MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 29 12.4%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 184 79.0%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 10 4.3%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 8 3.4%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    233

Pour le ministre des Armées, le Rafale porté au standard F5 devra être mis en service à l’horizon 2030

For the Minister for the Armed Forces, the Rafale upgraded to the F5 standard should be in service by 2030

In January 2019, the French Ministry of Defence awarded Dassault Aviation the contract to develop and integrate the F4 version of the Rafale. Clearly, this programme has gone relatively quickly, with the first aircraft upgraded to the F4.1 standard delivered to the French Air Force and Navy at the beginning of this year. And the manufacturer assures us that the "full standard", which paves the way for collaborative combat, "will be delivered in 2024".

But what about the Rafale F5, which, according to General Stéphane Mille, Chief of Staff of the AAE [CEMAAE], will be a "very different" aircraft?

According to his explanations, "the radar, electronic countermeasures and the computer needed for connectivity will have been modified", which will require "computing capacities capable of processing hundreds of thousands of items of information"... and therefore "fibre optic cabling" that "the Rafale as we know it today is not capable of supporting".

In addition, and as specified in the draft Military Programming Law [LPM] 2024-30, this Rafale F5 will be accompanied by a combat drone developed from the nEUROn demonstrator, designed as part of a European cooperation led by Dassault Aviation.

The Rafale's F5 standard is designed to ensure that the French air force is able to cope with increasingly effective air defences and operate in contested environments, which requires a special effort in the area of electronic warfare. Lastly, it should enable the ASN4G nuclear-capable missile to be deployed, replacing the ASMP-A used by the Strategic Air Forces [FAS] and the Nuclear Naval Air Force [FANu].

"The F5 will be the continuation of collaborative combat. This is developing and already exists in the F4, thanks to communication architectures defined with cyber issues in mind. The more connected we are, the more vulnerable we are. So we're going to have to be more connected and less vulnerable. That's the major challenge for future standards", explained Éric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, at a recent Senate hearing.

It remains to be seen what the development timetable for this Rafale F5 will be.

Speaking to the Senators on the Foreign Affairs and Armed Forces Committee, Mr Trappier gave a target date of 2035.

"Dassault Aviation had in mind an F5 standard by 2032. The trend is towards a slight shift to 2035. Modernisation of the Rafale will therefore be post-LPM in both cases. The important thing is to see that there is a synchronisation between the arrival of new types of weapons, as part of the airborne nuclear component, and the fact that the aircraft itself must evolve with the times. In other words, the Rafale will have to strengthen its weapons system in line with operational feedback", he explained.

Mr Trappier added: "The sooner the F5 standard is specified, the better we can prepare for it, complementing what we are already doing with the F4. If F5 is scheduled for 2035, it will be in 2035. It's not me who decides, it's the State".

Appearing before the same Senate committee on 7 June, the Minister for the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, gave a different, much more ambitious timetable. "The Rafale F5 is in the LPM. I chaired a Ministerial Investment Committee [CMI] a few weeks ago, which will enable us to launch the F5 standard. This means that all the funding for feasibility studies is in the LPM, that this obviously includes the nEUROn and that this will enable us to commission it by 2030" or "at the start of the next LPM", he said.

"This is a key point, because some people have tried to pit the F5 standard against the SCAF [Future Air Combat System, being developed in cooperation with Germany and Spain, editor's note], but I would remind you that we are not in the same timeframe and that there will then be cohabitation, if I dare say so, between the two", continued the Minister, referring to the "post-2040" deadline for the SCAF.

"And so, for the time being, it is our political responsibility to make the F5 standard [...]. And not just for ourselves. I have the weakness to think that, on the export market, the F5 must find its partners around the Rafale club", concluded Mr Lecornu.
 
New capabilities and new munitions for the Rafale F5

In addition to the UAVs themselves, the Rafale F5 will be equipped with new munitions and new capabilities, enabling it to overcome certain relative weaknesses vis-à-vis the F-35. This is particularly the case in the area of suppression of adversary anti-aircraft defences, commonly referred to by the acronym SEAD which, as we have reported several times since 2018, represented a major gap in the Rafale's operational panoply until now.

Although the composition of this capability, which will be fitted to the Rafale F5, has not yet been officially presented, we can assume that it will be based on the joint use of radar jammers in addition to the aircraft's self-defence systems, to give it the possibility of encompassing other aircraft in its protective bubble, as well as one or more anti-radiation munitions, designed to move up the adversary's radar beam in order to destroy it.

New ammunition for the Rafale F5

The FMC is intended to replace the SCALP cruise missile currently fitted to the Rafales of the French Air Force and Naval Aviation.

The Rafale F5 will also be designed to deploy the new Franco-British FMC (Futur Missile de Croisière) and FMAN (Futur Missile Anti-Navire) missiles, which will replace the SCALP/Storm Shadow cruise missile and the AM39 Exocet missile respectively.

These two long-range precision munitions, currently under development, will have advanced features such as stealth and hypersonic speed to challenge modern air defence systems such as jamming and decoy systems, and will give the aircraft highly advanced long-range strike capabilities in the decades to come.

The aircraft will also be fitted with a pod that merges the capabilities of the Talios target designation pod and the RECO NG reconnaissance pod into a single piece of equipment, giving the fighter highly accurate tactical air-to-ground, air-to-surface and even air-to-air vision, and thus multiple operational options while remaining in non-emitive mode.

Finally, the Rafale F5 will be designed to operate the new ASN4G nuclear-tipped hypersonic cruise missile, which is to replace the ASMPA in the two squadrons of the French Air and Space Force and the flotillas of the French Navy forming the air component of the French deterrent. However, this capability, although critical for French defence, will probably have very little influence on the international market.

Other munitions and capabilities could be integrated into the Rafale F5 by 2030. These include light precision air-to-ground munitions such as the BAT-120 LG from Thales, as well as medium-range prowler munitions, especially as these light weapons would naturally find their place on board the combat UAVs supporting the aircraft, including Remote Carriers.

It will also benefit from the Rafale F4's current arsenal, including the Meteor and MICA NG air-to-air missiles, as well as the highly effective ASSM-propelled glide bombs.

As a result, by 2030, the Rafale F5 will have a comprehensive and highly modern operational toolbox, perfectly in line with and even superior in some respects to that offered by the F-35, depriving the latter of one of the key assets on which it built its commercial success.

The Rafale Club revolution

The Rafale F5 will therefore be a highly modern, high-performance air combat system that is exceptionally well equipped to meet the challenges of the coming decades. However, the Rafale F3 could boast comparable advantages over the F-35A in a number of recent competitions, all of which went in favour of the American aircraft.

Clearly, Dassault Aviation and the French Ministry of Defence have taken full account of the causes of these failures, and intend to rectify them with the Rafale F5, by equipping the aircraft with a discourse and a commercial environment designed to stand up to the American aircraft.

Firstly, it was necessary to come up with a new sales pitch for the F-35. Lockheed-Martin has developed an extremely effective marketing strategy in recent years, presenting not the current performance of the proposed aircraft, but its future performance and capabilities.

And while the timetable and capabilities promised have clearly been far too optimistic to date, this approach has proved highly effective.

Several Rafale operators, such as Greece, have an aeronautical industry that could participate in the development of the aircraft.
For example, during the Dutch competition, the Rafale F3 had to demonstrate its operational capabilities in the face of mere technical and commercial promises from Lockheed-Martin, a good third of which have since been broken. Similarly, Switzerland based its decision on future promises from Lockheed-Martin, both in terms of budget and performance.

Up until now, France had confined itself to protesting against the US strategy in this area, without much success. With the Rafale F5, it is taking the opposite position.

Not only does it promise future performance and capabilities, but it will also be able to demonstrate that the Rafale has followed the same development paths since it entered service, including for its customers. In other words, the Rafale F5 will be fighting with the same weapons, but with sharper arguments against the F-35A in the years to come.

Above all, at the same time as announcing the new timetable for the Rafale F5, aiming for entry into service in 2030, the French Ministry of Defence announced the creation of a "Rafale Club", an initiative designed to bring together users to deal with maintenance and upgradability issues, and to influence and even participate in the development of new capabilities and even new standards for the Rafale. This is not a new strategy, as the success of the Leopard 2 tank was largely based on a similar approach.

But it also represents a profound conceptual revolution in France's approach to the Rafale, making all current and potential users partners and stakeholders in the future of the aircraft and its capabilities.

This new strategy will enable the industrial aeronautical capabilities of Rafale users to be integrated much more effectively into the aircraft's ecosystem, and is a strong argument in favour of the French fighter over the F-35A and its excessively closed environment in the hands of Lockheed-Martin and Washington.

The price argument

Finally, the Rafale F5 will be able to rely on one last strong argument against the F-35A in the years to come: its price. Not that the French aircraft will be cheaper to buy than the Lockheed-Martin fighter.

Since the beginning of this tug-of-war between Lockheed-Martin and Dassault, the two aircraft have systematically been in a similar price range for the acquisition of the aircraft as well as the systems, munitions and all the services required to operate them.

However, for a number of years now, it has been apparent that the cost of owning the F-35A has not only failed to fall to meet the targets initially set by the US Air Force, but has actually continued to rise, well beyond the rate of inflation alone.

Despite Lockheed-Martin's commitments, the cost of owning the F-35 remains very high, and is even tending to rise faster than inflation.

Until now, this drift has been ignored in the equipment competitions in which the fighter has taken part, both because of Lockheed-Martin's perfectly oiled discourse supported by the US State Department, and because of the obvious short-sightedness, whether deliberate or not, of the European, Korean or Australian negotiators on this subject.

However, the subject is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore, including for its main user, the US Air Force, which, without calling into question its attachment to the aircraft, is being forced into major budgetary planning circumnavigations in order to contain the time bomb represented by the aircraft's ownership costs.

And the same will apply on the international stage. Until now, potential customers have been able to feign good faith and ignore the signals in this area, so as to be able to turn to the aircraft offering the most promising technological and operational environment in the making. But this will no longer be the case in the years to come, as the F-35's budgetary shortcomings become increasingly obvious and impossible to ignore, while the promised operational advantages will have been erased, and in some cases far surpassed, by the Rafale F5's new capabilities.

Conclusion

As we have just seen, the arrival of the Rafale F5, and to some extent its mere announcement, will profoundly change the balance of power between the French fighter and its main adversary, the American F-35A. With renewed operational capabilities flirting with the 6ᵉ generation of combat, new-generation appendages and munitions, and a commercial strategy that represents a profound break with French tradition, Dassault Aviation's fighter will, in the years to come, more than match Lockheed-Martin's aircraft in almost every area.

However, the potential results of this strategy are difficult to assess. When the Rafale F5 enters service, the vast majority of European air forces will already be equipped with the F-35A/B, either partially or in full, making the aircraft a standard that will be very difficult to dislodge within NATO, as well as with the main players in the Western sphere of the Pacific theatre.

Similarly, many of the major air forces in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South America will already have undertaken their modernisation, and the market for the F5, apart from existing customers or those under negotiation in the short term (Iraq, Serbia and perhaps Colombia spring to mind), will be small, unless a new wave of international tensions leads to a new phase of densification of the world's air resources.

However, there are still some potentially important alternatives for the new French fighter. Saudi Arabia, for example, will have to replace its Panavia Tornado and F-15 aircraft over the next few years - a total of some 150 aircraft - as will Morocco, which will have to replace its F-5 and F-1 to keep pace with the modernisation of Algerian aircraft. In addition to Colombia, other South American countries such as Peru and Ecuador will also have to modernise their forces.

Finally, in Europe, Hungary will soon have to replace its Gripens, while some F-35 users, such as Denmark and Belgium, whose fleets are smaller because they are more expensive, could consider the French aircraft to increase their weight.

Be that as it may, it would appear that the Rafale F5 will, in many respects, be much more than just a new version of Dassault Aviation's jewel in the crown, but a genuine new departure for the aircraft, which could see its operational and commercial horizons radically reshaped for decades to come.

It would be hard to wish for more for the only fighter with exclusively European DNA at the moment.

You don't need reveal F5 plan now,or else qw will wait till f5 to come out.
 

Pour le ministre des Armées, le Rafale porté au standard F5 devra être mis en service à l’horizon 2030

For the Minister for the Armed Forces, the Rafale upgraded to the F5 standard should be in service by 2030

In January 2019, the French Ministry of Defence awarded Dassault Aviation the contract to develop and integrate the F4 version of the Rafale. Clearly, this programme has gone relatively quickly, with the first aircraft upgraded to the F4.1 standard delivered to the French Air Force and Navy at the beginning of this year. And the manufacturer assures us that the "full standard", which paves the way for collaborative combat, "will be delivered in 2024".

But what about the Rafale F5, which, according to General Stéphane Mille, Chief of Staff of the AAE [CEMAAE], will be a "very different" aircraft?

According to his explanations, "the radar, electronic countermeasures and the computer needed for connectivity will have been modified", which will require "computing capacities capable of processing hundreds of thousands of items of information"... and therefore "fibre optic cabling" that "the Rafale as we know it today is not capable of supporting".

In addition, and as specified in the draft Military Programming Law [LPM] 2024-30, this Rafale F5 will be accompanied by a combat drone developed from the nEUROn demonstrator, designed as part of a European cooperation led by Dassault Aviation.

The Rafale's F5 standard is designed to ensure that the French air force is able to cope with increasingly effective air defences and operate in contested environments, which requires a special effort in the area of electronic warfare. Lastly, it should enable the ASN4G nuclear-capable missile to be deployed, replacing the ASMP-A used by the Strategic Air Forces [FAS] and the Nuclear Naval Air Force [FANu].

"The F5 will be the continuation of collaborative combat. This is developing and already exists in the F4, thanks to communication architectures defined with cyber issues in mind. The more connected we are, the more vulnerable we are. So we're going to have to be more connected and less vulnerable. That's the major challenge for future standards", explained Éric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, at a recent Senate hearing.

It remains to be seen what the development timetable for this Rafale F5 will be.

Speaking to the Senators on the Foreign Affairs and Armed Forces Committee, Mr Trappier gave a target date of 2035.

"Dassault Aviation had in mind an F5 standard by 2032. The trend is towards a slight shift to 2035. Modernisation of the Rafale will therefore be post-LPM in both cases. The important thing is to see that there is a synchronisation between the arrival of new types of weapons, as part of the airborne nuclear component, and the fact that the aircraft itself must evolve with the times. In other words, the Rafale will have to strengthen its weapons system in line with operational feedback", he explained.

Mr Trappier added: "The sooner the F5 standard is specified, the better we can prepare for it, complementing what we are already doing with the F4. If F5 is scheduled for 2035, it will be in 2035. It's not me who decides, it's the State".

Appearing before the same Senate committee on 7 June, the Minister for the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, gave a different, much more ambitious timetable. "The Rafale F5 is in the LPM. I chaired a Ministerial Investment Committee [CMI] a few weeks ago, which will enable us to launch the F5 standard. This means that all the funding for feasibility studies is in the LPM, that this obviously includes the nEUROn and that this will enable us to commission it by 2030" or "at the start of the next LPM", he said.

"This is a key point, because some people have tried to pit the F5 standard against the SCAF [Future Air Combat System, being developed in cooperation with Germany and Spain, editor's note], but I would remind you that we are not in the same timeframe and that there will then be cohabitation, if I dare say so, between the two", continued the Minister, referring to the "post-2040" deadline for the SCAF.

"And so, for the time being, it is our political responsibility to make the F5 standard [...]. And not just for ourselves. I have the weakness to think that, on the export market, the F5 must find its partners around the Rafale club", concluded Mr Lecornu.

Better to lean on the 2035 date, until 2030 becomes rock solid in terms of confirmation.

But it's entering AMCA territory.
 

Pour le ministre des Armées, le Rafale porté au standard F5 devra être mis en service à l’horizon 2030

For the Minister for the Armed Forces, the Rafale upgraded to the F5 standard should be in service by 2030

In January 2019, the French Ministry of Defence awarded Dassault Aviation the contract to develop and integrate the F4 version of the Rafale. Clearly, this programme has gone relatively quickly, with the first aircraft upgraded to the F4.1 standard delivered to the French Air Force and Navy at the beginning of this year. And the manufacturer assures us that the "full standard", which paves the way for collaborative combat, "will be delivered in 2024".

But what about the Rafale F5, which, according to General Stéphane Mille, Chief of Staff of the AAE [CEMAAE], will be a "very different" aircraft?

According to his explanations, "the radar, electronic countermeasures and the computer needed for connectivity will have been modified", which will require "computing capacities capable of processing hundreds of thousands of items of information"... and therefore "fibre optic cabling" that "the Rafale as we know it today is not capable of supporting".

In addition, and as specified in the draft Military Programming Law [LPM] 2024-30, this Rafale F5 will be accompanied by a combat drone developed from the nEUROn demonstrator, designed as part of a European cooperation led by Dassault Aviation.

The Rafale's F5 standard is designed to ensure that the French air force is able to cope with increasingly effective air defences and operate in contested environments, which requires a special effort in the area of electronic warfare. Lastly, it should enable the ASN4G nuclear-capable missile to be deployed, replacing the ASMP-A used by the Strategic Air Forces [FAS] and the Nuclear Naval Air Force [FANu].

"The F5 will be the continuation of collaborative combat. This is developing and already exists in the F4, thanks to communication architectures defined with cyber issues in mind. The more connected we are, the more vulnerable we are. So we're going to have to be more connected and less vulnerable. That's the major challenge for future standards", explained Éric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, at a recent Senate hearing.

It remains to be seen what the development timetable for this Rafale F5 will be.

Speaking to the Senators on the Foreign Affairs and Armed Forces Committee, Mr Trappier gave a target date of 2035.

"Dassault Aviation had in mind an F5 standard by 2032. The trend is towards a slight shift to 2035. Modernisation of the Rafale will therefore be post-LPM in both cases. The important thing is to see that there is a synchronisation between the arrival of new types of weapons, as part of the airborne nuclear component, and the fact that the aircraft itself must evolve with the times. In other words, the Rafale will have to strengthen its weapons system in line with operational feedback", he explained.

Mr Trappier added: "The sooner the F5 standard is specified, the better we can prepare for it, complementing what we are already doing with the F4. If F5 is scheduled for 2035, it will be in 2035. It's not me who decides, it's the State".

Appearing before the same Senate committee on 7 June, the Minister for the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, gave a different, much more ambitious timetable. "The Rafale F5 is in the LPM. I chaired a Ministerial Investment Committee [CMI] a few weeks ago, which will enable us to launch the F5 standard. This means that all the funding for feasibility studies is in the LPM, that this obviously includes the nEUROn and that this will enable us to commission it by 2030" or "at the start of the next LPM", he said.

"This is a key point, because some people have tried to pit the F5 standard against the SCAF [Future Air Combat System, being developed in cooperation with Germany and Spain, editor's note], but I would remind you that we are not in the same timeframe and that there will then be cohabitation, if I dare say so, between the two", continued the Minister, referring to the "post-2040" deadline for the SCAF.

"And so, for the time being, it is our political responsibility to make the F5 standard [...]. And not just for ourselves. I have the weakness to think that, on the export market, the F5 must find its partners around the Rafale club", concluded Mr Lecornu.

F4.2 concludes in 2030. The announcement of F5 is for it to start in 2030. I have seen that a finish date on a chart posted here is 2040.

Do you have a copy of the full interview? The F4.2 block obsolesce, without upgrade to F5 seems a concern.


DGA engineer info in Air Fan interview.

This can be translated as follows: we have pushed back to the F5 standard the elements of the initial F4.2 standard which could have prevented all the current Rafales from being able to climb to the F4.2 standard.

As the commonality of standards is an undeniable advantage, we decided to push this advantage to the maximum.

As a result, the latest F4.2 standard is undoubtedly a little less ambitious than the initial one (but only slightly less, I assure you).

And the things that really require airframe modifications (even if invisible to the naked eye) - like integrating GaN-compliant antennae on the leading edges of the wings, for example - have been pushed back to the F5 standard.

In 10 or 15 years' time, therefore, there will be just 2 standards: F4.2 or F4.3 and F5 (F5 will then evolve into F6 and others, if required, and F4.x will also take on whatever it can from future developments).

The transition from F3R to F4-1 is software only, whereas the F5 standard will require a visit to the manufacturer, to change some modules and modify others. But this modification will only be possible on the latest generation of F3Rs, which means that only export customers will be affected.

For the AAE, this will necessarily be an order for new aircraft, except for the last 28 aircraft to be delivered shortly and the 12 additional aircraft replacing the Greek aircraft, which will be the same as those delivered to our customers, i.e. pre-packaged.

No airframe modifications are planned for the various F5-xxs. Hence the statements about "different standards".
 
Do you have a copy of the full interview? The F4.2 block obsolesce, without upgrade to F5 seems a concern.

DGA engineer info in Air Fan interview.

This can be translated as follows: we have pushed back to the F5 standard the elements of the initial F4.2 standard which could have prevented all the current Rafales from being able to climb to the F4.2 standard.

As the commonality of standards is an undeniable advantage, we decided to push this advantage to the maximum.

As a result, the latest F4.2 standard is undoubtedly a little less ambitious than the initial one (but only slightly less, I assure you).

And the things that really require airframe modifications (even if invisible to the naked eye) - like integrating GaN-compliant antennae on the leading edges of the wings, for example - have been pushed back to the F5 standard.

In 10 or 15 years' time, therefore, there will be just 2 standards: F4.2 or F4.3 and F5 (F5 will then evolve into F6 and others, if required, and F4.x will also take on whatever it can from future developments).

The transition from F3R to F4-1 is software only, whereas the F5 standard will require a visit to the manufacturer, to change some modules and modify others. But this modification will only be possible on the latest generation of F3Rs, which means that only export customers will be affected.

For the AAE, this will necessarily be an order for new aircraft, except for the last 28 aircraft to be delivered shortly and the 12 additional aircraft replacing the Greek aircraft, which will be the same as those delivered to our customers, i.e. pre-packaged.

No airframe modifications are planned for the various F5-xxs. Hence the statements about "different standards".

The French have made the Rafale more suitable for their operating environment. The Russians are yet to enter the AESA era and they are doing it with GaAs. So there's no urgency on part of the French to go for GaN for example.

Otoh, the Chinese could get GaN very early, possibly in a year or two, if not already, so GaN is much more urgent for the US and India.

India is looking at a very early adoption of GaN. Our ground radars have been GaN for over a decade now, via Israel, and even our short range SAMs are getting GaN, apart from other indigenous solutions. And GaN for fighters is also in the works for quick service entry, anytime between 2026 and 2028, around the same time as the F-35 gets a GaN radar.
 
Our order book is full, so we're in no particular hurry!
It's amazing how people(especially Brits) used to laugh at Rafale's export sales(or lack of it), but now Rafale has destroyed both Typhoon and Gripen in export sales. It proved why your decision to move ahead alone was spot on.

I just hope French go alone on SCAF as well. No one in Europe can make fighter jets like French/Dassault. You're the only one countering the American hegemony.
The French have made the Rafale more suitable for their operating environment. The Russians are yet to enter the AESA era and they are doing it with GaAs. So there's no urgency on part of the French to go for GaN for example.

Otoh, the Chinese could get GaN very early, possibly in a year or two, if not already, so GaN is much more urgent for the US and India.

India is looking at a very early adoption of GaN. Our ground radars have been GaN for over a decade now, via Israel, and even our short range SAMs are getting GaN, apart from other indigenous solutions. And GaN for fighters is also in the works for quick service entry, anytime between 2026 and 2028, around the same time as the F-35 gets a GaN radar.
Not sure about this but as per some Russian sources, production spec Byelka might use GaN modules, so French better expedite their GaN development on Rafale, IMO.
 
Not sure about this but as per some Russian sources, production spec Byelka might use GaN modules, so French better expedite their GaN development on Rafale, IMO.

The jets currently ordered will not have GaN radar. So it's not expected at least until 2029 at the minimum.
 
The French have made the Rafale more suitable for their operating environment. The Russians are yet to enter the AESA era and they are doing it with GaAs. So there's no urgency on part of the French to go for GaN for example.

Otoh, the Chinese could get GaN very early, possibly in a year or two, if not already, so GaN is much more urgent for the US and India.

India is looking at a very early adoption of GaN. Our ground radars have been GaN for over a decade now, via Israel, and even our short range SAMs are getting GaN, apart from other indigenous solutions. And GaN for fighters is also in the works for quick service entry, anytime between 2026 and 2028, around the same time as the F-35 gets a GaN radar.
It will always be possible to replace the main antenna of the GaAs radar with a GaN antenna. What is more difficult on older Rafales is to add side antennas, for example, because the wiring and cooling system would have to be changed. But this was already the case when we went from F1 to F3R, and in the end the Navy decided to apply the retrofit, which enabled it to have 3 retrofitted aircraft for the price of a new one.

With the export sales of used Rafales, we have increased the number of Rafales that can be upgraded to F5: we will have the 28 that are currently being delivered and have yet to be delivered, the 24 that will replace the used Rafales exported, the 30 in the next tranche that will be part of the 42 ordered this year (30 + 12 Croatian) and the 15 in the last tranche, i.e. a total of 28 + 24 + 30 + 15 = 97 out of a total of 225 Rafales. All it takes is one Rafale F5 in a patrol for the whole patrol to benefit from its performance.
 
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Reactions: Rajput Lion
Do you have a copy of the full interview? The F4.2 block obsolesce, without upgrade to F5 seems a concern.
No, we don't have it in text form, we have it in the form of a Video in French, but the article I've linked to quotes exactly what the Minister said:

"Le Rafale F5 est dans la LPM. J’ai présidé un Comité ministériel d’investissement [CMI], il y a quelques semaines, qui permet justement de lancer le standard F5. Cela veut dire que l’ensemble des sommes pour les études de faisabilité est dans la LPM, que ça emporte évidemment le nEUROn et que ça nous permet d’avoir la mise en service pour 2030" ou au " début de la LPM suivante ", a-t-il dit.
Translation:

"The Rafale F5 is in the LPM. I chaired a Ministerial Investment Committee [CMI] a few weeks ago, which will enable us to launch the F5 standard. This means that all the sums for feasibility studies are in the LPM, that this obviously includes the nEUROn and that this will enable us to commission it by 2030" or "at the start of the next LPM", he said.

 
It will always be possible to replace the main antenna of the GaAs radar with a GaN antenna. What is more difficult on older Rafales is to add side antennas, for example, because the wiring and cooling system would have to be changed. But this was already the case when we went from F1 to F3R, and in the end the Navy decided to apply the retrofit, which enabled it to have 3 retrofitted aircraft for the price of a new one.

With the export sales of used Rafales, we have increased the number of Rafales that can be upgraded to F5: we will have the 28 that are currently being delivered and have yet to be delivered, the 24 that will replace the used Rafales exported, the 30 in the next tranche that will be part of the 42 ordered this year (30 + 12 Croatian) and the 15 in the last tranche, i.e. a total of 28 + 24 + 30 + 15 = 97 out of a total of 225 Rafales. All it takes is one Rafale F5 in a patrol for the whole patrol to benefit from its performance.
I was asking about the "DGA engineer info in Air Fan interview" and if there was a full version of it.
Do we have a year of manufacture for those Rafales that can't be upgraded to F5 and will terminate at F4.2?
Rafales made before x year can't, Rafales made after x year can.
 
I was asking about the "DGA engineer info in Air Fan interview" and if there was a full version of it.
Do we have a year of manufacture for those Rafales that can't be upgraded to F5 and will terminate at F4.2?
Rafales made before x year can't, Rafales made after x year can.
No, Air Fan isn't an online magazine. You might be able to find images of the text in French, but I haven't looked. But what it does say is very clear: Only French Rafales produced before deliveries were halted in 2015 were not pre-wired, which means that all "export" Rafales are pre-wired. This rule is too general not to suffer a few exceptions, the most likely being the following:
  • Rafales sold second-hand to Greece
  • Rafales sold second-hand to Croatia
  • A number of Egyptian Rafales, production of which had been launched for France before deliveries were interrupted and which were reallocated to Egypt to meet very tight delivery deadlines. It can be estimated that 12 are not pre-wired.
But the next 43 are pre-wired, as are the 36 Qataris, the 36 Indians, the 80 Emiratis, the 42 Indonesians, the 26 Rafales for the Indian Navy and the 97 Rafales still to be delivered for France. Some of these will be delivered directly to the F5 standard.
 
No, Air Fan isn't an online magazine. You might be able to find images of the text in French, but I haven't looked. But what it does say is very clear: Only French Rafales produced before deliveries were halted in 2015 were not pre-wired, which means that all "export" Rafales are pre-wired. This rule is too general not to suffer a few exceptions, the most likely being the following:
  • Rafales sold second-hand to Greece
  • Rafales sold second-hand to Croatia
  • A number of Egyptian Rafales, production of which had been launched for France before deliveries were interrupted and which were reallocated to Egypt to meet very tight delivery deadlines. It can be estimated that 12 are not pre-wired.
But the next 43 are pre-wired, as are the 36 Qataris, the 36 Indians, the 80 Emiratis, the 42 Indonesians, the 26 Rafales for the Indian Navy and the 97 Rafales still to be delivered for France. Some of these will be delivered directly to the F5 standard.
Ok that's not too bad. Mostly the french aircraft and a dozen or so Egyptian. I can't see france spending much money on these, once F5 starts. So other than a few Egyptians, there won't be upset customers. I don't know how many French were made before 2015, I saw 11 a year at one stage.
 
Ok that's not too bad. Mostly the french aircraft and a dozen or so Egyptian. I can't see france spending much money on these, once F5 starts. So other than a few Egyptians, there won't be upset customers. I don't know how many French were made before 2015, I saw 11 a year at one stage.
It's simple: 225 (final target) - 97 (the count I gave of the pre-wired Rafales) = 128 Rafales limited to F4 and its upgrades, including 41 Navy Rafales (I think we'll be buying more of them around 2035)....
 
Better to lean on the 2035 date, until 2030 becomes rock solid in terms of confirmation.

But it's entering AMCA territory.
I listened to what the Minister said: the part that interests us starts at 1:20:14 and he said 2030 to designate the LPM (2024 - 2030) but for the entry into service of the Rafale F5 he clearly said "the start of the next LPM" which is less precise than 2030 and designates 2031 - 2032 instead.
 
I listened to what the Minister said: the part that interests us starts at 1:20:14 and he said 2030 to designate the LPM (2024 - 2030) but for the entry into service of the Rafale F5 he clearly said "the start of the next LPM" which is less precise than 2030 and designates 2031 - 2032 instead.

Yes. But it's getting pushed forward more and more. If the IAF signs up for more Rafales, those may not be the F5. If it's expected in 2031-32 then a signature will have to be postponed to 2028-29. That means even MRFA has to be delayed.

Or if we go for the F4, then AMCA Mk1 will end up being more advanced, alongside TEDBF.
 
Yes. But it's getting pushed forward more and more. If the IAF signs up for more Rafales, those may not be the F5. If it's expected in 2031-32 then a signature will have to be postponed to 2028-29. That means even MRFA has to be delayed.

Or if we go for the F4, then AMCA Mk1 will end up being more advanced, alongside TEDBF.
Normally, Rafale standards are software standards that can handle both old and new hardware. New equipment usually replaces old equipment and is designed to be plug and play. With the F5 standard, the novelty is that there is additional new hardware. The structural modifications of F5 are mainly the possibility of adding equipment, for example multifunction antennas, which implies changes to the cabling and the cooling circuit. For pre-wired aircraft, the F5 upgrade will be very light: the new elements will of course have to be purchased, but this is not a waste, and a software upgrade will be required. It is even possible that all the F5 elements that do not require structural modifications will be included in an F4.3, with the switch to F5 simply adding the new elements.
 
That means even MRFA has to be delayed.
Are we really looking for building the capabilities now to prevent enemy aggression?
We really don't need any weapons in future if we lose Delhi to chinese/Pakistan now.
Normally, Rafale standards are software standards that can handle both old and new hardware. New equipment usually replaces old equipment and is designed to be plug and play. With the F5 standard, the novelty is that there is additional new hardware. The structural modifications of F5 are mainly the possibility of adding equipment, for example multifunction antennas, which implies changes to the cabling and the cooling circuit. For pre-wired aircraft, the F5 upgrade will be very light: the new elements will of course have to be purchased, but this is not a waste, and a software upgrade will be required. It is even possible that all the F5 elements that do not require structural modifications will be included in an F4.3, with the switch to F5 simply adding the new elements.
F5 will comes with EW jamming capable Radars?
 
Normally, Rafale standards are software standards that can handle both old and new hardware. New equipment usually replaces old equipment and is designed to be plug and play. With the F5 standard, the novelty is that there is additional new hardware. The structural modifications of F5 are mainly the possibility of adding equipment, for example multifunction antennas, which implies changes to the cabling and the cooling circuit. For pre-wired aircraft, the F5 upgrade will be very light: the new elements will of course have to be purchased, but this is not a waste, and a software upgrade will be required. It is even possible that all the F5 elements that do not require structural modifications will be included in an F4.3, with the switch to F5 simply adding the new elements.

The F4 and F5 core avionics are said to be fundamentally different. If each jet costs $100M and core avionics cost even $20M out of that, the cost is too high for an early upgrade of the recently inducted jets. 'Cause when we sign a contract for 114, it's gonna be for all the same avionics. If options is part of the contract, then even the options will be for F4.

The only alternative is to delay MRFA or get stuck with a lot of jets a generation behind pretty much every other modern jet in the IAF's inventory with GaN.