MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

If I wanted inputs from RST I would've asked RST but I didn't as I wanted facts from a RELIABLE source & not FACTION to be entertained.

RST should know the difference between the Hero / Protagonist of a masala blockbuster & his sidekick / comedian. It's because he's confused about his role that we face a lot of problems out here.

Besides it's true about engineers & ADE . Had the latter actually employed engineers they & consequently the country wouldn't be in a pickle.

In the event , the shortage in the number of Pilatus's to be procured was only ~ 36 nos . We're still flying ~ 76 nos of them aren't we ?

Besides we're still flying the Kiran IJT aren't we ?Granted they needed to be replaced as of yesterday & the IJT Sitara has been long delayed which incidentally was supposed to have been inducted late last year or early this year about which no news is forthcoming but the Kiran IJT are still being deployed for training .

In fact after we retired the basic trainer - Deepak , the Kiran was deployed to perform both roles - Basic as well as Intermediate Training.

 

[marich01]

ACM speech today

 

[Ashwin]

ACM speech today

Air Chief is pointing out the need for imports with private involvement when necessary.

I think they are adamant about creating a private alternative to HAL in the long run. Cant blame them with the past experiences.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I've already given some explanations, and they were very different from what you're reporting. What you report are the explanations of those who don't know the system and who explain it in such a way as to be able to attack it later.
My explanations start here:

Post in thread 'The Rafale and what you know about it.'

Nov 28, 2023

SPECTRA

At first, this was an ordinary system used for self-protection of the Rafale, quite classic all in all, but nonetheless with remarkable performance, so that it was increasingly used for purposes other than self-protection. What's unusual, at first, is that it has a built-in jammer that can be used in a wide range of frequencies in conjunction with a DRFM. It also detects using interferometric techniques. The combination of the two means that it can locate threats and therefore jam them in a directive manner, which is more discreet than a Growler, just as effective if not...

• Picdelamirand-oil

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• 
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But you must have been blocked on the first page by this post:

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/threads/the-rafale-and-what-you-know-about-it.3154/post-234938

And don't forget to have a look too:

So what makes Spectra special?
Which is a little further on.

Impressive write up besides being informative. But how do you plan to counter AI which will play a huge part in S/W for detection of hostiles separating wheat from chaff here onwards . SPECTRA may be a very effective tool to deal with the threats of today but what of the future ?

I believe @screambowl raised these points in a different thread.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Impressive write up besides being informative. But how do you plan to counter AI which will play a huge part in S/W for detection of hostiles separating wheat from chaff here onwards . SPECTRA may be a very effective tool to deal with the threats of today but what of the future ?

But we'll have AI too, we're already using them in Talios. An AI is like a brain, it needs matter to function and the matter is provided by sensors. Spectra is a sensor and an effector, it's very good in its field, and it will be even better combined with AI.

 

[Ashwin]

ACM speech today

Air Chief is pointing out the need for imports with private involvement when necessary.

I think they are adamant about creating a private alternative to HAL in the long run. Cant blame them with the past experiences.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1876626989387526509

 

[Rajput Lion]

Really like the current ACM as he seems very level-headed and flexible. Also concur with most of his view-points

 

[randomradio]

The electronic mirror is an analogy

It's not enough to get the core concept, 'cause what's happening at the point of reflection is not understood with just the mirror. I thought of catching a ball and immediately directing it back at the thrower, with the thrower deciding not to catch the return. But that's also just an electronic mirror with extra words. I guess there isn't a real world analogy.

 

[randomradio]

It will not. We need MKI replacement, and AMCA is not a true fighter like EFT or Rafale,its more like a strike fighter jet. We need & we must pursue for foreign vendors for fighter jet in future too.

Old AMCA was designed as a Jaguar replacement. It was a semi-stealth strike fighter with a 20T MTOW and powered by F414, no supercruise.

The new AMCA is a full-fledged ASF. Its MTOW is 27T, it has all-aspect stealth, 6th gen avionics, can supercruise etc. The Su-57 is at 33.5T in comparison.

A more definitive AMCA successor will come as well. But let's worry about that after AMCA achieves IOC/FOC. The govt won't allow a new program until AMCA attains maturity.

 

[randomradio]

A joint study would help the IAF flesh out requirements for a prospective 6G fighter faster. Even if we don't work together on a fighter, it might spin-off into collaboration on CCA/loyal wingman, next-gen weapons. Joint dev projects between France and India like Maitri (VL-MICA mod) have fizzled out in the past.

But this time France is actively looking for partners as it needs scale to reduce dev costs. India is no Indonesia and we can get a substantial workshare if we play our cards well.

MRFA will give us sufficient information when it comes to avionics.

It's too early for us to begin a 6th gen via collaboration without the AMCA and Ghatak first. Or whatever happened with FGFA will repeat. Our R&D is behind global R&D, but we should be able to catch up in 10 years.

TEDBF wasn't the IN's first choice but rather a compromise. ADA couldn't promise a 5G carrier based fighter within a reasonable timeframe and the IN settled for what was realistic.

Yeah. So the choice is between ADA developing a successor on their own or via collaboration. But I think they will opt for their own program. The idea behind collaboration is if you are short on money or technology, you gotta partner up. Maybe ADA will have the tech and funds for their own design by the mid-2030s.

IAF chiefs are on record pushing for international collabs to shorten dev timeframes and scaling production. IPR issues can be hashed out at the G2G level and enforced via sovereign guarantees.

I'm not sure if the IAF wants to collaborate that deeply on primary systems anymore. Radars, electronics and weapons, yes. But for aircraft, it's either indigenous or import.

If there is a need for SCAF or GCAP or similar, I think the IAF will just ask for a stopgap until an indigenous system becomes available. Next gen aircraft have become such that we no longer need massive numbers. Their greater endurance plus drones means significantly lower need for numbers. So a 2 squadron stopgap can go a long way in plugging gaps before ADA is able to deliver. For example, even USAF's global requirements across multiple continents needs only 200 NGAD. So we can make do with 40.

 

[randomradio]

Primary Esteemed Member doesn't realize that we had to cut short basic training from 75 hours to just 25-30 hours. And Kiran is ready for retirement, with no replacement in sight. They are compensating for low flighthours with simulators, which is sufficient for trained pilots, not rookies. Basically, our training sucks. BJT has increased training time, but not enough cadets. And now the drama will repeat with IJT. The IAF is eagerly awaiting FOC clearance for production start while Kiran is set to retire this year.

Esteemed Member should realize it would be a good idea to inform the less than informed Esteemed Member that we got to know sufficient details about active cancelation because yours truly spent quite a few years picking Picdel's brains since a decade ago that we have such information today.

Esteemed Member also needs to know I make it a habit to dumb down information enough for laymen to understand, which is not possible with the technical jargon associated with such topics. It's a given the Esteemed Member has failed to understand the topic.

Esteemed Member also needs to know all direct and indirect references to Esteemed Member is not necessarily meant for the eyes of the Esteemed Member, but to other readers who would like greater clarity on such topics.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Looks like more than the usual quota of 8 pm was imbibed last night. It was quite obvious. The hangover is still evident.

I'd have RST know that we've just completed near 100% electrification of our railway network. ~ 4500 diesel locomotives are now practically redundant , some 1000 were mfgd at GE Marhowrah in a bid they won as recently as 2015 & around 2017 Leaderji declared we'd have 100% rail network electrification by 2024 with the same pursued in mission mode by IR.

So why am I revealing this here ? Just to inform that thus is how we function. That if we wait for the ideal time to indegenize it'd never come. We'd have to crack the whip at some time beginning with zero imports on supporting elements like trainers hptrs etc.

That's what the brouhaha with IN over NUH / ALH was about a few years ago & back then I'd stated as much MoD would never give in to the IN's tantrums & the former didn't . IN fell in line in ways ACM VR Choudhary didn't with the result the IAF & the nation may well pay a heavy price for it though ofcourse in this case GoI can't escape its share of responsibility.

Long story short both the Basic Trainer & IJT will be indigenous & while the IAF will have to bear the brunt of it , that's the way it is. This is growing up in the 80s & 90s speaking where not a single month passed without an IAF plane falling from the sky usually in a MiG-21. IIRC more than 200 pilots lost their lives then . At least we're no longer facing such conditions today.

Long term we need an alternative to HAL . That's what the IAF ACM was venting about today in a speech. GoI too is working on it which is the reason AMCA was supposed to go to the pvt sector yet what happened ? Nobody turned up to bid & HAL will laugh all the way to the bank.

On behalf of the IAF , MoD , GoI & all the citizens of India let me take the opportunity to extend deep gratitude to RST for prising out information from the French & then liberally adding desi tadka to it before serving it to us.

On behalf of the forum I promise to get the issue raised in parliament & have a motion of thanks passed in the name of RST for the infotainment. Perhaps a TamraPatra will follow if not a Padma Bhushan since a Bharat Ratna would be overkill. All this would be accompanied by a 21 gun salute. Anything else ? Never ending supply of 8 pm for the rest of the life perhaps ?

Being a Mech Engineer , electric & electronics doesn't come easily to me. I've mentioned this before . Unlike RST I don't have any insecurities nor is there a pot of gold to be won here for being right. The latter is just a matter of ethics & later habit. Integrity is like Lycra. Either one has it or one doesn't. It's like that dialogue between the man with no name & Tuco towards the end of The Good The Bad & The Ugly - "you see my friend , there are 2 kinds of people in this world . Those with guns & those who dig. " You dig?

However I'm not totally convinced active stealth is some kind of silver bullet at least going ahead in the future whatever the case may be today. Call me sceptical or jaded by the world but in my experience if two sides make absolutist claims like the Americans for passive stealth vide shaping , RAM , RAS etc & the French for active stealth vide ACT etc then the truth usually is in between.

 

[screambowl]

Spectra is a sensor and an effector, it's very good in its field, and it will be even better combined with AI

This means some sort of hardware up-gradation is required onboard to make a sensor compatible with new AI Processor for connections and other sort of integration. Or a new sensor which will itself be a smart sensor to process data actively without the help of on board computer as a standalone system? Both are feasible I believe.

 

[Speedster1]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1877063236341862634