America wasn't a viable option for us 'cause ToT would have been extremely limited and we would have pissed off the SU in the process when we needed their help in developing a space and ballistic missile program.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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America wasn't a viable option for us 'cause ToT would have been extremely limited and we would have pissed off the SU in the process when we needed their help in developing a space and ballistic missile program.
I had asked RST to read the book - The Tejas Story by AVM Philip Rajkumar (the same person who headed NFTC - ADA between 1994-2001 until his retirement ) which documented the entire development story up until 2001 fairly competently.
And we're expected to believe the IAF was shoved out of the project. Of course asking for documentary evidence is like personally abusing him which is the reason he ignores to respect protocol.
I see he seems to have graduated to Bluff Master from Resident Story Teller which in itself was an upgrade from Resident Optimist given his recent shenanigans here. First it was Mk-2 = Mk-1a / Mk-1 + Plug analogous to Mk2 = AMCA Mk-1 + TE + IWB & now this toxicity he's subjecting us too.
And we're expected to believe the IAF was shoved out of the project. Of course asking for documentary evidence is like personally abusing him which is the reason he ignores to respect protocol.
I see he seems to have graduated to Bluff Master from Resident Story Teller which in itself was an upgrade from Resident Optimist given his recent shenanigans here. First it was Mk-2 = Mk-1a / Mk-1 + Plug analogous to Mk2 = AMCA Mk-1 + TE + IWB & now this toxicity he's subjecting us too.
DRDO should have stuck with the initial LCA plans, the IAF would have bought an old M2000 configured version with a less advanced French FBW had it come by the mid-90s, which the French would have helped deliver. People tend to forget that the IAF operated the M2000 with the same configuration until just a decade ago.
Then IAF would have bought 6 squadrons of that until 2002 or so, followed by more 2 more tranches of 6 squadrons each in more advanced configurations. Then we would've proceeded with the development of the old semi-stealth strike AMCA, which would have entered service in large numbers by now.
It's quite ironic but while ADA chose the big bang approach, the most successful labs in DRDO followed iterative development, like electronics and missiles. Similarly, ARDE followed the big bang approach and failed at making rifles. The successful ones kept their goals modest and kept expanding on those while taking foreign assistance wherever possible. And Mk1A is seen as a success because HAL followed that iterative development path ADA abandoned. Now ADA's following the iterative development path too, so we are bound to see some success in the future.
DRDO also should have kept the IAF in LCA since 1987 instead of bringing them in only after 2011.
Even with all the missteps, I think ADA might've managed to deliver LCA Mk1 more or less on time, had the US not sanctioned us post-Pokhran.
It's ironic to think today that around the time NG was helping China perfect the FC-1 design, the US chose to stick it to us by freezing the FBW for LCA, delaying the prog for years.
It's ironic to think today that around the time NG was helping China perfect the FC-1 design, the US chose to stick it to us by freezing the FBW for LCA, delaying the prog for years.
The tejas mk1 for now are just good replacements of mig27 and 23. We still need mk1a in numbers. On top of the flankers. The MMRCA needs to be scrapped entirely and we should do G2G deal with the Americans and the French. Just be done with it. The typhoon is not an option as we are dumb enough to not enter gcap.
It wasn't in time, it took 15 years extra. The LCA Mk1 in 2016 was significantly less capable than the 1993 version of the F-16, which was the LCA's development goal at the time for an early 2000 service entry.
Although the Americans kicked the CLAW team out of the US, they only lost 1 year's worth of data. And since the brains behind the FBW returned to India, they could replicate it in India. Basically the FBW was pretty much ready and tested on an F-16 before the team was sent home.
It wasn't just the FCS data they held back. Other critical components like Moog actuators and Martin Baker ejection seats were embargoed as well. Heck, it's amazes me that we didn't look for alternative suppliers in Russia and elsewhere, engines included. That would've been some justification for why the prog was delayed. Perhaps we wouldn't be in the situation we're in today.
Those were pointless, and would have eventually lifted. Even the engine was sanctioned, and we were pretty confident about Kaveri back then. We had alternate suppliers in Russia and France. Even Israel with their Lavi stuff.
The US/UK were already doing their best to wean India off of Russia even during that time. Plus France wasn't playing the sanctions game.
Except for a year-long delay during the R&D phase, there were no serious hurdles for LCA from foreign shores. The first time we faced serious issues after 1998-99 was when the UK delayed the supply of the refueling system for FOC and now the engine delays. The last one is the most serious delay.
The Expert Committee has recommended MRFA and GOI has also accepted it. @randomradio, you are vindicated once again
The Expert Committee has recommended MRFA and GOI has also accepted it. @randomradio, you are vindicated once again
The real question is if a stopgap 36 Rafales will be announced or not. It can plug the gap between 2030-32 if it's signed by 2027. It will be for the F5. And the additional 36 will ensure a full assembly line along with the IN's 26. It will give us a healthy 176-jet run and the IAF gets 186 jets in total.
Now that the induction of J-35 into PAF is (supposedly) imminent, I'd expected more than just another 'acceptance of necessity'. Isn't AoN accorded before a procurement case file is sent to DAC anyway? If they go the tender route, it'll be the fourth time, the IAF has tried to acquire a 4.5G fighter since 2001. Still no end in sight while the world moves on to 5G and soon 6G even. I wish they'd come up with a plan to build pvt sector assembly line(s) instead for LCA Mk1A, MK2 and AMCA. Modi needs to crack the whip and soon.The Expert Committee has recommended MRFA and GOI has also accepted it. @randomradio, you are vindicated once again
France could open a new Rafale fighter jet assembly line in India to fulfill large-scale contracts
6 March 2025 - 8:25 am
Defense News Aerospace 2025
As reported by L'Usine Nouvelle on March 5, 2025, the French company Dassault Aviation is assessing the possibility of establishing a final assembly line for the Rafale fighter jet in India to manage increased production demands following anticipated large orders. CEO Éric Trappier stated, “India is preparing major orders, and we could certainly open a final assembly line in that country to be able to absorb this new workload.” The company is already working to increase its production capacity, with ongoing efforts to ramp up monthly Rafale deliveries while managing supply chain constraints.
Dassault is in the process of increasing its Rafale production rate, especially given India’s expected procurement of additional Rafale-M carrier-based fighters. The company has transitioned from delivering two aircraft per month to three and aims to reach four, with the potential for five depending on future orders. In 2023, 13 Rafales were delivered, increasing to 21 in 2024, with a target of 25 for 2025. Dassault’s order book includes 230 Rafales, comprising 164 for export customers and 56 for the French Air and Space Force. In 2024, the company secured €8.3 billion in military contracts, compared to €6.5 billion in 2023. These contracts include orders for 12 aircraft from Serbia and 18 from Indonesia. The total backlog of Dassault military aircraft, including Rafales and Falcon jets, has reached €43.2 billion, up from €38.5 billion in 2023.
Despite efforts to increase production, Dassault is facing supply chain limitations, with certain subcontractors encountering delays following the pandemic. The company has opened a new facility in Cergy-Pontoise to support higher output and is considering additional infrastructure expansion. CEO Éric Trappier has stated that increasing production rates requires approximately two years for each incremental step. Dassault is also monitoring potential changes in U.S. trade policy, as a proposed 25% tariff on aircraft imports could impact Falcon business jet sales. The U.S. accounts for one-third of Falcon deliveries, and price adjustments may be necessary if tariffs are implemented.
India has received 36 Rafales under a 2016 contract, with deliveries completed by 2022. The Indian Air Force is considering further orders, while the Indian Navy is finalizing the acquisition of 26 Rafale Marine aircraft for operations from the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. The potential establishment of an Indian final assembly line would be consistent with the country’s "Make in India" policy, which aims to expand domestic defense manufacturing and reduce reliance on foreign suppliers. Dassault has increased its industrial involvement in India since the mid-2010s, setting up production partnerships and maintenance infrastructure to support the Rafale fleet.
In addition to procuring additional aircraft, India is integrating the Astra Mk1 missile into its Rafale fleet. The Indian Air Force has demonstrated the Rafale’s ability to intercept targets at high altitudes, including simulated reconnaissance balloons at 16.7 km altitude. These developments are part of broader efforts to enhance the aircraft’s operational capabilities within India’s defense strategy.
The Rafale is a twin-engine, canard delta-wing, multirole fighter developed by Dassault Aviation. It is designed for air superiority, deep strike, reconnaissance, and nuclear deterrence missions. The aircraft is equipped with the Thales RBE2 AESA radar, SPECTRA electronic warfare suite, and a range of guided munitions, including Meteor and MICA air-to-air missiles, SCALP cruise missiles, and Exocet anti-ship missiles. Powered by two Snecma M88 turbofan engines, the Rafale has a maximum speed of Mach 1.8, a combat range of 1,850 km, and the ability to sustain supercruise at Mach 1.4.
The Rafale M, the carrier-based variant, features a reinforced airframe, strengthened landing gear, and an arrestor hook for carrier landings. It is designed for catapult-assisted takeoff and arrested landings on aircraft carriers. The aircraft is intended to replace the Indian Navy’s MiG-29K fleet and will be used on INS Vikrant, India’s first domestically built aircraft carrier. The Rafale M’s deployment is part of India’s naval aviation strategy, which aims to enhance the capabilities of its carrier-based fighter fleet.
France could open a new Rafale fighter jet assembly line in India to fulfill large-scale contracts
6 March 2025 - 8:25 am
Defense News Aerospace 2025
As reported by L'Usine Nouvelle on March 5, 2025, the French company Dassault Aviation is assessing the possibility of establishing a final assembly line for the Rafale fighter jet in India to manage increased production demands following anticipated large orders. CEO Éric Trappier stated, “India is preparing major orders, and we could certainly open a final assembly line in that country to be able to absorb this new workload.” The company is already working to increase its production capacity, with ongoing efforts to ramp up monthly Rafale deliveries while managing supply chain constraints.
Dassault is in the process of increasing the production rate of the Rafale fighter jet from two to three aircraft per month, and is aiming to reach four aircraft, with a potential of five depending on future orders. (Picture source: Régiment de Chasse 2/30 Normandie Niémen)
Dassault is in the process of increasing its Rafale production rate, especially given India’s expected procurement of additional Rafale-M carrier-based fighters. The company has transitioned from delivering two aircraft per month to three and aims to reach four, with the potential for five depending on future orders. In 2023, 13 Rafales were delivered, increasing to 21 in 2024, with a target of 25 for 2025. Dassault’s order book includes 230 Rafales, comprising 164 for export customers and 56 for the French Air and Space Force. In 2024, the company secured €8.3 billion in military contracts, compared to €6.5 billion in 2023. These contracts include orders for 12 aircraft from Serbia and 18 from Indonesia. The total backlog of Dassault military aircraft, including Rafales and Falcon jets, has reached €43.2 billion, up from €38.5 billion in 2023.
Despite efforts to increase production, Dassault is facing supply chain limitations, with certain subcontractors encountering delays following the pandemic. The company has opened a new facility in Cergy-Pontoise to support higher output and is considering additional infrastructure expansion. CEO Éric Trappier has stated that increasing production rates requires approximately two years for each incremental step. Dassault is also monitoring potential changes in U.S. trade policy, as a proposed 25% tariff on aircraft imports could impact Falcon business jet sales. The U.S. accounts for one-third of Falcon deliveries, and price adjustments may be necessary if tariffs are implemented.
India has received 36 Rafales under a 2016 contract, with deliveries completed by 2022. The Indian Air Force is considering further orders, while the Indian Navy is finalizing the acquisition of 26 Rafale Marine aircraft for operations from the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. The potential establishment of an Indian final assembly line would be consistent with the country’s "Make in India" policy, which aims to expand domestic defense manufacturing and reduce reliance on foreign suppliers. Dassault has increased its industrial involvement in India since the mid-2010s, setting up production partnerships and maintenance infrastructure to support the Rafale fleet.
In addition to procuring additional aircraft, India is integrating the Astra Mk1 missile into its Rafale fleet. The Indian Air Force has demonstrated the Rafale’s ability to intercept targets at high altitudes, including simulated reconnaissance balloons at 16.7 km altitude. These developments are part of broader efforts to enhance the aircraft’s operational capabilities within India’s defense strategy.
The Rafale is a twin-engine, canard delta-wing, multirole fighter developed by Dassault Aviation. It is designed for air superiority, deep strike, reconnaissance, and nuclear deterrence missions. The aircraft is equipped with the Thales RBE2 AESA radar, SPECTRA electronic warfare suite, and a range of guided munitions, including Meteor and MICA air-to-air missiles, SCALP cruise missiles, and Exocet anti-ship missiles. Powered by two Snecma M88 turbofan engines, the Rafale has a maximum speed of Mach 1.8, a combat range of 1,850 km, and the ability to sustain supercruise at Mach 1.4.
The Rafale M, the carrier-based variant, features a reinforced airframe, strengthened landing gear, and an arrestor hook for carrier landings. It is designed for catapult-assisted takeoff and arrested landings on aircraft carriers. The aircraft is intended to replace the Indian Navy’s MiG-29K fleet and will be used on INS Vikrant, India’s first domestically built aircraft carrier. The Rafale M’s deployment is part of India’s naval aviation strategy, which aims to enhance the capabilities of its carrier-based fighter fleet.
France could open a new Rafale fighter jet assembly line in India to fulfill large-scale contracts
Only if the F-35 joins the tender. LM says they will participate with the F-16 instead.
F-21
Meet the F-21, specifically configured for the Indian Air Force, with unmatched 'Make in India' opportunities for advanced airpower.
And publicly, the IAF has made it an AMCA vs Su-57/F-35 competition. They are basically saying LCA and MRFA are necessary and we need an indigenous AMCA rather than import the F-35/Su-57 and the govt now agrees.
So MRFA will remain a competition between "proven 4.5th gen" jets, which means Dassault's main competitor is the Typhoon led by Airbus.
Earlier, while, I used to say we will have a F-35/Su-57 competition after MRFA (I've changed my mind since then), we still cannot outright dismiss any 5th gen stopgap requirement yet. And if there is any, it will not compete with MRFA, and any such announcement will be made only after MRFA is under cost negotiations or signed. So that risk is gone.
MRFA aka more Rafales are imperative. We've always known it. But if Trump/US administration is okay then we should also procure 2-3 squadrons of F-35, if not for anything then as a reference for our future VLO fighters. F-35 is still the most stealthiest of all 5th gen fighters.Only if the F-35 joins the tender. LM says they will participate with the F-16 instead.
F-21
Meet the F-21, specifically configured for the Indian Air Force, with unmatched 'Make in India' opportunities for advanced airpower.www.lockheedmartin.com
And publicly, the IAF has made it an AMCA vs Su-57/F-35 competition. They are basically saying LCA and MRFA are necessary and we need an indigenous AMCA rather than import the F-35/Su-57 and the govt now agrees.
So MRFA will remain a competition between "proven 4.5th gen" jets, which means Dassault's main competitor is the Typhoon led by Airbus.
Earlier, while, I used to say we will have a F-35/Su-57 competition after MRFA (I've changed my mind since then), we still cannot outright dismiss any 5th gen stopgap requirement yet. And if there is any, it will not compete with MRFA, and any such announcement will be made only after MRFA is under cost negotiations or signed. So that risk is gone.
Also, we should procure Su-57/60 as a counter to PAF/PLAAF 5th gen jets. Our procurement shouldn't be Rafale vs Su-57 vs F-35, but rather Rafale + F-35 + Su-57. Yeah, to many the above may look highly optimistic or even impossible but in-reality we need France + USA + Russia to defeat China. The above fighters just reflect this spirit.
If I understand correctly, according to you, the Rafale is on an almost inevitable trajectory towards production in India, but at the cost of weakening the country's combat aviation ambitions. The irony is that under the guise of self-sufficiency, India could lock itself into long-term dependence on the major foreign aerospace powers.
- The problems with the F404-IN20 for the Tejas Mk1A and the uncertainties over production of the F414-INS6 for the Mk2 show just how vulnerable India is to American decisions. Whether it's a supply chain problem or a deliberate restriction, it's blocking local programmes and reinforcing the need for a sovereign alternative.
- The IAF has never hidden its preference for the Rafale. The American hesitation over engines only reinforces this tendency, because it shows the risks associated with over-dependence on the United States. Eurofighter, which could have been an alternative, is too closely tied to the Americans to be a truly independent solution.
- The IAF urgently needs new fighters. It cannot afford to wait for a traditional MRFA procedure that would take a decade. An accelerated solution in the form of a direct purchase and the rapid establishment of an assembly line for the Rafale in India therefore seems inevitable.
- For political and industrial reasons, India is likely to buy a small number of 5th generation aircraft, either F-35s or Su-57s. This would appease the advocates of technological modernisation while concentrating the bulk of resources on the Rafale.
- The Tejas Mk2 and the MCAA risk being marginalised because of the cost of these purchases. India would thus find itself in the paradoxical situation of advocating self-sufficiency but continuing to depend on foreign suppliers for its fighter aircraft.
- The delay in modernising the Su-30 MKI reflects the Indian tendency to prioritise new purchases to the detriment of local programmes or upgrades.