MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 32 13.4%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.2%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 1.7%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    239
So the information we want keeps coming in.

“MMRCA should have gone through. It was a blunder not going for it. It would have brought world-class manufacturing facilities to India and skill development. The French were backpaddling on the transfer of technology that HAL could not meet standards. It was a delaying strategy, and India should have dealt with it firmly,” Air Marshal Matheswaran told the EurAsian Times.

Already pointed out how this is a factor in the IAF asking for a tender instead of giving Dassault control via a GTG for MII. They cannot use their own self-selected partner as an excuse in MRFA. And hopefully F414 will give HAL the experience in next gen manufacturing processes.

We can expect a lot of new info over the coming years. "We should have done this better. This new deal is better in this way." And so on.
 
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MRFA is all empty talk unless Air Headquarters receives AoN from DAC. They have not been able to make it happen in the last 5 years, and even if it moves forward, the contract won't happen in the next 5 years.

Dreamers keep dreaming.

AoN will come, ain't a dream anymore. And it's fine if the contract happens 5 years later, I'm expecting a 2033 delivery date. We are fine as long as the first Rafale is inducted by 2035 as long as 6 squadrons can be inducted by 2040.

What's more important now is whether a fresh order of 36 will be placed to plug that time gap. Then the old 2 + these 2 new ones and 2 more via MRFA before 2037 will give us a minimum of what we need, as long as LCA Mk2 also happens in time without serious issues, where all 6 squadrons are expected before 2037. That's how long the new Chinese jets will take to reach IAF borders.

Although I think Mk1A bridging the gap is sufficient, the delays plus China's recent revelations put the IAF at the frontfoot. The IAF has nothing to counter the J-20 even with Mk1A, never mind the new jets, so those puckered up govt purse strings are gonna loosen.

People keep talking about AMCA, but even the govt is not dumb enough to take such a risk over such a long due promise. What the govt wants to know is if more LCA Mk2s can reduce the need for MRFA 'cause that's what the domestic lobby is pushing for, to prevent local production in anyway possible. Fat chance. The ones dreaming are the ones hoping MRFA doesn't happen.
 
AoN will come, ain't a dream anymore. And it's fine if the contract happens 5 years later, I'm expecting a 2033 delivery date. We are fine as long as the first Rafale is inducted by 2035 as long as 6 squadrons can be inducted by 2040.
Anymore? It's still a dream. You keep shifting the goalposts every year as if they are just net emission targets.
 
@randomradio, @Parthu, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan

Even those who fly Rafale for their life don't call it stealthy. It's a definitive statement. So it's quite clear that ACT is a no-go against modern AESA radars:

"Goa: Speaking over the reports of Chinese 6th Generation fighter plane, French air wing commander Guillaume Denis of French Navy’s Charles de Gaulle said its only on papers and is a bit of a dream right now. He said, “6th (generation aircraft) is a bit of a dream right now but when it comes to 5th generation under Rafale. Rafale is a subjective topic. Rafale is not stealthy, but it has been built from the very scratch...to be able to do all the missions at the same time, which is one of the features of the 5th-generation aircraft, we are able to upgrade it every two years. Rafale’s Meteor air to air missile is probably one of the best missiles you can find in the world. Right now it (6th generation aircraft) is only on paper.”

Source: 'Bit of a dream right now...', French air wing commander on reports of Chinese 6th generation aircraft
 
Anymore? It's still a dream. You keep shifting the goalposts every year as if they are just net emission targets.

It's about reacting to the enemy based on their developments.

I have to take into account the J-20 and J-35 finishing development, look at how it's deployed and then look at new jets over time as info comes in, and then see how our own inductions and deployment patterns take all that into account. So all of this is still ongoing, which is not the same for established aircraft. For example, India is not China's first priority at the moment. All of their domestic propaganda is aimed towards the US.

In our case, it's about what sort of tech we are gonna get. For example, the version of Rafale that can fight the J-20, J-35, J-36 whatnot will only be ready in 2030. We had initially assumed it will be 2025, but it turned out to be fake. Overall, nothing's changed for us for more than a decade. LCA, MKI, Rafale and AMCA will be our main jets, and a potential 5th import depending on future Chinese capabilities, or not even that.

IAF expects to reach 42 squadrons by 2035 with LCA and MRFA in combination with existing jets. It's a bit unrealistic today, but they probably assumed a 2022 start date. So at 12+ years, now it's 2037.
 
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@randomradio, @Parthu, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan

Even those who fly Rafale for their life don't call it stealthy. It's a definitive statement. So it's quite clear that ACT is a no-go against modern AESA radars:

"Goa: Speaking over the reports of Chinese 6th Generation fighter plane, French air wing commander Guillaume Denis of French Navy’s Charles de Gaulle said its only on papers and is a bit of a dream right now. He said, “6th (generation aircraft) is a bit of a dream right now but when it comes to 5th generation under Rafale. Rafale is a subjective topic. Rafale is not stealthy, but it has been built from the very scratch...to be able to do all the missions at the same time, which is one of the features of the 5th-generation aircraft, we are able to upgrade it every two years. Rafale’s Meteor air to air missile is probably one of the best missiles you can find in the world. Right now it (6th generation aircraft) is only on paper.”

Source: 'Bit of a dream right now...', French air wing commander on reports of Chinese 6th generation aircraft

It sounds like he's diplomatically shilling for the Rafale based on IAF's requirements for a "non-stealthy 4.5th gen airframe" for MRFA, referring to the airframe. But he claims the avionics are operationally relevant against "5th gen," that's where ACT comes from. It was all very generic information.

The journo was more curious about his opinion on the J-36/50 instead. Should have pushed home on that.
 
It sounds like he's diplomatically shilling for the Rafale based on IAF's requirements for a "non-stealthy 4.5th gen airframe" for MRFA, referring to the airframe. But he claims the avionics are operationally relevant against "5th gen," that's where ACT comes from. It was all very generic information.

The journo was more curious about his opinion on the J-36/50 instead. Should have pushed home on that.
SCAF is just a proposal right now and France would never join GCAP/Tempest for prestige/industrial reasons. So from the French Navy's perspective he's right - 6G really is a dream. This might be a good time for us to explore the possibility of joining SCAF or at least participating in a joint design/project definiton study wiith Dassault.
 
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@randomradio, @Parthu, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan

Even those who fly Rafale for their life don't call it stealthy. It's a definitive statement. So it's quite clear that ACT is a no-go against modern AESA radars:

"Goa: Speaking over the reports of Chinese 6th Generation fighter plane, French air wing commander Guillaume Denis of French Navy’s Charles de Gaulle said its only on papers and is a bit of a dream right now. He said, “6th (generation aircraft) is a bit of a dream right now but when it comes to 5th generation under Rafale. Rafale is a subjective topic. Rafale is not stealthy, but it has been built from the very scratch...to be able to do all the missions at the same time, which is one of the features of the 5th-generation aircraft, we are able to upgrade it every two years. Rafale’s Meteor air to air missile is probably one of the best missiles you can find in the world. Right now it (6th generation aircraft) is only on paper.”

Source: 'Bit of a dream right now...', French air wing commander on reports of Chinese 6th generation aircraft

It's pretty common knowledge that Rafale (or any plane that carries stores externally) isn't stealthy in the sense of how you define stealth on 5th gen fighters. Just ask in any discussion space with level-headed aviation experts, even French ones. Even the KF-21 with recessed storage for AAMs isn't strictly considered a stealth aircraft because of that reason - even the Koreans admit it isn't.

Even if you're only up against pre-AESA sensors, spoofing multiple sensors from different angles in the real world is extremely problematic. In the real world, no plane flies solo like in Ace Combat games. A B2 might still fly solo or in highly spaced formations when conducting nuclear strike but fighters certainly won't. Imagine a strike package of 6 Rafales flying in formation, each plane can only send a spoofed signal back in the general direction of a probing radar (cuz these small transmitters don't have the power to inject frequencies into specific transmitters at long range like FCRs or NGJ can*) which means the ACT signal of one aircraft will interfere with the other (which might be carrying a different loadout, therefore has a different signal). An enemy sensor might only be seeing one Rafale by itself, but would be fed with the signatures of 3 others that it isn't even looking at. You end up causing more harm than good.

You can't ask the Rafales to change their formation or the angle they're presenting to a given sensor every time a new sensor comes into view. This is extremely complicated to properly manage without messing up. And that's if we don't even talk about AESAs. This is why ACT is considered an ECM/ESM (self-defence) technique and not some type of stealth-generator. Use ACT to turn a Rafale stealthy is like saying I'll fill all drop-tanks with chaff and poke a hole in them so I'm constantly deploying chaff so no missile can hit me. LOL.

ACT is simply a technique that can momentarily spoof certain active sensors. In today's world where the main FCRs are large AESAs, that would be limited to the seekers of AAM/SAMs. But even that will become difficult as missiles with 60+ TRM AESA seekers will become commonplace in the next decade. Unlike FCRs where the TRMs have to conduct multiple roles, an AAM seeker has only one job: maintain lock on the target no matter what. So they will be tailored with ECCMs of such frequency-agility that it becomes impossible to spoof them with a smaller transmitter with fewer TRMs (meaning less frequency-agility of your own, even if you somehow figure out their algorithm).

1*jmQuAtj0cQe9snNN51dqxw.jpeg


At that point, a lot of current-gen integrated SPJs (including Rafale's emitters) will become obsolete and aircraft that rely on them for self-protection will no longer be considered survivable as frontline fighters unless flying inside the bubble of a podded escort jammer. The key will be to evade detection entirely and obtain look-first/shoot-first so that the problem of dealing with these next-gen AAMs is for the enemy to figure out.

In the event that you do get detected & fired upon by such missiles, it might very well come down to usage of high-power jammers which, instead of trying to lower your specific SNR so you drop below ambient, instead raise the surrounding ambient SNR in your vicinity to such a degree, with spikes all over the place, that the missile won't know which spike to lock on to anymore. This is how traditional jamming is done (except now with a lot more power than what a typical SPJ can muster). It isn't stealthy, but if you get fired upon it means your stealth has already failed so the last-ditch defence becomes worth it.

But, just because it can potentially save you from 1 capable (or just lucky) sensor doesn't mean you expose yourself to a 100 sensors by carrying a pod externally, which would destroy your passive stealth to begin with. Instead you will need to incorporate that level of capability internally...and your plane's electrical output must be high enough to support such a function under its own power. 4th/4.5 gen jets cannot. That's why pods have their own power supply.

Only upcoming 6th gens (and maybe F-35) will have that capacity.

Of course, anyone can take a line that says Rafale avionics will be relevant against 5th gen (which can really mean that it remains able to exploit non-stealth aspect angles like sides, rear of some 5th gen jets or take advantage of opportune moments like when they open weapon bays, or perhaps alluding to IRST detection) out of context to think it can use ACT to fool 5th gens. Except, if it can do that, it would be stealthy - which would contradict what the officer himself said not once but twice.

After all, one only sees what they want to see.

*

The active, electronically scanned array (AESA) developed for long-range, high-accuracy radar also brings radio frequency-injection (data streams of algorithms fired into an enemy antenna) to the battlefield as a weapon. The radar in the F-22 and F-35 can be used for the task in limited frequency bands. But AESA antennas are being redesigned to cover a far greater frequency range and are expected to be a key element of the U.S. Navy’s Next-Generation Jammer, an example of sophisticated electronic attack entering the tactical battlefield.
 
SCAF is just a proposal right now and France would never join GCAP/Tempest for prestige/industrial reasons. So from the French Navy's perspective he's right - 6G really is a dream. This might be a good time for us to explore the possibility of joining SCAF or at least participating in a joint design/project definiton study wiith Dassault.

SCAF is more than a proposal. The demonstator contract was signed in 2022. There is a point of failure after the demonstator, but let's see when that happens. It's going to be after Macron anyway.

SCAF R&D with IAF is practically impossible. It's possible with IN if they are willing to let go of a fully indigenous program of their own.

But I don't think the IAF and IN are interested in dealing with tech denials and lack of IPR even after AMCA.

Always keep the possibility of stopgaps open, but with MRFA we are probably dealing with the last foreign contract in this area in India's history. The future will be fully indigenous.
 
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Interesting report:

It means MKIs will begin phase out in 2045. This will give us the squadron space to buy more LCA Mk2s, MRFA and AMCA.

It was reported a few months ago as well, even a year ago, but it wasn't very clear back then. But now it would mean all MKIs will be phased out by 2060. It's possible not all MKIs will get next gen upgrades, going the Jaguar way.

Possibly 80-100 jets from 2045-50, then 80-100 more by 2055 and the rest by 2060. A pretty normal retirement schedule.

This means not only will LCA Mk2 and MRFA cross 200, AMCA will be the main MKI replacement. And hopefully we will see a modernization of the AMCA too. We can quite literally operate 10-11 squadrons each as initially hoped.
 
The Rafale is not stealthy, it's better than stealthy...
Could you elaborate on it ? I recall you had once described the phenomenon of Active Cancellation the Rafale exercises. Apparently it sniffs around for electronic signals & stores it in its bank if it is something which SPECTRA can't counteract immediately assuming there's a need for such an action.

Post that the team on ground spends time developing a counter to it . If I'm not mistaken you stated the time required for such a counter to be developed takes anywhere between a few weeks to a few months.

I'm really not qualified to know whether it's a computational problem or something else. However if that's the case how does SPECTRA or the Rafale hope to counter AESA radars which changes emissions within several frequencies multiple times in the space of a second ?

Even if it's theoretically possible what happens if it faces something new ? As I pointed out before I'm unaware if it is a computational problem which has a huge power input therefore impossible for the Rafale to manage in the air coz if it takes the length of time you've mentioned on ground then it's a different dimension altogether.
 
Could you elaborate on it ? I recall you had once described the phenomenon of Active Cancellation the Rafale exercises. Apparently it sniffs around for electronic signals & stores it in its bank if it is something which SPECTRA can't counteract immediately assuming there's a need for such an action.

Post that the team on ground spends time developing a counter to it . If I'm not mistaken you stated the time required for such a counter to be developed takes anywhere between a few weeks to a few months.

I'm really not qualified to know whether it's a computational problem or something else. However if that's the case how does SPECTRA or the Rafale hope to counter AESA radars which changes emissions within several frequencies multiple times in the space of a second ?

Even if it's theoretically possible what happens if it faces something new ? As I pointed out before I'm unaware if it is a computational problem which has a huge power input therefore impossible for the Rafale to manage in the air coz if it takes the length of time you've mentioned on ground then it's a different dimension altogether.
I've already given some explanations, and they were very different from what you're reporting. What you report are the explanations of those who don't know the system and who explain it in such a way as to be able to attack it later.
My explanations start here:


But you must have been blocked on the first page by this post:

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/threads/the-rafale-and-what-you-know-about-it.3154/post-234938 :ROFLMAO:

And don't forget to have a look too:

So what makes Spectra special?
Which is a little further on.
 
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Nah, Ignorants, what you said is for ECM. It used to be weeks to months years ago for the plebs. Now it's 24 hours, as of a few years ago. The French and Israelis achieved it long ago though. Next step is real-time using Cognitive EW. ACT is something else entirely.

@Picdelamirand-oil
If ACT needs to be explained to people with no tech background, it has to be dumbed down to its simplest form, using analogies. Most members here don't have the foundational knowledge required to get it via technical explanations.
 
*yawn* at Ignorants.

36+114 is part of my wishlist. I'm not sitting around thinking it's confirmed. Nor am I sitting around praying only 36 are bought, like the PAF is.

That PC-7 argument is accurate. Pilatus is dead. The civilians killed it using nonsensical claims with no proof. And instead of buying 38 more allowing for greater pilot training and then eventually selling it to make way for more HTT-40, we have neither today. The idea was the someone else would buy the trainer for their own purpose as the HTT-40 approaches end of production so the IAF has just 1 basic trainer. Buying 38 more would have been inducted before 2020. And it would take us between 2030-35 to replace the remaining 75+38 PC-7 with more HTT-40s. One aircraft to rule them all. Man, how common sense escapes even apparently sensible people sometimes.

PC-7 has a 30-year life. We would have been able to operate it until MLU and sold it.

But now we have this ridiculous setup of 2 basic trainers. And apparently, I am the one without the engineering experience skills.

It's going to be very difficult to get batches of students into intermediate training after experiencing 2 different aircraft. They may even have to be split into 2 classes for decades. Only problem is Ignorants does not understand such things.

Thankfully we don't have enough fighter jets. Or we wouldn't have had the pilots necessary. :ROFLMAO:

Whoops, Ignorants.

“In February 2015, IAF had assessed that there was a shortage of 486 pilots.”

There was a plan to arrest the decline of pilots but the force could not keep up with it. “Between 2016 to 2021, against the planned initial intake of 222 trainees annually, the initial annual intake ranged between 158 and 204 trainees. Also, the annual intake after wastage ranged between 124 to 167.” As a result, “the shortage of pilots rose from 486 to 596 which was expected to be filled up between January 2021 and January 2030.”

The audit findings about Trainer Aircraft said had stated in March 2013 that action was on hand to procure 296 aircrafts by 2016 and IAF would have sufficient resources to train its pilots till 2036.

But, the report says, “In case of fighter stream, induction of 106 Basic Trainer Aircrafts and 73 Intermediate Jet Trainers, both indigenously being designed and developed by HAL, could not materialise due to delays in clearance from certifying agency and design issues, respectively.”


Whoops.

Not to worry though. Once we get all 106 HTT-40s, we will take care of the shortage by 2040 or even 2050 with IJT delays. Maybe we will have 2 jets per pilot instead by then. Or just shift to unmanned units. We are headed there anyway. Wow, Ignorants, you have thought so far ahead. Why import trainers when we can drone away?
 
SCAF is more than a proposal. The demonstator contract was signed in 2022. There is a point of failure after the demonstator, but let's see when that happens. It's going to be after Macron anyway.

SCAF R&D with IAF is practically impossible. It's possible with IN if they are willing to let go of a fully indigenous program of their own.

But I don't think the IAF and IN are interested in dealing with tech denials and lack of IPR even after AMCA.

Always keep the possibility of stopgaps open, but with MRFA we are probably dealing with the last foreign contract in this area in India's history. The future will be fully indigenous.
It will not. We need MKI replacement, and AMCA is not a true fighter like EFT or Rafale,its more like a strike fighter jet. We need & we must pursue for foreign vendors for fighter jet in future too.
 
SCAF R&D with IAF is practically impossible.
A joint study would help the IAF flesh out requirements for a prospective 6G fighter faster. Even if we don't work together on a fighter, it might spin-off into collaboration on CCA/loyal wingman, next-gen weapons. Joint dev projects between France and India like Maitri (VL-MICA mod) have fizzled out in the past.

But this time France is actively looking for partners as it needs scale to reduce dev costs. India is no Indonesia and we can get a substantial workshare if we play our cards well.

It's possible with IN if they are willing to let go of a fully indigenous program of their own
TEDBF wasn't the IN's first choice but rather a compromise. ADA couldn't promise a 5G carrier based fighter within a reasonable timeframe and the IN settled for what was realistic.


But I don't think the IAF and IN are interested in dealing with tech denials and lack of IPR even after AMCA.

IAF chiefs are on record pushing for international collabs to shorten dev timeframes and scaling production. IPR issues can be hashed out at the G2G level and enforced via sovereign guarantees.