MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

Are we really looking for building the capabilities now to prevent enemy aggression?

Doesn't look like it. Neither GoI nor IAF are showing the level of urgency we would like to see, it's obvious they know more than we do. I think the IAF is more willing to wait for new tech than get shortchanged with older tech. This is what Picdel and I are discussing.

If the IAF ends up with 114 Rafale F4, then both LCA Mk2 and MKI MLU will end up with better avionics. And this difference will get even worse with later batches of LCA and MKI 'cause we are using our own tech. In the meanwhile those 36+114 Rafales will be stuck with GaAs for the next 20-30 years. We will literally be inducting the least advanced jet in our arsenal by 2035.

We really don't need any weapons in future if we lose Delhi to chinese/Pakistan now.

India's enemies aren't powerful enough on the ground on either side. The army's doing all the heavy lifting, with all their imported gear, which has put both countries on the defensive.

It's funny. In just 2 or 3 years, China will be ready to fight the US. But they need at least 10+ years to do the same against India.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Doesn't look like it. Neither GoI nor IAF are showing the level of urgency we would like to see, it's obvious they know more than we do. I think the IAF is more willing to wait for new tech than get shortchanged with older tech. This is what Picdel and I are discussing.

If the IAF ends up with 114 Rafale F4, then both LCA Mk2 and MKI MLU will end up with better avionics. And this difference will get even worse with later batches of LCA and MKI 'cause we are using our own tech. In the meanwhile those 36+114 Rafales will be stuck with GaAs for the next 20-30 years. We will literally be inducting the least advanced jet in our arsenal by 2035.



India's enemies aren't powerful enough on the ground on either side. The army's doing all the heavy lifting, with all their imported gear, which has put both countries on the defensive.

It's funny. In just 2 or 3 years, China will be ready to fight the US. But they need at least 10+ years to do the same against India.

What about Rafale F4.2 MKI with GaN based Uttam derivative for MRFA

 

[Hydra]

it's obvious they know more than we do. I

Yeas,they know better. But we cannot rule out a politician with Chinese or Pakistan link is sabotaging by misleading the personals responsible for procurement or by siting in key position.

 

[Hydra]

India's enemies aren't powerful enough on the ground on either side. The army's doing all the heavy lifting, with all their imported gear, which has put both countries on the defensive.

It's funny. In just 2 or 3 years, China will be ready to fight the US. But they need at least 10+ years to do the same against India.

You need to induct a platform now to use it effectively against 10 years from now.

What about Rafale F4.2 MKI with GaN based Uttam derivative for MRFA

You are the one who will buy custom made RR phantom and put Tata nano engine in it.

 

[randomradio]

What about Rafale F4.2 MKI with GaN based Uttam derivative for MRFA

Replacing the Rafale's core avionics will make it useless to us.

 

[randomradio]

You need to induct a platform now to use it effectively against 10 years from now.

That's for new tech that's just achieved IOC/FOC. It takes about 7 years to get enough numbers of expert pilots and ground crew.

Operationalising an existing jet takes only 2-3 years. That's the point of buying proven jets.

But operationalising the Rafale can be done in just 1 year, due to French assistance. And this has already been achieved with the Rafale already. Any new avionics configuration, like F4 to F5, requires only simulator training, which can begin long before the first F5 is delivered.

 

[randomradio]

Yeas,they know better. But we cannot rule out a politician with Chinese or Pakistan link is sabotaging by misleading the personals responsible for procurement or by siting in key position.

Single individuals cannot block military programs. It can only be done by the Executive.

 

[Hydra]

That's for new tech that's just achieved IOC/FOC. It takes about 7 years to get enough numbers of expert pilots and ground crew.

Operationalising an existing jet takes only 2-3 years. That's the point of buying proven jets.

But operationalising the Rafale can be done in just 1 year, due to French assistance. And this has already been achieved with the Rafale already. Any new avionics configuration, like F4 to F5, requires only simulator training, which can begin long before the first F5 is delivered.

That is if Rafale win the contract.

Single individuals cannot block military programs. It can only be done by the Executive.

Yeas. If he is in key position. Remember vk krishnamenon & AK Antony.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That is if Rafale win the contract.

And who can win this contract if not Rafale?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Replacing the Rafale's core avionics will make it useless to us.

I concur! That was just a wild idea to have quick induction of MRFA Rafale 4.2 with GaN radar.

But yes, having a desi AESA radar in Rafale along with rest of our Russo/Indian fighter-fleet would be like putting too many eggs in one basket. We need variety to surprise the enemy. So RBE2-XG it's then. As per @Picdelamirand-oil it should be ready by 2030. So let's see how it all transpires...


Looks like my prediction of selecting MRFA between Rafale F5 and F-35 Block-4 will prove wrong

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I concur! That was just a wild idea to have quick induction of MRFA Rafale 4.2 with GaN radar.

But yes, having a desi AESA radar in Rafale along with rest of our Russo/Indian fighter-fleet would be like putting too many eggs in one basket. We need variety to surprise the enemy. So RBE2-XG it's then. As per @Picdelamirand-oil it should be ready by 2030. So let's see how it all transpires...


Looks like my prediction of selecting MRFA between Rafale F5 and F-35 Block-4 will prove wrong

The RBE2 XG complete with multi-function antennae all around the aircraft around 2031, maybe 2032 because our minister has been vague. But I could see a step towards this RBE2 XG with a GaN main antenna to replace the AESA GaAs around 2028 - 29 on F4.3 Rafales.

 

[Ryuuma8]

An interesting thing happened during a recent joint exercise between Indonesia and France Air Force 3 weeks ago, Rafale is said to be able to lock on Indonesian F-16 at a distance of 80 NM (nautical mile).

Source
Trying out the Rafale "Backseat", an Air Force Aviator Can Lock 6 Targets Simultaneously

An Air Force fighter aviator, Major Pnb Dedi "Kingbee" Andres, had the opportunity to try out the Rafale fighter jet from the French Air Force which was visiting Indonesia.

Dedi "Kingbee", who is an aviator from Air Squadron 1 of Supadio Air Base, tried flying the Rafale from the backseat.

During the three-hour flight, Dedi and the French Air Force pilot carried out an Air to Air Refueling (AAR) mission using an A-330 MRTT tanker aircraft.

This AAR mission also involved three Air Force F-16 fighter aircraft from Air Squadron 3 and Air Squadron 14 of Iswahjudi Air Base in the Iswahjudi Air Base training area, East Java, on Tuesday (25/7/2023).

"During the three-hour flight, a lot of Rafale sophistication was seen and felt directly by "Kingbee", starting from the ideal aircraft cockpit design, powerful aircraft engines, and sophisticated aircraft avionics systems," said Head of the Air Force Information Service (Kadispenau) Marsma R Agung Sasongkojati in a written statement, Thursday (27/7/2023).

Agung said, "Kingbee" also shared his experience when Rafale was able to lock three F-16 aircraft from a distance of 80 NM or 140 kilometers that were taking off from Iswahjudi Air Base.

Within 40 NM or 70 kilometers, the camera on the left nose of the aircraft was able to visually display the three locked aircraft on the screen display in the cockpit.

"Dedi also recognized the Rafale aircraft's radar system capability that can track 40 targets and lock onto six targets simultaneously. Likewise, the electronic warfare and data link capabilities are very significant," Agung said.

Rafale is also capable of performing Air Combat Maneuvers well, including for Beyond Visual Range, Air to Air and Air to Ground.

Currently, the French Air Force is exhibiting Rafale fighter jets at the South Terminal of Halim Perdanakusuma Air Base, East Jakarta, in the Pegase 2023 mission.

It is known that the Rafale fighter jet from the manufacturer Dassault Aviation was ordered by Indonesia to strengthen the Indonesian Air Force.

In the Pegase 2023 mission, the French Air Force actually brought a total of six Rafale fighters, four Airbus A400M transport aircraft, and three A-330 MRTT tankers.

However, based on Kompas.com's observation on Wednesday, there were only two Rafale units and one A-330 MRTT. Other aircraft will arrive at Halim Airport gradually.

Pegase 2023 mission leader Lieutenant Colonel Henri said the Rafale on display had been used by the French Air Force since 2006.

"So in this operation, we want to deepen partnerships, cooperation in the Pacific region and Indonesia, of course to deepen partnerships with the TNI," Henri said.

The Pegase 2023 mission is also a continuation of the Jeanne d'Arc 23 mission stopover and Guard Guerrier exercises, as well as the empowerment of the French defense aeronautics industry.

It is planned that the French Air Force will carry out a number of joint activities with the Indonesian Air Force until Sunday (30/7/2023).

In addition to Indonesia, the French Air Force also visited Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, Japan, Qatar, and Djibouti.

 

[Hydra]

And who can win this contract if not Rafale?

There are many now. In MMRCA drama 1 both EFT & Rafale were shortlisted, EFT lost only because of elevated price. But this time they are coming with 30-35% reduced rice tag. Another strong contender is nothing but EAGLE.

 

[Herciv]

Agung said, "Kingbee" also shared his experience when Rafale was able to lock three F-16 aircraft from a distance of 80 NM or 140 kilometers that were taking off from Iswahjudi Air Base.

Within 40 NM or 70 kilometers, the camera on the left nose of the aircraft was able to visually display the three locked aircraft on the screen display in the cockpit.

These two ranges are of great interrest.
The 40 NM of the camera mean that at this range A pilot can identify a plane, not only to detect it but to identify !!!!

 

[Rajput Lion]

These two ranges are of great interrest.
The 40 NM of the camera mean that at this range A pilot can identify a plane, not only to detect it but to identify !!!!

Which variant of Rafale it was? Indian F3R(I) have got OSF-IT/NG that should have even more range for the TV camera along with extended range(100km+) IRST.

But nonetheless even 70kms target IDing is extremely impressive

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Which variant of Rafale it was? Indian F3R(I) have got OSF-IT/NG that should have even more range for the TV camera along with extended range(100km+) IRST.

But nonetheless even 70kms target IDing is extremely impressive

Pegase 2023 mission leader Lieutenant Colonel Henri said the Rafale on display had been used by the French Air Force since 2006

So it's very old Rafale.... F3R with old OSF then old IRST. For the time being there is no new Rafale in operation.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

There are many now. In MMRCA drama 1 both EFT & Rafale were shortlisted, EFT lost only because of elevated price. But this time they are coming with 30-35% reduced rice tag. Another strong contender is nothing but EAGLE.

Will the EFT win out over the Rafale when India has already ordered 62 Rafales? Even with a 35% discount, the price of the EFT will be barely lower than that of the Rafale, because the MMRCA was 20% more expensive. What's more, the infrastructure and ISEs have already been paid for with the first contract and the installation of a production line will be much quicker for the Rafale than for the EFT, bearing in mind that the training of technicians has already been underway for some time.

As for the EAGLE, it's a dinosaur compared with the Rafale F4.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

AKARTA, KOMPAS.com - Head of the Air Force Information Service (Kadispenau) First Marshal (Marsma) R Agung Sasongkojati believes that Air Force pilots will quickly adapt to Rafale fighter jets.

Agung said this while reviewing the French Air Force's Rafale fighter jets that were carrying out the Pegase 2023 mission at the southern terminal of Halim Perdanakusuma Air Base, East Jakarta, Wednesday (26/7/2023).

"If (Air Force pilots) already have a fighter aircraft qualification, in less than 100 hours they are experts in operating this aircraft," Agung said at the location.

Agung, who is an F-16 fighter pilot, said that the Rafale is equipped with advanced technology. "It flies long distances, can carry all kinds of missiles, sophisticated weapons, and everything is controlled by the latest radar too. So this is an aircraft that all pilots want to fly," Agung said.

 

[Hydra]

Will the EFT win out over the Rafale when India has already ordered 62 Rafales? Even with a 35% discount, the price of the EFT will be barely lower than that of the Rafale, because the MMRCA was 20% more expensive. What's more, the infrastructure and ISEs have already been paid for with the first contract and the installation of a production line will be much quicker for the Rafale than for the EFT, bearing in mind that the training of technicians has already been underway for some time.

As for the EAGLE, it's a dinosaur compared with the Rafale F4.

1)India went with mig29 instead of ordering more Mirages.
2) we need a heavy fighter to replace the early inducted MKIs,also the mkis converted as Brahmo carriers.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

1)India went with mig29 instead of ordering more Mirages.

That's your biggest mistake

2) we need a heavy fighter to replace the early inducted MKIs,also the mkis converted as Brahmo carriers.

The Rafale is a medium fighter (almost light, 10 tonnes empty, compared with 8 tonnes for a Mirage) with the performance of a heavy fighter (9.5 t payload, compared with 8.13 t for the SU-30 MKI).