MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 29 12.4%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 184 79.0%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 10 4.3%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 8 3.4%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    233
And wasn't there news about the Saudis wanting 100-200 Rafales last year?
There's a rumour that they want 120.

But also:
La fenêtre de tir du Rafale à Riyad obscurcie par les risques pesant sur les réseaux d'affaires
Rafale's window of opportunity in Riyadh obscured by risks to business networks

Berlin's blocking of the sale of new Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets opens up a potential window of opportunity for the French Rafale in Riyadh. However, the momentum could be undermined by the Saudi authorities' interest in Franco-Saudi defence business networks.
 
There's a rumour that they want 120.

But also:
La fenêtre de tir du Rafale à Riyad obscurcie par les risques pesant sur les réseaux d'affaires
Rafale's window of opportunity in Riyadh obscured by risks to business networks

Berlin's blocking of the sale of new Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets opens up a potential window of opportunity for the French Rafale in Riyadh. However, the momentum could be undermined by the Saudi authorities' interest in Franco-Saudi defence business networks.

What is it trying to say?
 
Which company is that? I don't believe it's a difficult problem to solve.
An article from 3 years ago, the situation has improved a little but is still not satisfactory.
Armement : la France confrontée à un renversement d’alliance en Arabie Saoudite
Armaments: France faces a reversal of alliance in Saudi Arabia

France is out of the game in Saudi Arabia. Its defence industrialists are less and less consulted by Riyadh for arms orders.

From slap in the face to disillusionment, France no longer really knows which saints to follow in Saudi Arabia to attract the good graces of Prince Mohammed ben Salman, known as MBS. In terms of arms sales, France is now outstripped by Italy, Spain and South Korea, which is very close to selling low-cost corvettes to Riyadh. The United States obviously remains out of the running. In the past, France regularly supplied the Kingdom as its second source of supply with warships for its western fleet and Crotale systems for its short-range air defence. This has no longer been the case since the arrival of Prince MBS, whose misunderstandings between the two countries can be traced back to the role played by ODAS in the relationship between the two countries. This company, which organised arms sales between Riyadh and Paris, is in the process of being dissolved at MBS's request. But it continues to manage ongoing contracts.

French manufacturers snubbed


Different times, different suppliers. French manufacturers are no longer even invited to take part in Saudi 'invitations to tender'. Naval Group has been superbly ignored by Riyadh for an order for two amphibious transport vessels. Negotiations have been underway since the autumn with Navantia, which was in Saudi Arabia in February to advance negotiations with SAMI (Saudi Arabian Military Industries), and a contract could be signed by the summer, according to our information. The Spanish group has already sold five Avante 2200 corvettes. This was a major first. Navantia and Fincantieri were consulted about the frigates, but not Naval Group. At the end of December, the Italian group announced that it had won a contract with the US army to build four warships, modified Lockheed Martin LCSs (Littoral Combat Ships), destined for Saudi Arabia. The contract is worth an estimated $1.3 billion. In short, nothing seems to be turning in France's favour any more, even if some manufacturers (Nexter, MBDA) have achieved some successes thanks to a better understanding of the local situation and good sales networks.

"The dice keep rolling, but I'm more worried about the yellow peril in the broad sense of the term", says an expert on the region. For the time being, France is trying to hang on to the modernisation of the Sawari II frigates, valued at nearly €1 billion, according to concordant sources. But here too, the Italians are trying to impose Leonardo's Kronos mobile multifunction radar to the detriment of Thales' radars. It should also be pointed out that the costly maintenance of Arabel radars on the Sawari II frigates has been a major bone of contention between the French and the Saudis - Thales having failed to take account of Saudi requests and the Saudis having overlooked the importance of maintenance - and between Naval Group and Thales, who are sometimes brothers in arms when it comes to exports. To hear one side or the other tell it, the blame seems to be shared between the French and the Saudis, but the damage is done... However, the electronics group is trying to give itself another chance by proposing its new Sea Fire radar, which the ministry considers to be very effective and which is currently under development.

France snubbed, Germany desired

While France is making efforts to normalise its relations with Saudi Arabia, it is still not being listened to very much by Riyadh. For example, Jean-Yves Le Drian's visit to Riyadh on 16 and 17 January for talks with his counterpart, Prince Faisal bin Farhan Al Saud, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and Adel al Jubeir, Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, was "disastrous" on the arms front, according to one observer. The foreign minister had arrived with a long list... It was a real flop. What the Quai d'Orsay called a "disappointment" in a memo was in reality a change of alliance on the part of Riyadh, which Paris apparently did not fully understand.

Yet the entire defence ecosystem had been filled with hope after the telephone conversation on 17 September between Emmanuel Macron and the Crown Prince. The President strongly condemned the attacks on oil sites in Abqaiq and Khurais by Houthi drones. He reaffirmed France's commitment to the security of Saudi Arabia and the stability of the region. And in response to a request from the Saudi authorities, Emmanuel Macron confirmed to MBS that French experts would be sent to Saudi Arabia to take part in investigations aimed at shedding light on the origin and details of the attacks on 14 September.

Thales and MBDA have therefore proposed systems to counter this threat. France, for its part, has sent a Giraffe Made in Sweden (Saab) surveillance radar. According to the French Armed Forces General Staff, "around fifty Air Force personnel" are taking part in this operation. In other words, the Ministry of the Armed Forces is promoting Made in France in Saudi Arabia at a time when Thales is trying to sell its radars in the kingdom... If the Ministry had wanted to shoot Thales in the foot, it wouldn't have done it any other way.

Should France change its strategy with Riyadh?

But this parenthesis was quickly closed. The Saudi Foreign Minister's visit to Germany was a huge slap in the face for France. While Paris is prepared to sell arms to Riyadh (in vain!), Prince Faisal bin Farhan Al Saoud urged Germany to lift its arms embargo. The last straw... The freeze on export licences and the halt to deliveries must be effectively renegotiated between the coalition partners by 31 March. Wielding the carrot and the stick at the same time, the Foreign Minister reminded the German press agency DPA in an interview of the "high quality of German weapons", but warned that "there are other sources where you can obtain such weapons". He concluded that "we will buy what we need, where we can get it".

From being a generous land for the French arms industry, Saudi Arabia, like Egypt, has become a barren land. Faced with such a reversal of alliance, France needs to think about a new strategy. Why does it continue to provide operational support to the Saudi army without demanding industrial compensation for its commitment? Since the Spanish and Italians seem to be the main beneficiaries of Saudi Arabia's change of alliance, why don't they provide this support themselves? In Paris, some people are considering a tougher policy towards Riyadh, because for the time being, France has accepted its support for MBS's autocratic regime and the war it has unleashed in Yemen, in the eyes of the public, the media and NGOs. Without any return. This altruism, which is increasingly considered politically suicidal, may not last forever, especially in the run-up to the 2022 presidential election.
 
From slap in the face to disillusionment, France no longer really knows which saints to follow in Saudi Arabia to attract the good graces of Prince Mohammed ben Salman, known as MBS.

Has something happened between the French govt and MBS?

From being a generous land for the French arms industry, Saudi Arabia, like Egypt, has become a barren land.

Am I missing something here, 'cause I thought Egypt bought a lot of military hardware already? Were even the top importers of French weapons. There was some noise about human rights, but then came the second Rafale deal. Plus France and Egypt are allies over Libya.

So Saudi, Egypt and France are allied when it comes to Libya.

So Iran?
 
It will be interesting to see what Indonesia thinks about both Rafale and IFX.
It doesn't matter as long as we aren stuck up with "tender, tendering the tender,retendering the tender, conclusion of winner, negotiation with L1, cancellation of tender" mentality.
Didn't you guys withdraw support to Argentina during a real war(Falklands!!)?
Face palm, stupidity at its peak again. Expecting to a NATO member ditch another NATO member?
 
I noted that the Radar RBE2 XG would be able to operate in X band but also in Ku and Ka band and that we plan to use it for collaborative jamming. And that it will also have Electronic Attack capabilities that use components that can transform missiles already deployed into anti-radar missiles.
 
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There will also be more and more new waveforms that need to be analyzed for self-protection and offensive jamming systems. The solution is to be able to have automatic on-board processing which samples in real time the frequency bands used by all the threats, which makes a spectrum of 30Ghz.

So SPECTRA will also have to switch to GaN and equip itself with a supercomputer to deal with the complexity and multiplicity of opposing waveforms.

The collaboration between the Radar and SPECTRA will make it possible to have a vast protection bubble including the patrol and the Remote Carrier evolving inside the interdiction bubbles.
 
Comment les drones collaboratifs vont-ils bouleverser le marché des avions de combat ?

How will collaborative drones disrupt the fighter aircraft market?


29 July 2023

The new capabilities offered by collaborative combat drones will not only change strategies and doctrines, but also the fighter aircraft market in the years to come.

Since its arrival on the international fighter aircraft market some fifteen years ago, Lockheed-Martin's F-35 Lighting II has won the lion's share of international competitions, with firm orders from no fewer than 14 air forces outside the United States.

And the momentum shows no signs of slowing, with many other countries, including five European ones (Germany, Spain, Greece, the Czech Republic and Romania), having announced their intention to acquire one in the short or medium term.

In many cases, the American aircraft has won the competition against other American and European fighters, including the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, the European Typhoon and the Boeing Super Hornet.

In each case, the Lighting II was declared the winner, mainly because of its more recent design, but also because of its stealth, bearing in mind that the political and military weight of the United States came into play in many cases.

However, this well-established hierarchy could be called into question in a few years' time, with the arrival of the new so-called collaborative combat drones, which will be capable of operating alongside and for the benefit of manned combat aircraft, and which are being actively developed around the world, with the American and Australian Skyborg and Loyal Wingman programmes, and the European Remote Carrier.

These new aircraft, which will act as appendages to combat aircraft, multiplying their detection and action capabilities, will profoundly change the way air warfare operations are conducted, and with them the very role of combat aircraft in this future system.

In such a scenario, the key arguments that have made the F-35 such a success over the last 15 years may well no longer prove decisive when compared with the characteristics that other, sometimes older, aircraft, such as the Rafale from Dassault Aviation, are able to put forward.

Despite its qualities, the French Rafale has never beaten the American F-35A in past competitions. But the imminent arrival of collaborative drones could well change the game in this area.

Collaborative UAVs, whether Loyal Wingmen or Remote Carriers, represent a new generation of combat UAVs designed to be controlled by a combat aircraft, thereby extending its capabilities. Unlike current UAVs, such as MALE UAVs, these will not be remotely piloted, but simply controlled by the crew of the combat aircraft, with the piloting function being managed by artificial intelligence.

These new drones will be of variable size, shape and capability, depending on their mission, and will be able to carry sensors and effectors (missiles, bombs, jammers, etc.) so as to multiply the combat capabilities and tactical options of the aircraft being piloted, especially as a single fighter aircraft will be able to control several of these drones simultaneously.

It is therefore easy to understand the extent to which the arrival of these new systems will revolutionise the conduct of air warfare operations, this time bringing it into a truly new generation, much more surely than was the case with the arrival of the famous 5ᵉ generation of fighter aircraft.

This transformation will also radically change the role of fighter aircraft in this new environment, ultimately redistributing the cards as regards their high value-added capabilities, decisive criteria both in combat and when awarding contracts.

Indeed, the fighter aircraft will see its primary role evolve from that of vector to that of coordinator. Today, a fighter aircraft is above all a centralised platform capable of receiving, transporting and deploying detection systems and munitions, whether for air superiority, strike or intelligence missions.

The fighter aircraft is therefore first and foremost a delivery vehicle, which must itself be in place and in the right position to carry out its mission, which naturally exposes it to numerous threats. In fact, qualities such as stealth are very important in increasing the survivability of the aircraft, and therefore its effectiveness in combat.

On the other hand, aeronautical qualities such as speed, range and load-carrying capacity are less critical in the face of these high value-added capabilities. This approach will change radically with the arrival of collaborative UAVs, since it will be these, and not the aircraft itself, that will play the role of vector and combat aircraft.

In other words, the qualities that are so popular with 5ᵉ generation aircraft will be easily and economically transposed to these drones, such as stealth, while the fighter aircraft will have to rely on other qualities, such as great autonomy, high speed, and even the ability to carry heavy loads in the case of Remote Carriers, for example.

The second critical characteristic of a combat aircraft for effectively controlling collaborative UAVs will naturally be the size of its crew. For the American researchers, it currently seems very risky to rely on single-seat aircraft to effectively operate several of these UAVs around and for the benefit of a combat aircraft, as the additional cognitive load imposed on the pilot by the control of these UAVs is far too great for effective mission management.

In fact, while a single-seat fighter, such as the F-35A or Rafale C, will be able to control one or two of these future UAVs simultaneously, a two-seat fighter, such as the Rafale B, will be able to control more than twice as many, offering enhanced operational capabilities to both the crew and the air force deploying it.

The third characteristic, which is becoming essential for the deployment of these future drones, is the ability of the aircraft to evolve to incorporate this major development.

In addition to the fact that aircraft will have to undergo radical evolution to be able to communicate and interact effectively with these drones, the latter will have to evolve much more rapidly than combat aircraft themselves, probably at the same pace as fighter aircraft in the 50s and 60s, when a new fighter model entered service every 3 or 4 yea

To achieve this, piloted aircraft will have to demonstrate an extraordinary ability to evolve, both to integrate these new systems and to maintain the ergonomics and efficiency of the man-machine interface. This presupposes, in addition to technical design qualities, a high degree of stability in the system of systems at the heart of the aircraft.

Other qualities, such as availability and maintainability, will also be given greater weight in future analysis grids, with the arrival of combat UAVs, since it is likely that the operational intensity per aircraft will increase as the risk to the aircraft and its crew diminishes.

But the points raised here are enough to suggest the extent to which the F-35's superiority in the fighter aircraft market could be diminished in the years to come. Indeed, the aircraft's stealth, one of its main assets, will lose much of its aura in the face of the ability to effectively operate only one or two UAVs due to its single-seat nature.

Other aircraft, such as the F5 version of the Rafale B, will offer much better performance and capabilities than in the past because of changes in the air battlefield, as well as its two-seat and twin-engine configuration, its range and its speed.

Above all, the Rafale's ability to evolve, which has been amply demonstrated to date, and the stability of its system, will be invaluable assets in the face of the F-35, which is still struggling to stabilise its on-board information system, and for which each evolution represents a critical challenge.

It is therefore easy to understand the extent to which Dassault Aviation and the Rafale team as a whole can be confident about the durability of their aircraft in the years to come, to the extent that in the future, once the first MBDA Remote Carriers have been integrated into the French aircraft, it may well be able to more than match the F-35 in future international competitions.

The same will naturally apply to other models, such as the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E/F and the Boeing F-15EX, which also seems particularly well suited to controlling cooperative UAVs.

In this respect, it will be particularly interesting to observe the influence that the arrival of these drones, and the experience gained in particular in integrating them with older generation aircraft, will have on the design of 6ᵉ generation combat aircraft, such as the American NGAD, the British Tempest and the European SCAF.

In particular, we can question the relevance of designing these aircraft in a single-seat version, while some experts warn against this configuration for interacting and controlling these drones.

One thing is certain, however: it seems essential for France not only to maintain its efforts to upgrade its Rafale, but also to develop, at a sustained pace, the first Remote Carrier type solutions designed to evolve with the future F5 standard, in order to accumulate as quickly as possible not only technical but also operational expertise in this area, which is set to become critical, both for the conduct of air warfare and for promoting the aircraft and its techno-system on the international stage.
 
Face palm, stupidity at its peak again. Expecting to a NATO member ditch another NATO member?
The two belligerents were our allies, so we had to choose! And the British were a member of NATO like France.

LOL, I don't think SA or India is NATO. They and a few others, may have a shock coming. Everyone is a customer, no guarantee or refunds.
 
What potential military conflict is there between India and any NATO country? I haven't heard about any irredentist claim by India on the Chagos archipelago like Argentina had on the Malvinas.
Its not always territorial conflict that makes enemies. Competition for resources and desire to maintain leverage over other countries for greater financial benefits makes cntries oppose each other. How do you think most of the european cntries ended up in asia or aftrica? when diplomacy fails then it leads to armed conflict.
 
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