It's the same program, different name. When the program officially starts, we will need a new thread.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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It's the same program, different name. When the program officially starts, we will need a new thread.
Boeing Confident Of Beating Rafales; Selling Its ‘Most Advanced Fighter Jets’ To India, Israel & The US
Published
5 hours ago
on
October 10, 2020
By
EurAsian Times Desk
After the procurement of the French-origin Dassault Rafale fighter jets, India is now looking to further bolster its Air Force under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) 2.0 contract.
Boeing is aggressively pitching key allies Israel and India and even the United States the most advanced variants of F-15s. Prat Kumar, Boeing’s Vice President had recently stated that the company was in the process of responding to a request for information from Israel for up to 25 new Advanced F-15s, plus upgrades for 25 existing F-15I aircraft.
Earlier, the US Air Force had placed an order for its first batch of F-15EXs, awarding Boeing a contract that puts a ceiling value for the entire program close to $23 billion.
The first delivery order, which has a not-to-exceed value of about $1.2 billion, covers the first lot of eight F-15EX fighter jets, as well as support and one-time, upfront engineering costs.
With the Indian armed forces facing Chinese aggression on the northern border, the stakes are now raised as the next fighter could decide India’s fate if a war breaks out.
One of the options under the MMRCA 2.0 is the American F-15EX. The fighter can perform in all weathers and offers immense stealth in comparison to the Dassault Rafale fighters that offer moderate stealth capabilities.
File Image: F-15
The twin-engine F-15EX uses the frame of the classic F-15 and has a combat range of 1,100 miles. Due to its size, the F-15EX fulfils a variety of roles like air superiority, interceptor, deep penetration strikes against enemy infrastructure, strategic bombing, and ground attack.
With Pakistan and China threatening the border, a fighter that offers heavy weapon systems that will be suitable and F-15EX can carry twenty-two air-to-air missiles and other heavy weapons, including ASAT, JASSM-ER, GBU-28 Bunker Buster laser-guided bomb, hypersonic cruise missiles, and AGM-84H SLAM ER, which are far more than an F-35’s payload capacity.
Boeing is also expecting the F-15EX to carry the new Lockheed Martin infrared search and track sensor (IRST) system. “It offers the pilot an important additional way to detect and track other aircraft at significant ranges,” explained The Drive.
Citing Prat Kumar, Boeing’s Vice President and Program Manager for the F-15, the report also stated that the F-15EX could also be fitted with the LANTIRN navigation pod, Tiger Eyes IRST, and Sniper targeting pod under the intakes. This combination is already adopted by Saudi Arabia, Korea, and Qatar for its advanced F-15s, it further noted.
However, it is important to note that Rafale fighters had already once beaten the Typhoon, Super Hornet and F-16 in 2012 during the MMRC. Reportedly the American jets were rejected because the IAF evaluation criteria emphasized hot-rod flight performance characteristics over avionics.
The Dassault Rafale is a French twin-engine, canard-delta wing, multirole fighter aircraft equipped with a wide range of weapons, the Rafale is intended to perform air supremacy, interdiction, aerial reconnaissance, ground support, in-depth strike, anti-ship strike and nuclear deterrence missions.
The Retired Indian Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa has dubbed the Rafale fighter jets as the “game-changer” for the IAF and said that the Indian Rafale deal was a “good package”.
Sebastien Roblin of Forbes also pointed out that the IAF has never operated American jet fighters before. “Currently the Indian Air Force flies Russian Su-30s, MiG-21s and MiG-29s and French Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and Rafales, in addition to its growing fleet of domestic Tejas jet fighters.”
“The Indian Navy also operates MiG-29K carrier-based fighters and the IAF recently purchased 12 more Su-30s and 21 MiG-29s to shore up its flagging numbers,” he added.
While the Indian Security Forces are heavily dependent upon Russian armaments, the increasing support from Washington against Chinese intrusions could skew towards the American fighters in the future.
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Boeing Confident Of Beating Rafales; Selling Its ‘Most Advanced Fighter Jets’ To India, Israel & The US
After the procurement of the French-origin Dassault Rafale fighter jets, India is now looking to further bolster its Air Force under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) 2.0 contract. Why T-90 Tanks Are The ‘Most Feared’ Weapon In The Indian Armoury Against China: US Military Analyst...
eurasiantimes.com
Boeing Confident Of Beating Rafales; Selling Its ‘Most Advanced Fighter Jets’ To India, Israel & The US
After the procurement of the French-origin Dassault Rafale fighter jets, India is now looking to further bolster its Air Force under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) 2.0 contract. Why T-90 Tanks Are The ‘Most Feared’ Weapon In The Indian Armoury Against China: US Military Analyst...
eurasiantimes.com
In fact they have not even responded to the IAF RFI for the F-15 EX and therefore the IAF will not even send them the RFP.
Indian presstitute media... F15EX is a heavy class aircraft, like the Su 30 MKI. IAF won't even clear it..In fact they have not even responded to the IAF RFI for the F-15 EX and therefore the IAF will not even send them the RFP.
Really? This is supposed to be an F-15?
Going to the site, it does show an actual image of an F-15:
Maybe they've fixed that between the time the article was copy-pasted and now.
I too noticed it. But again, we indians have seen much worse in our media when comes to defense reporting.Really? This is supposed to be an F-15?
Going to the site, it does show an actual image of an F-15:
Maybe they've fixed that between the time the article was copy-pasted and now.
The MRFA or MMRCA 2.0 is just another eyewash. With the inherent delay of our process, the end result will be too late for any practical impact. The only way is to keep ordering Rafale in tranches. It may be slightly expensive, but at least IAF will have some planes to fly rather than having some proposal on paper which failed to materialize over last 15+ years.
Its 21 years , IAF asked for new fighter soon after the kargil war. I have read this news in our local language news paper in 2001. Requirement were raised in 99,but first glimpse on this requirement has pop up in public domain in 2000 or 2001.
Everybody agrees with that. But the IAF is keen on a competition because all the contenders will then bring their best available technologies to the compeititon along with a 20-year roadmap.
To the IAF, the MRFA is not just a numbers infusion, but also technology. Basically if MRFA jets fail in war, then the entire air force also fails. MRFA will define our air superiority needs for the next 10-15 years, until AMCA Mk2 becomes available in numbers. They can be a bit more lax elsewhere, but not with MRFA.
In the meantime, a second order of Rafales will make up for all the delays between now and MRFA deliveries.
Anyway, absorbing Rafale in tranches is cheaper than the MRFA tender. Which is among the reasons why CDS Rawat supported the tranche-wise imports. But the IAF wants a competitive tender due to the "competition" aspect of it.
Yeah.. They called a jaguar M2k Su30 and pretty much all indian aircraft rafales when it arrived in india. Atleast F15 and FA18 are from the same country..
I have no freaking idea what IAF wants. But at least so far they have not displayed any strategic thought process expected from world’s 4th largest Air Force. If they are indeed looking for a competition to get the best available in the market while flying MiG 21s, then they are bunch of Idiots!!
Let me predict how future acquisitions of IAF will happen.
2+3 squadrons of Rafale and 83 LCA MK1 till 2027-28.
After that few squadrons of Su -57 till 2035.
LCA MK2 around 2032 and AMCA MK-1 after 2035.
All those fancy milestones being posted in different threads are just wishful thinking.
Then what you said is the exact opposite of what the IAF should do. A competitive tender will give them the information they need to go to the next level. In advanced air forces, the air forces have requirements and they ask the scientific community on how best to fulfill the requirements. The scientific community then tell the air forces what can be done and cannot be done. But in India, the scientific community is still too young, so the IAF has to rely on foreign scientific communities for the same. But foreign scientific communities will obviously not tell you everything on their own, they need to be coerced or provoked into telling it, hence the need to put them through a competition with a large prize. The bigger the prize, the better the technologies they bring to it.
The IAF doesn't merely want a jet now but also the roadmap for the next 20 years. This way, the IAF stays on par with global air forces for the next 30-40 years. Getting the jet is easy, getting the roadmap is not.
Your numbers barely scratch the surface. The IAF needs 12 squadrons of SE MRFA and 12 squadrons of TE MRFA, apart from the 6 squadrons of LCA Mk1 and 7 squadrons of AMCA.
The competitors are LCA Mk2, Gripen E and F-16 for SE MRFA, but the IAF have settled on LCA Mk2. And Mig-35, Rafale, Typhoon, SH, F-15 and Su-35 for TE MRFA. The IAF plans to award two contracts simultaneously for 6 squadrons each at the same time. With the remaining 6 squadrons each coming in as options of 50%. Which means the IAF will be locking in on 12 of the 24 squadrons required within the next few years, and creating a sort of soft lock on the other 6 squadrons remaining as options. Depending on the operational environment, the IAF can take up the options or abandon them as they see fit. This mainly affects LCA Mk2 since the TE MRFA is already sitting on 2 squadrons contracted out of the 12 required, with a possibility of 2 more being exercised before MRFA is locked in for 6 new squadrons.
The remaining 3-6 squadorns can be used as a buffer to bring in new capability, like an emergency procurement of Su-57 or something equally good or better at a later date, or even use it for a whole new competition or simply order more SE MRFA or TE MRFA.
The IAF need 24 new squadrons, not merely 3 more Rafale squadrons as you have noted. And 12-15 of those need to be contracted before 2027, apart from the 6 squadrons of LCA Mk1/A.
As for LCA Mk2, I don't agree with the deadline you've posted since the work required for the program is quite less. The changes required are not radical enough to need more than 3 years of flight testing. And HAL plans to bring in concurrent production in order to not waste time between flight testing and delivery to the IAF. Since the Mk2 is based on an existing design, and the electronics will also be operational before its first flight, the IAF also agrees with the assessment, which is why they abandoned the plans for a second competitive tender between Gripen E and F-16 in favour of the LCA. I don't think there will be any significant delays here.
As for AMCA, I agree, it's a radical new design meant to meet totally new requirements and the IAF need to make contingency plans to makeup for any potential delays, which are practically guaranteed to happen. So the buffer of 3-6 squadrons can be fulfilled by bringing in next gen capability to make up for any new delays here. This could either be the Su-57 Mk2 or even an F-35 Mk2, both with new engines, or something else entirely.
I have heard by someone working in the MoD that the guys in the ministry consider armed forces guy as idiots and treat them as second class people.
Decision to buy more Rafale aircraft or new fighter jets under consideration, IAF chief says
During his annual press conference, Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria also announced that the 36 Rafale fighter jets will be operationalised completely by 2023.theprint.in
Decision to buy more Rafale aircraft or new fighter jets under consideration, IAF chief says
During his annual press conference, Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria also announced that the 36 Rafale fighter jets will be operationalised completely by 2023.
New Delhi: Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria Monday for the first time officially indicated that the decision to buy two more squadrons of Rafale fighter jets is under consideration.
He, however, made it clear that the IAF was currently focusing on the order to be issued soon for 83 Light Combat Tejas Mark 1A.
“At the moment, we are concentrating on 83 LCA Mk 1A. After that, the follow-up planned is MRFA (multi-role fighter aircraft), which is ‘Make in India’ and the other line is on LCA versions, and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA),” said the IAF chief while addressing the media during his annual press conference.
“In terms of whether we go in for more Rafale or MRFA, it will be an open competition as it is currently planned. We have received the RFI (Request for Information) responses. So this entire subject is under discussion and debate. As and when this situation and the picture becomes clear and we finalise the way forward, we will share with you,” he added.
Asked by ThePrint on what the IAF favours as the next lot of Rafale aircraft will be cheaper than the 36 jets bought in 2016 and that logistics are already in place to cater to two more squadrons, the IAF chief said the issue is “on the table in terms of taking a final call”.
“I can’t discuss that question and answer before we take a final decision. This is a subject, which is under discussion. The current status is that we have received all of the RFI (Request for Information sent out for 114 MFRA) responses. All these issues are on the table in terms of taking a final call. As and when we decide, we will then tell you,” he said.
“There is no point in saying because of this (next lot will be cheaper and logistics in place) let us do this. There are various issues to be considered. All these facts are there. As soon as we take it, we will tell you”.
Rafale procurement
Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Bipin Rawat had in February said the government will go in for staggered purchase of fighter jets, which was seen as an advantage to Rafale.
As reported by ThePrint, there is a thinking within the government that India should go in for two additional squadrons of the Rafale fighter jets besides better versions of the indigenous LCA Tejas and AMCA.
This was because a large component of the €1,700 million paid for India Specific Enhancements in Rafale will come down as the majority of the cost was for Research and Development, modification and certification.
The cost of setting up the base and training will also come down since India had paid for setting up two bases for just 36 aircraft. These bases can easily accommodate more squadrons of the aircraft without additional cost.
Also, future Rafale fighter jets will come with no offsets under the new policy of the government, thereby bringing down the cost further.
36 Rafale jets to be operationalised by 2023
Meanwhile, the IAF chief said that the 36 Rafale fighter jets will be operationalised completely by 2023.
While the IAF has operationally inducted 5 such French fighters, an additional 3-4 jets will come by end of this month or early November. “This will keep happening every 3-4 months,” he said.
The IAF chief also said integration of Rafale brings in a platform, which is the way ahead and would give the force an edge and capability to strike first and deep.
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God knows. The alphabet soup never stops flowing!
MRCA -> MMRCA -> Single Engine something something something -> MRFA -> WTFA
Seriously, WTF is wrong with these people! They have spent 20 years and they are still playing RFI RFI.
Bring in Make in India and Atma-Nirbhar Bullshit and we will ensure that there will never be any procurement till 2047.
India SERIOUSLY DESERVES A CRUSHING DEFEAT! A defeat so bad that there will be a reckoning to all of its bureaucrats.
I SERIOUSLY WISH CHINA INVADES INDIA ALL THE WAY TILL DELHI. THESE IDIOTS IN MINISTRIES, BEAUROCRACY AND PARLIAMENT DESERVE TO BE SHOWN HOW INCOMPETENT THEY ARE!
@Falcon Once more dude, how you folks in forces actually tolerate these idiots in ministries and leadership.
Su 35 is in the competition. Apparently this competition doesn't have any limit on weight class. The Russians were rumoured of introducing the su57 too. Must have realised that they could be embarrassed by rafale or f15EX..
IAS and Babudom. They are direct descendents of gora-sahabs.
Thats nothing... Once someone from a very reputable media in India put the picture of a JF-17 as a IAF platform and a Shaheen missile as a picture of Indian missile.... Sky is the limit with these folks...
Su-35 is just as shitty as MKI. Su-57 has not even achieved IOC AFAIK. There is no way that shot will get selected... Neither will F-15EX because it heavy, no matter how good it is. Typhoon will be overpriced. The competition is between Rafale and F/a-18 SH. SH is an outdated platform, so spares will be a concern for MLU. if the deal ever materialises, I think Rafale will be awarded the tender.
But MRFA tender is as dead as the previous one IMO.
IAF will keep buying more Rafales. 36 more are guaranteed, as we know from the CAS 's recent presser. I wonder what they'll do when Rafale F4 comes out...
I'd be more concerned about MKI upgrade. Dy CAS said that they are looking to put Uttam scaled up version on MKI, and that's at least 3 years away. So upgrade will also start only a few years down the line.. Things are looking bleak for the next few years..
20 more years of drama...
Most likely China will attack us before that and we will order 80-90 Mig 29s and 10 and a half Rafale as "emergency" order. :lol:
Rafale is the most complete product out of all of them. The f15 Ex is better in some aspects but looses out due to its rcs and lack of future upgradeability. Typhoon would have been a good contender but the partner nations have lost interest and it's just too expensive to maintain (looking at the German experience). The fa/18 is a fat pig that's all. IAF is filled with highschool jocks when it comes to aircrafts. They will choose an aircraft that can actually fly instead of the fat pig that is the super hornet...