AESA (editor note: AESA should be operational on the Typhoon later this year) and IRST would see the big (huge RCS) Tomcat at long range coming at it at just under Mach 2, and track the Tomcat to achieve launch parameters with the METEOR at range.
The F-14D with all of its sensors, high power out, IRST, Data Links and SA, and trained two-person aircrew with ability to artfully manage launch acceptability regions, would be formidable. The F-14D with its massive GE motors and 20,000 lbs. of gas at takeoff, and its swing wings allowing very high speeds, and would be up in the thinnest air possible to try to out-stick the METEOR with its AIM-54C+ missiles. It could get a firing solution at an extremely long range. The TOMCAT would likely be able to see the Typhoon at Phoenix launch range. -The METEOR can go farther than the Phoenix downrange, but speed in this case is extremely important and the quality of the seeker is paramount. The AIM-54C+ had a phenomenal seeker with digital processing tricks that would blow your mind, and with a large active radar in its nose and high power out, could go active way out at range, and allow the TOMCAT to turn (at Mach 2 it’s a big turn!) and run away…possibly before the METEOR could run it down.
So, what is the bottom line? Somebody with a high-speed supercomputer and hundreds of hours of computer time and experience could figure it out for you, but my gut says, since the METEOR can just go forever – I think the advantage here could go to the METEOR (launched from a Typhoon) in a 1V1 head-on BVR matchup with the Phoenix (launched from the F-14D). But it would be really close. Great question.
Today with the PL-15, R-33 and Meteor other aircraft have very long range AAMs- has the US temporarily lost the advantage in long range AAMs or are they an unlikely weapon for the real world?
This one is easy to answer. The US has unparalleled stealth aircraft and that counters the threat missiles and aircraft mentioned. But the US is never interested in parity or just countering a threat. It has and will continue to invest heavily in missile technology, and is really good at keeping secret what it actually has and will pull out on day one of the war. The threat from China and Russia is real, and the US takes their actions very seriously. The US industry supplies the best ‘kit’ in the world and that remains a deterrent to potential adversaries.
What would you consider the top 5 BVR platforms in service today and why?
Remember what I told you in question 1, for the platform it is stealth, sensors, speed and altitude. For BVR, in order:
- F-22 – stealth, sensors, speed and altitude,
- F-35 – stealth, sensors, altitude
3. Su-35 – speed, altitude, weapon loadout; a very formidable threat in many categories
4. F-15 – sensors, speed, altitude, partial stealth*, endurance, AAM loadout (qty)
(*Editor notes: I think this ‘partial stealth’ assessment refers to future F-15s but I’m checking this with the author)
5. F/A-18E/F Block II/III – sensors, altitude, endurance, partial stealth, AAM loadout (qty). In a tie with: Typhoon – sensors, altitude, speed, limited stealth, METEOR
TOPGUN instructor (and former F-14/F/A-18 crew) assesses Tomcat versus Meteor-armed Typhoon fight & list top 5 BVR fighters 2020
Doug ‘Boog’ Denneny is a former TOPGUN Instructor and F-14 RIO/Super Hornet WSO. He commanded VF-2 and VFA-2 and has over 3500 hours in Navy fighters. After retirement from th…hushkit.net
Low rcs is of no use in modern airwarfare, the new gen aircraft radars are ver much capable tondetect 1.5 m2 rcs objects in 120-150 km range. This was stated by Harshvardhan Thakur in ome of the tweets.
Rafale will have 1.5+ m2 rcs
The ToT Turkey received for the F-35 is of no help to their own program.
The Koreans do take a lot of outside help, but don't forget that they are an advanced economy. Stuff like this is not difficult for them. They have a pretty well-established aerospace industry, no different from Sweden.
Production ToT doesn't help in R&D.
Smart Jamming like active cancellation doesn't need high power.
What makes you think that the computing power of the F-15 is greater than that of the Rafale? The Rafale's computer architecture, which virtualizes the central computer, allows its computer to be updated at least every standard and even more often if necessary. There is absolutely no possible computer power problem on the Rafale. All the qualities that you attribute to the F-15, I would rather attribute them to the Rafale which has demonstrated these qualities in combat for a long time, unlike the F-15.
Passive stealth as used by the F-22 and F-35 is a stealth of the past, unlike the active stealth of the Rafale. For a very simple reason, electronics is evolving much faster than the progress on airframe shapes.
For example, the F-22 will not be able to do anything against multistatic radar while the Rafale will be able to do active cancellation towards all enemies in its tactical situation which will include transmitters as well as receivers, even passive ones. And finally the comparison is not with the F-22 but with the F-15.
France was and remains a strong partner of India.
For years.
What a F15EX will do, a Rafale do it now.
Nothing new under the sun from a US pilot point of view ....If you are interested, you can go through the below article. It gives the comparison between not only different aircraft but also the strengths(weakness of every jet can be observed by looking on those strengths which are not listed jet wise.)
TOPGUN instructor (and former F-14/F/A-18 crew) assesses Tomcat versus Meteor-armed Typhoon fight & list top 5 BVR fighters 2020
Imagine a beyond visual range duel between the F-14 Tomcat and Typhoon. Both would be armed with phenomenally long ranged weapons, and both would be piloted by well trained aircrew with powerful sensors. So who would win?
Hypothetical BVR duel between a F-14D with Phoenix Missiles and Typhoon with Meteor: For any comparison in a BVR duel, you have to first look at the platform (ability to detect or be detected based upon RCS) and its sensors (radar or other sensors). There are multiple spectra to consider these days, like RF, IR, and visual, that when combined with ECM, ECCM, and the all-important launch altitude and airspeed of your aircraft and the enemy aircraft, that can make the duel very interesting. Think Stealth, Speed, Altitude and Sensors.
And then you need to look at the aircrew. Their training, their propensity to commit to a deadly head-to-head BVR missile dual. Do I want to risk my life today for the dictator/autocrat/party official who told me to go launch against NATO/Coalition forces? So, you look at the people, and the aircraft first even before looking at the missile. Manfred von Richthofen said, “The quality of the box matters little. Success depends on the man who sits in it.” However, at TOPGUN, we also said, “But the box does matter!”
And then the missile. When can the seeker go active? Do I even need a radar track? Can I just shoot and leave immediately? How fast is the enemy’s missile? Can I launch undetected? Can I detect incoming
fire? Will I get the first shot off? If I don’t get the first shot off, can I run away before shooting my missiles, defeat his first volley, then turn around and run him down with my excessive speed and gas and kill him when he is trying to get back to base? Remember, Chuck Yeager shot down an Me 262 that was in the landing pattern.
Now, putting all of that together. Meteor is a very long-range missile with an active seeker and an impressive throttleable ducted ramjet. The missile gets high and fast, just not incredibly high or incredibly fast since it is breathing air and zipping along in the thin air, just not the really thin air. But very formidable when you look at its estimated no escape zones in all quarters. Typhoon, as your readers know, is an extremely impressive fighter with great sensors and can get high and fast to launch. It only has a fraction of the gas of the TOMCAT and is feeding two engines as well.
So to the comparison, the Typhoon, with its AESA (editor note: AESA should be operational on the Typhoon later this year) and IRST would see the big (huge RCS) Tomcat at long range coming at it at just under Mach 2, and track the Tomcat to achieve launch parameters with the METEOR at range.
The F-14D with all of its sensors, high power out, IRST, Data Links and SA, and trained two-person aircrew with ability to artfully manage launch acceptability regions, would be formidable. The F-14D with its massive GE motors and 20,000 lbs. of gas at takeoff, and its swing wings allowing very high speeds, and would be up in the thinnest air possible to try to out-stick the METEOR with its AIM-54C+ missiles. It could get a firing solution at an extremely long range. The TOMCAT would likely be able to see the Typhoon at Phoenix launch range. -The METEOR can go farther than the Phoenix downrange, but speed in this case is extremely important and the quality of the seeker is paramount. The AIM-54C+ had a phenomenal seeker with digital processing tricks that would blow your mind, and with a large active radar in its nose and high power out, could go active way out at range, and allow the TOMCAT to turn (at Mach 2 it’s a big turn!) and run away…possibly before the METEOR could run it down.
So, what is the bottom line? Somebody with a high-speed supercomputer and hundreds of hours of computer time and experience could figure it out for you, but my gut says, since the METEOR can just go forever – I think the advantage here could go to the METEOR (launched from a Typhoon) in a 1V1 head-on BVR matchup with the Phoenix (launched from the F-14D). But it would be really close. Great question.
Today with the PL-15, R-33 and Meteor other aircraft have very long range AAMs- has the US temporarily lost the advantage in long range AAMs or are they an unlikely weapon for the real world?
This one is easy to answer. The US has unparalleled stealth aircraft and that counters the threat missiles and aircraft mentioned. But the US is never interested in parity or just countering a threat. It has and will continue to invest heavily in missile technology, and is really good at keeping secret what it actually has and will pull out on day one of the war. The threat from China and Russia is real, and the US takes their actions very seriously. The US industry supplies the best ‘kit’ in the world and that remains a deterrent to potential adversaries.
What would you consider the top 5 BVR platforms in service today and why?
Remember what I told you in question 1, for the platform it is stealth, sensors, speed and altitude. For BVR, in order:
- F-22 – stealth, sensors, speed and altitude,
- F-35 – stealth, sensors, altitude
3. Su-35 – speed, altitude, weapon loadout; a very formidable threat in many categories
4. F-15 – sensors, speed, altitude, partial stealth*, endurance, AAM loadout (qty)
(*Editor notes: I think this ‘partial stealth’ assessment refers to future F-15s but I’m checking this with the author)
5. F/A-18E/F Block II/III – sensors, altitude, endurance, partial stealth, AAM loadout (qty). In a tie with: Typhoon – sensors, altitude, speed, limited stealth, METEOR
TOPGUN instructor (and former F-14/F/A-18 crew) assesses Tomcat versus Meteor-armed Typhoon fight & list top 5 BVR fighters 2020
Doug ‘Boog’ Denneny is a former TOPGUN Instructor and F-14 RIO/Super Hornet WSO. He commanded VF-2 and VFA-2 and has over 3500 hours in Navy fighters. After retirement from th…
Maybe when it will be FOC. A date always postoned. 2026 now? Maybe 2027 next year, as always.
In your dream. US flexibility is not european one.
The computing power of F35 is so high...
So high that they don't master it ! 14 years after pre serial flight it is only IOC. The targeting pod can't follow a moving target, the gun don't fire straight, the ALIS is to be rewritten ! ... whaouh Astonishing !
The size of AMCA is fine. I hope it comes with side bays, but even if it doesn't, it's fine. And no, the AMCA's IWB is more than large enough to carry Astra. It doesn't need larger weapons bays because the core strike capability will be carried on the IUSAV.
AMCA has plenty of fuel. It's in the same class as the Typhoon, but has 1.5T more fuel.
Even if EPAWSS is as good as SPECTRA, it's not even begun the process of flight testing on the F-15EX, whereas the SPECTRA is already combat proven since 2011.
The problem is the su30 is a air superiority platform first and a ground striker later. That's why it hasn't been used for any airstrikes and also in balakot too it was used as a distraction. The f15ex can carry more than the su30 and has an enormous variety of a2g munitions. Examples being jassm er, nsm, kepd 350 , spice , jdam, cbu 97/105 . The list is endless. The su 30 only has brahmos ng and spice as comparable bombs the kh series of munitions come nowhere close the accuracy and capabilities of American munitions. A single f 15 can do the same job for which we ended up using five mirages. The Israelis use their f 15e's as deep strike bomber something which was given to our jaguars and everybody knows very well how they have been used by the IAF. Plus the mki doesn't have a dual pylons of the f15 atleast I have never seen on one of them and super Sukhoi upgrade won't make it a better ground striker. The f15 is not for replacing the mki's it's for complementing the mki and rafale's and replacing the jaguars,mig23,mig27,mig 29. The mki's are amazing planes. The recent 27th Feb drama has been deliberately used to badmouth it. The likes of abhijit mitra ( who makes great points most of the time) are basically peddling Lockheed Martin sales pitches to the point that he thinks the tejas is a failure of a plane and considers it to be inferior to the jf 17. The mki's can be used as are workhorse for aerial combat. While the rafale can be our silver bullet and the f15ex are ground strikers. The Tejas/MWF should replace the rest of our fleet of mig 21,mirage and mig 29. The su 30 and tejas can work in conjunction for our defensive posture and rafale's and f15 can be used for offensive strikes...
There are no doubts that spectra is a mature and superior system to epawws. It's better to have staggered acquisitions and preferably a g2g deal with the French on producing the rafale's in a way which is conducive for both the French and us.
In case of mmrca the reason I want the f15ex to win is because of the engine and radar simple as that. Epawws is a side show which makes the deal sweeter and also makes f15ex viable. As much people here and other forums want to replay the non-alignment game again. I personally prefer getting onboard with the Americans and entering their global supply chain atleast a foreign player can force our MIC to actually develop since our own bureaucracy and leadership doesn't have the wherewithal or vision to do it. This should only happen on the condition if Trump wins the next election otherwise its better to be non-aligned then because a lot of variables might change. Then it's better to buy the rafale's and stay away from Americans for the foreseeable future.
The existing engine and radar on Rafale are superior to the F-15EX. And our actual requirements for both engine and radar are even higher than that, so it's not like any of this stuff is actually useful to us.
For example, while the Rafale's existing engine is superior to the F-15EX's engine, France is already willing to give us 100% ToT on an even more advanced engine for the K10, while we are negotiating for a true next gen engine with the British. So what use is the F-15's engine to us?
We are set on radar. The F-15's radar will actually be a downgrade over the LCA Mk1A's radar, think about that. And the Rafale F4.2's radar will simply be incomparable. The Israelis are already a better source of radar tech than the US, and then we now have our own radar tech. Uttam is our future.
There is no entering the American supply chain unless it's for outdated or obsolete stuff. Even if you did, you either do what you're told or they will take it away, just like they did to Turkey for the F-35.
I think all your expectations from the Americans are very different from reality.
The only true cooperation will be possible on next gen technologies, not current gen or previous gen tech when it comes to the Americans.
Combat range,F15 have edge over Rafale when comes to range. We need a f15 type aircraft to do offensive action deep inside Tibet.
Our relationship with USA should not pivot around a single person,what will happen after Trump then? We need f15 i beleive,and we have to purchase it all too. Once agreement has made with sufficient claws on weapons and usage no American President can pull out unilaterally.
And Trump is also a highly unpredictable,if he strike a good deal with Chinese he will start honeymoon with Xi.
Lastly, Democrats may choose Kamala Haris,the she is a known for her anti Indian sentiment.
The F-15's not survivable enough to do that. It's also not what the Americans are buying more F-15s for.
Against Chinese fighters,yeas it is survivable and even destroy most of the Chinese platforms like su35.only grey area is j20 vs f15. Even Rafale vs J20 scenario too a grey area.
Against s400 both Rafale & F15 will have tough time, but the advantages of f15 is the option of advanced & upcoming s400 neutralizing weapons from USA.