It's the favorite.
That is the Executive. You really think Modi and Rajnath Singh have Pakistani or Chinese links?
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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It's the favorite.
That is the Executive. You really think Modi and Rajnath Singh have Pakistani or Chinese links?
I concur! That was just a wild idea to have quick induction of MRFA Rafale 4.2 with GaN radar.
But yes, having a desi AESA radar in Rafale along with rest of our Russo/Indian fighter-fleet would be like putting too many eggs in one basket. We need variety to surprise the enemy. So RBE2-XG it's then. As per @Picdelamirand-oil it should be ready by 2030. So let's see how it all transpires...
Looks like my prediction of selecting MRFA between Rafale F5 and F-35 Block-4 will prove wrong
Anytime between 2031 and 2035. Until they set it in stone, the date is not final.
It's a very sticky situation.
No,I am telling if any person in key position can sabotage things in india.
If it so,then they should go g2g model. Bit that's not what we are doing,so Rafale just any aircraft is a participant in the mmca2 tendering.
No, they can't.
Cancel the tender and just buy 114 Rafales? We won't be able to set our own rules, and we will get price-gouged.
A tender gives the buyer control, a GTG gives the seller control. And the IAF needs a tender to study the future roadmap of all OEMs.
Is India not considering to buy KF-21? It's quite interesting because in 2030 this fighter already uses internal weapons bay, which mean stealth fighter.
Is India not considering to buy KF-21? It's quite interesting because in 2030 this fighter already uses internal weapons bay, which mean stealth fighter.
We have AMCA coming out around the same time. It has more advanced specs.
But it's a potential contender for a delayed MRFA program.
IAF should learn one basic thing.
Their job is to protect our sky,driver havoc on enemy on ground,control the enemy airspace,destroy enemy assist deep inside their territory. They are not created to develop domestic industry & giving business to them. We have a government, public & business men to develop industry base,but the above mentioned job like protecting airspace only can be done by IAF . If they keep on waiting,there won't be any sky left for india & need protection from IAF.
The IAF has to do both. It's about maintaining parity.
If the enemy imports jets, then we can afford to import, but once the enemy starts designing and building their own, we have no choice but to equalize that.
If we get rich enough, then we try and make the other guy chase after us.
It's all because imports are generally outdated compared to what's current.
No,desi industry will get boost the day our PM start flying in HAL designed aircraft first to abroad, let our pm start using a Desi four wheeler first. Why only Force needs to use Desi products?
Sarcasm aside, HAL is working on it, but it will take 20+ years.
IAF wants desi products. It's time. They want MRFA to be their last import.
You can't win such a war, just prolong it. What we need is 80-90% desi equipment minimum and in sufficiently large quantities if we are to fight a major war with China. Only 10% can be imports due to the need for familiarization, like an artillery gun.
Only desi equipment can help create massive reserves.
L’Arabie Saoudite pourrait se venger des USA en se tournant vers la France
Saudi Arabia could take revenge on the USA by turning to France
By Francis Noudé
Following a reduction in oil production by Saudi Arabia, US lawmakers have considered freezing all US arms sales to the kingdom. A situation that has highlighted the fragility of the kingdom, which is considering diversifying its partners.
Relations between the United States and Saudi Arabia have gone through tumultuous periods in recent years. The murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi in 2018 was a turning point, prompting strong international reactions and leading to US and German sanctions against Riyadh. In response to this deterioration in relations and other tensions, including a reduction in Saudi oil production, Saudi Arabia is currently reconsidering its strategic alliances, including considering the purchase of French-made Dassault Rafale fighter jets.
Following a reduction in oil production by Saudi Arabia, US lawmakers have considered freezing all US arms sales to the kingdom. This situation has highlighted the fragility of the kingdom, which is reportedly considering diversifying its partners. This potential interest in French military equipment is part of a diversification strategy. Saudi Arabia, which has historically depended on the United States and the United Kingdom for its military procurement, now seems to be looking for alternatives in the face of political uncertainty. The United Arab Emirates and Qatar, the kingdom's neighbours, have already incorporated Rafales into their arsenals, reinforcing the credibility of this option for Saudi Arabia.
More than just an act of purchase, such a move would signal a redefinition of Saudi Arabia's alliances on the world stage. France, with its history of diversified arms sales in the Middle East, appears to be an attractive partner. Unlike other Western countries, France seems less influenced by human rights concerns when it comes to arms exports.
Nevertheless, the acquisition of Rafales by Saudi Arabia would not be without challenges. The need to integrate new weapons systems and train pilots could pose difficulties. But Riyadh seems determined to secure its own strategic interests in this context of changing international relations. Ultimately, this potential purchase decision may be less about military equipment and more about a powerful symbol of evolving alliances and loyalties in an ever-changing Middle East.
Saudi Arabia could take revenge on the USA by turning to France
By Francis Noudé
Following a reduction in oil production by Saudi Arabia, US lawmakers have considered freezing all US arms sales to the kingdom. A situation that has highlighted the fragility of the kingdom, which is considering diversifying its partners.
Relations between the United States and Saudi Arabia have gone through tumultuous periods in recent years. The murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi in 2018 was a turning point, prompting strong international reactions and leading to US and German sanctions against Riyadh. In response to this deterioration in relations and other tensions, including a reduction in Saudi oil production, Saudi Arabia is currently reconsidering its strategic alliances, including considering the purchase of French-made Dassault Rafale fighter jets.
Following a reduction in oil production by Saudi Arabia, US lawmakers have considered freezing all US arms sales to the kingdom. This situation has highlighted the fragility of the kingdom, which is reportedly considering diversifying its partners. This potential interest in French military equipment is part of a diversification strategy. Saudi Arabia, which has historically depended on the United States and the United Kingdom for its military procurement, now seems to be looking for alternatives in the face of political uncertainty. The United Arab Emirates and Qatar, the kingdom's neighbours, have already incorporated Rafales into their arsenals, reinforcing the credibility of this option for Saudi Arabia.
More than just an act of purchase, such a move would signal a redefinition of Saudi Arabia's alliances on the world stage. France, with its history of diversified arms sales in the Middle East, appears to be an attractive partner. Unlike other Western countries, France seems less influenced by human rights concerns when it comes to arms exports.
Nevertheless, the acquisition of Rafales by Saudi Arabia would not be without challenges. The need to integrate new weapons systems and train pilots could pose difficulties. But Riyadh seems determined to secure its own strategic interests in this context of changing international relations. Ultimately, this potential purchase decision may be less about military equipment and more about a powerful symbol of evolving alliances and loyalties in an ever-changing Middle East.
France Should pitch FCAS to Saudi Arabia/UAE as a joint development programme.
France will only offend Iran mostly & Israel mildly.
And to what extent for the USA and the UK? Oh, and I forgot the kangaroos who pride themselves on jumping so much higher than the frogs - they're not going to like that.
Seriously asking! What's the impediment for this deal?
KSA & UAE have the capital and Dassault/Thales/Safran have the technical capability.
A certain level of political trust needs to be developed for long-term projects of this kind. For example, we reached this level with Australia and now it will be at least 50 years before it has a chance of coming back.
A potential first-of-its-kind fighter-jet purchase could be a sign Saudi Arabia isn't happy with what it's getting from the US
Paul IddonAug 21, 2023, 1:03 PM UTC+2
- Saudi Arabia is reportedly considering a large number of French-made Dassault Rafale fighter jets.
- Such a purchase would be a break from Saudi Arabia's long history of buying US and British jets.
- This suggests Riyadh doesn't think its traditional partners will be as reliable in the future.
In December, France's La Tribune financial newspaper, citing unnamed sources, reported that Saudi Arabia was considering acquiring 100 to 200 Dassault Rafale fighters. The report came amid developments suggesting that the US and other nations might not provide military equipment to Riyadh in the future.
After Riyadh cut oil production in October, US lawmakers proposed legislation freezing all American arms sales to the kingdom, which could have grounded most of the Saudi air force and would further fray already strained US-Saudi relations.
In July, Germany announced it would not allow additional Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets to be delivered to Saudi Arabia. The Saudi air force has 72 Eurofighters, second only to the number of US-made F-15s it has.
Saudi Arabia's neighbors in the United Arab Emirates and Qatar have built up large fleets of Western-made jets that include dozens of Rafales. The La Tribune report, while unconfirmed, suggests political and practical concerns are pushing the Saudis toward the French jet.
After Riyadh cut oil production in October, US lawmakers proposed legislation freezing all American arms sales to the kingdom, which could have grounded most of the Saudi air force and would further fray already strained US-Saudi relations.
In July, Germany announced it would not allow additional Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets to be delivered to Saudi Arabia. The Saudi air force has 72 Eurofighters, second only to the number of US-made F-15s it has.
Saudi Arabia's neighbors in the United Arab Emirates and Qatar have built up large fleets of Western-made jets that include dozens of Rafales. The La Tribune report, while unconfirmed, suggests political and practical concerns are pushing the Saudis toward the French jet.
French appeal
Buying more Typhoons would be "the sensible move" since the Saudis have the infrastructure to train pilots and operate that jet, "but a German block prevents that," said Sébastien Roblin, a widely published military-aviation journalist.
Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is "not currently inclined to throw Washington any free bones by ordering F-15EXs," and despite an "about-face" by President Joe Biden, Roblin said, the Saudis know that future jet sales "could be disrupted by domestic political revulsion for Riyadh's actions domestically or the war in Yemen."
As bin Salman pursues a detente with his main rival, Iran, and improves relations with China, opposition to such sales may only increase.
Roblin noted that France has sold armored vehicles, helicopters, artillery, air-to-ground Damocles targeting pods, and SCALP cruise missiles to Riyadh and that French political culture values having "a diversified, independent defense sector" and is therefore "much less susceptible to human-rights-based misgivings, which has enabled sustained arms sales to a wider stable of clients in the Middle East."
Consequently, Saudi Arabia buying 100 or more Rafales would be a big "economic win" that would "score Riyadh an upgraded strategic partner outside of Washington or London," Roblin said, though he pointed out that Gulf states have a habit of hyping arms buys from new sources, including Russia or China, to elicit "jealous counteroffers from their 'main' strategic partners."
Ryan Bohl, a senior Middle East and North Africa analyst at the risk-intelligence company RANE, said Rafales could be an "attractive option" to Riyadh, considering the sanctions the US and Germany imposed on it after the assassination of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi in 2018.
French jets are also modern and built by a NATO country, potentially reducing issues with integrating the jets with the Saudis' other Western aircraft. France's less restrictive end-user agreements "underlines this attractiveness," Bohl added.
Riyadh's non-NATO options for jets are relatively limited, and buying Russian or Chinese jets would likely incur US sanctions, which makes Saudi interest in the Rafale seem "realistic," Bohl said. "Saudi Arabia wants to diversify its air force so that if it has an interruption with one of its arm suppliers, like the United States, its air wing doesn't grind to a halt."
Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is "not currently inclined to throw Washington any free bones by ordering F-15EXs," and despite an "about-face" by President Joe Biden, Roblin said, the Saudis know that future jet sales "could be disrupted by domestic political revulsion for Riyadh's actions domestically or the war in Yemen."
As bin Salman pursues a detente with his main rival, Iran, and improves relations with China, opposition to such sales may only increase.
Roblin noted that France has sold armored vehicles, helicopters, artillery, air-to-ground Damocles targeting pods, and SCALP cruise missiles to Riyadh and that French political culture values having "a diversified, independent defense sector" and is therefore "much less susceptible to human-rights-based misgivings, which has enabled sustained arms sales to a wider stable of clients in the Middle East."
Consequently, Saudi Arabia buying 100 or more Rafales would be a big "economic win" that would "score Riyadh an upgraded strategic partner outside of Washington or London," Roblin said, though he pointed out that Gulf states have a habit of hyping arms buys from new sources, including Russia or China, to elicit "jealous counteroffers from their 'main' strategic partners."
Ryan Bohl, a senior Middle East and North Africa analyst at the risk-intelligence company RANE, said Rafales could be an "attractive option" to Riyadh, considering the sanctions the US and Germany imposed on it after the assassination of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi in 2018.
French jets are also modern and built by a NATO country, potentially reducing issues with integrating the jets with the Saudis' other Western aircraft. France's less restrictive end-user agreements "underlines this attractiveness," Bohl added.
Riyadh's non-NATO options for jets are relatively limited, and buying Russian or Chinese jets would likely incur US sanctions, which makes Saudi interest in the Rafale seem "realistic," Bohl said. "Saudi Arabia wants to diversify its air force so that if it has an interruption with one of its arm suppliers, like the United States, its air wing doesn't grind to a halt."
Shifting US-Saudi ties
In the near term, Saudi Arabia may find Rafales more burdensome than beneficial, given its extensive investment in US and British aircraft.
"I would be surprised if the Royal Saudi Air Force procured Rafale, given the size and well-established state of its F-15 and Typhoon fleets," Justin Bronk, an expert on airpower at the Royal United Services Institute, told Insider.
Such pragmatic concerns have kept Saudi Arabia from buying French fighters in the past. After all, Bohl said, it's much easier to build an air force with pilots who train on a single system or with systems from a single country of origin. And despite the sophistication of French military hardware, it hasn't been used in battle as much as US equipment has and therefore lacks a "combat record as a selling point" like US-made weapons, Bohl added.
Limits on the Rafale's technology and availability may also deter Riyadh.
While the Rafale F4 is "one of the most advanced and versatile of the 4.5-generation fighters on the market," it is "not a true stealth fighter" with the advanced capabilities Saudi Arabia wants, Roblin said.
Even if Riyadh ordered Rafales tomorrow, they would take at least several years to arrive. "Right now, a big problem is Dassault's factory is already booked with orders for over a hundred additional aircraft for Croatia, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Greece, and the United Arab Emirates," Roblin said.
The strength of US-Saudi relations has kept Riyadh firmly in the US camp for decades, but Bohl said that relationship has "fundamentally shifted" and the US is no longer "as expansive of a defense partner" as in the past, a trend that may add to the appeal of other countries' weapons.
"I would be surprised if the Royal Saudi Air Force procured Rafale, given the size and well-established state of its F-15 and Typhoon fleets," Justin Bronk, an expert on airpower at the Royal United Services Institute, told Insider.
Such pragmatic concerns have kept Saudi Arabia from buying French fighters in the past. After all, Bohl said, it's much easier to build an air force with pilots who train on a single system or with systems from a single country of origin. And despite the sophistication of French military hardware, it hasn't been used in battle as much as US equipment has and therefore lacks a "combat record as a selling point" like US-made weapons, Bohl added.
Limits on the Rafale's technology and availability may also deter Riyadh.
While the Rafale F4 is "one of the most advanced and versatile of the 4.5-generation fighters on the market," it is "not a true stealth fighter" with the advanced capabilities Saudi Arabia wants, Roblin said.
Even if Riyadh ordered Rafales tomorrow, they would take at least several years to arrive. "Right now, a big problem is Dassault's factory is already booked with orders for over a hundred additional aircraft for Croatia, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Greece, and the United Arab Emirates," Roblin said.
The strength of US-Saudi relations has kept Riyadh firmly in the US camp for decades, but Bohl said that relationship has "fundamentally shifted" and the US is no longer "as expansive of a defense partner" as in the past, a trend that may add to the appeal of other countries' weapons.
"Under previous kings, Saudi Arabia saw the United States as a reliable protector of its security and was willing to do favors through energy policy and arms deals for Washington in exchange for this guarantee," Bohl told Insider. "That led to Riyadh being less willing to do special favors for the United States, like going to it exclusively for arms purchases."
If SA want to send a message to GB and USA, with a good impact on its air force strength, I see a first purchase of 48.
Enough to wait the US and GB answer,
Enough to not have all the eggs in the same basket,
Too few for an arm race.