MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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Not really, because the article is refering to ISE costs, but as CAG showed, that what made Rafale actually L2, was the high costs that Dassault required for the production in India.
Not only does it take more man hours to produce Rafale in India, but including the false informations provided by Dassault, that figure needed to be multiplied by 2.7.
So ISE doesn't change the high cost of Rafale, especially since CAG also pointed out, that most of these extra features are already available on most competition fighters.
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And you really believe the figure provided by EADS was accurate? It'd take 84 million man-hours to build a Rafale in India, but only 25 millions to build a Typhoon?
Let's be serious one moment.
So according to you, it takes HAL 25.5 million hours to build Typhoon in India compared to 84.24 million hours to build the same number of Rafale. Do you ever think before you come out with a lot of hysteria?
LA QUESTION DU RAFALE EN INDE
La question du Rafale en Inde - Infoguerre
Translation
THE QUESTION OF THE Rafale IN INDIA
27 March 2019
Soukhoï Su-30 MKI, MIG-29, MIG-27, MIG-21 BISON, Jaguar, Mirage-2000 and soon the Rafale. The Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet is composed of foreign fighter aircraft. Their modernization is therefore subject to geo-economic developments. India is seeking to develop its defence industry with a view to achieving strategic independence. In addition, in the face of a remarkable acceleration in the country's economic growth, new operational missions are being entrusted to the IAF in order to protect the interests of this 5th world power, particularly in its area of influence, which extends from the Persian Gulf to the Straits of Malacca.
In 2007, IAF's operational requirements were therefore the subject of an international call for tenders for 126 fighter aircraft, the majority of which were to be assembled in India. Won by Dassault Aviation in 2012, three years of discussion led the Rafale contract to evolve towards the supply of 36 combat aircraft manufactured in France and ready for use. The official announcement of this order was made by the Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, on 10 April 2015 from the Elysée. The negotiations are concluded with the signing of an intergovernmental agreement on 23 September 2016. A few weeks later, Dassault Aviation announced its choice of partnership with the Indian private group Reliance at the expense of one of the 9 public defence companies Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which was initially positioned at the top of the list. Since then, the Rafale contract has turned into both economic and political controversy
The escalation of media accusations
Whether in the Indian press, on social networks or through local television channels, the Rafale contract is a hot topic fuelled by many developments. The #RafaleDeal or the #RafaleScam massively cover the canvas.
At the helm of the strings that control the spread of information attacks is the political opposition of the current government: the Indian National Congress (INC) chaired by Rahul Gandhi. A smear campaign around the acquisition of the Rafale is launched through media channels. The first charges are against the Prime Minister, who comes from the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). These denunciations are mainly based on N. Modi's influence in the selection process of the private company Reliance. First of all, it highlights a supposed proximity between N. Modi and Anil Ambani, the leader of the Reliance group, who allegedly financed part of the Prime Minister's political campaign. N. Modi, for his part, put pressure on Dassault Aviation in favour of the man he considered his national champion. No tangible evidence is disseminated by the media except for the out-of-context remarks made by Dassault Aviation's Deputy General Manager, Loïk Segalen, during a central works council meeting in May 2017.
Unable to slow down the ongoing negotiations, new attacks targeting this time the French political front are reviving the debate. An interview with François Hollande given to Médiapart followed by a clumsy tweet from the former President of the French Republic was enough to arm the opposition's offensive strategy. Once again, the argument that Reliance was imposed by the Indian Prime Minister is put forward. F. Holland's defensive stance follows revelations about A. Ambani's financing of a film produced by his partner Julie Gayet. The time constraints associated with the resonance of suspicions of conflict of interest influenced F. Holland's decision-making process and led him to take a shortcut between the observation and action phases. The time allowed for a more in-depth analysis of the situation would have made it possible to orientate its strategy differently. Instead of being defused, on the contrary, the opposing attacks have intensified by placing the former president in the spotlight of the French and Indian media.
The offensive strategy of the Indian opposition
The French investigative media Médiapart participated widely in the debate by collaborating with NDTV or the National Herald, part of whose publication rights belong to the Gandhi family, leaders of the INC. The Associated Journals Limited (AJL) group running the National Herald was acquired by R. Gandhi and his mother Sonia Gandhi through their private company Young India Limited. The opposition is seeking to develop its sphere of influence. Médiapart is quoted in a large number of Indian media. Its founder Edwy Plenel also works on Indian channels. Due to its origins, the French media is presented as a reliable source and well placed to denounce the bad practices of French stakeholders.
The opposition's target remains the Modi government. The indirect attacks on its allies in the Rafale contract serve a specific purpose: to destabilize it in preparation for the next elections, which will begin in April 2019. Everything becomes a subject of controversy. However, the massive dissemination of information around the fighter aircraft is driving public opinion out of breath. The relevance of the revelations is undermined by the lack of proven evidence and creates a deep gap between the content and form of the supposed scoops. False information is also relayed and makes their authors less credible. The expulsion of two French journalists announced by the Indian Minister of Defence at a conference in New Delhi, for example, was rejected the day after its publication by Agence France Presse.
Information is a strategic weapon. The good shooter is distinguished by his ability to hit the designated target with a minimum of ammunition. A so-called "grouped" shot is a successful shot that shows some control over the weapon. If the impact points are scattered around the target but never hit it, the shot is not effective. The parties to the Rafale contract allowed the opposition to empty its shipper by adopting a defensive strategy of a piecemeal response. Dassault Aviation has issued several press releases in response to multiple rumours about it. For its part, the Reliance group has decided to sue NDTV for defamation. The NGO Reporters Without Borders has called for the dismissal of this accusation in the name of press freedom by reminding the Indian government of its 138th position out of 180 countries in the 2018 World Press Freedom Index produced by the NGO itself.
The imperatives of Indian power
Beyond the internal political standoff, India's strategic ambitions are international in scope. The development of a solid defence industrial base lays the foundations for its future military power against a heavily equipped China. Offsets, or compensatory investments, negotiated under the terms of the Rafale contract and criticised by the opposition, remain a common practice in major international commercial contracts. They are a means of developing a world-class defence industrial ecosystem. India is thus seeking to reduce its level of dependence in the defence sector by promoting its "Make in India" policy, N. Modi's strategic programme designed to encourage the development of national companies' skills, particularly in the defence sector. Such strategic sectors should not become a political-media battleground. While the Indian Air Force is working on its missions in "flying coffins", its operational needs are falling into the background due to political disputes. National defence and security issues require a long-term vision to be preserved from all sources of personal conflict. The interests of the Nation prevail. The beginning of 2019 shows that the Modi government has been able to stay the course despite this political-media controversy.
La question du Rafale en Inde - Infoguerre
Translation
THE QUESTION OF THE Rafale IN INDIA
27 March 2019
Soukhoï Su-30 MKI, MIG-29, MIG-27, MIG-21 BISON, Jaguar, Mirage-2000 and soon the Rafale. The Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet is composed of foreign fighter aircraft. Their modernization is therefore subject to geo-economic developments. India is seeking to develop its defence industry with a view to achieving strategic independence. In addition, in the face of a remarkable acceleration in the country's economic growth, new operational missions are being entrusted to the IAF in order to protect the interests of this 5th world power, particularly in its area of influence, which extends from the Persian Gulf to the Straits of Malacca.
In 2007, IAF's operational requirements were therefore the subject of an international call for tenders for 126 fighter aircraft, the majority of which were to be assembled in India. Won by Dassault Aviation in 2012, three years of discussion led the Rafale contract to evolve towards the supply of 36 combat aircraft manufactured in France and ready for use. The official announcement of this order was made by the Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, on 10 April 2015 from the Elysée. The negotiations are concluded with the signing of an intergovernmental agreement on 23 September 2016. A few weeks later, Dassault Aviation announced its choice of partnership with the Indian private group Reliance at the expense of one of the 9 public defence companies Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which was initially positioned at the top of the list. Since then, the Rafale contract has turned into both economic and political controversy
The escalation of media accusations
Whether in the Indian press, on social networks or through local television channels, the Rafale contract is a hot topic fuelled by many developments. The #RafaleDeal or the #RafaleScam massively cover the canvas.
At the helm of the strings that control the spread of information attacks is the political opposition of the current government: the Indian National Congress (INC) chaired by Rahul Gandhi. A smear campaign around the acquisition of the Rafale is launched through media channels. The first charges are against the Prime Minister, who comes from the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). These denunciations are mainly based on N. Modi's influence in the selection process of the private company Reliance. First of all, it highlights a supposed proximity between N. Modi and Anil Ambani, the leader of the Reliance group, who allegedly financed part of the Prime Minister's political campaign. N. Modi, for his part, put pressure on Dassault Aviation in favour of the man he considered his national champion. No tangible evidence is disseminated by the media except for the out-of-context remarks made by Dassault Aviation's Deputy General Manager, Loïk Segalen, during a central works council meeting in May 2017.
Unable to slow down the ongoing negotiations, new attacks targeting this time the French political front are reviving the debate. An interview with François Hollande given to Médiapart followed by a clumsy tweet from the former President of the French Republic was enough to arm the opposition's offensive strategy. Once again, the argument that Reliance was imposed by the Indian Prime Minister is put forward. F. Holland's defensive stance follows revelations about A. Ambani's financing of a film produced by his partner Julie Gayet. The time constraints associated with the resonance of suspicions of conflict of interest influenced F. Holland's decision-making process and led him to take a shortcut between the observation and action phases. The time allowed for a more in-depth analysis of the situation would have made it possible to orientate its strategy differently. Instead of being defused, on the contrary, the opposing attacks have intensified by placing the former president in the spotlight of the French and Indian media.
The offensive strategy of the Indian opposition
The French investigative media Médiapart participated widely in the debate by collaborating with NDTV or the National Herald, part of whose publication rights belong to the Gandhi family, leaders of the INC. The Associated Journals Limited (AJL) group running the National Herald was acquired by R. Gandhi and his mother Sonia Gandhi through their private company Young India Limited. The opposition is seeking to develop its sphere of influence. Médiapart is quoted in a large number of Indian media. Its founder Edwy Plenel also works on Indian channels. Due to its origins, the French media is presented as a reliable source and well placed to denounce the bad practices of French stakeholders.
The opposition's target remains the Modi government. The indirect attacks on its allies in the Rafale contract serve a specific purpose: to destabilize it in preparation for the next elections, which will begin in April 2019. Everything becomes a subject of controversy. However, the massive dissemination of information around the fighter aircraft is driving public opinion out of breath. The relevance of the revelations is undermined by the lack of proven evidence and creates a deep gap between the content and form of the supposed scoops. False information is also relayed and makes their authors less credible. The expulsion of two French journalists announced by the Indian Minister of Defence at a conference in New Delhi, for example, was rejected the day after its publication by Agence France Presse.
Information is a strategic weapon. The good shooter is distinguished by his ability to hit the designated target with a minimum of ammunition. A so-called "grouped" shot is a successful shot that shows some control over the weapon. If the impact points are scattered around the target but never hit it, the shot is not effective. The parties to the Rafale contract allowed the opposition to empty its shipper by adopting a defensive strategy of a piecemeal response. Dassault Aviation has issued several press releases in response to multiple rumours about it. For its part, the Reliance group has decided to sue NDTV for defamation. The NGO Reporters Without Borders has called for the dismissal of this accusation in the name of press freedom by reminding the Indian government of its 138th position out of 180 countries in the 2018 World Press Freedom Index produced by the NGO itself.
The imperatives of Indian power
Beyond the internal political standoff, India's strategic ambitions are international in scope. The development of a solid defence industrial base lays the foundations for its future military power against a heavily equipped China. Offsets, or compensatory investments, negotiated under the terms of the Rafale contract and criticised by the opposition, remain a common practice in major international commercial contracts. They are a means of developing a world-class defence industrial ecosystem. India is thus seeking to reduce its level of dependence in the defence sector by promoting its "Make in India" policy, N. Modi's strategic programme designed to encourage the development of national companies' skills, particularly in the defence sector. Such strategic sectors should not become a political-media battleground. While the Indian Air Force is working on its missions in "flying coffins", its operational needs are falling into the background due to political disputes. National defence and security issues require a long-term vision to be preserved from all sources of personal conflict. The interests of the Nation prevail. The beginning of 2019 shows that the Modi government has been able to stay the course despite this political-media controversy.
They probably can't tell the difference between the two. Neither can majority of the media.
These idiots who oppose Rafale must realise that it is perhaps the only aircraft which has demonstrated its capability against S-300 system by breeching it and targeting it. The Chinese Mid range SAMs acquired by Pakistan are a copy of S-200/300. Rafale will be able to defeat them easily in SEAD and clear the path for other strike aircraft. Su-30MKI now has demonstrated capability against AMRAAM and imagine what will happen to PAF once the combination of Su-30MKI and Rafale fly together.
Tough to swallow facts that you can't deny right? That's the difference between official facts and opped reports. So ISE costs doesn't help Rafale either to get cheaper. Btw have you read the CAG report yet? I mean I knew before that Dassault was bad, but damn even I was shocked to see the amount of time they risked the tender from day one. How stupid can they be?
Wrong, SPECTRA has shown it's abilities, as an EWS, to jam and hide Rafales signatures in an exercise environment that included S300, but Rafale has no suitable weaponry for triple digit SEAD. No ARM, no long range PGM, which means it's only option would be Scalp cruise missiles (or ISE upgrades again, to close capability gaps). At the moment, the MKI remains the best option in SEAD for us and even if you look at the European fighters, SEAD is actually a weak point of Rafale!
Coming EF and Gripen E upgrades, look far more promising, with SPEAR 3 possibly AARGM for EF and even more weapon choices for Gripen E (Sweden SDB, possibly AARGM, Brazil with SPICE 250/1000, MAR1). Not to mention, that SEAD is no localised mission, but a capability that we badly need along side both border areas. 36 Rafales in northern bases are not enough for that, which is why we needed an MMRCA Rafale deal and at least SPICE 250.
And another important improvement for EF
And an interesting new pic, from recent Saab seminar slides
And an interesting new pic, from recent Saab seminar slides
Sry my friend, unfair argument. Noone knows how man/hour of Typhoon would have been calculated by HAL - just in case- This calculation hasn't been done afaik, so there is no point in comparing actual costs vs nothing.
Hi, this is my first post in this forum. I have few apprehensions about Rafale. I have read few conflicting reports about rafale not having IRST and two way datalink for meteor missile. Is it true? Will indian specific upgrades expunge these issues? Can any senior member help clearing apprehensions. Pardon my naiveness
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It is true that the later iterations of Rafale bought by the French Air Force (AdlA) did not have an IRST element. The reason why the French chose to remove the IRST (the 'plumbing' for its incorporation is still present but the actual module isn't) is because the Rafale has an additional TV sensor on the nose, which is capable of visually acquiring, tracking & identifying aircraft at upto ranges of 50km by itself. So they thought its okay to remove the IRST to save some acquisition & maintenance cost.
However, the inclusion of IRST is one of the India-Specific Enhancements (ISEs), and all IAF Rafales will have an IRST along with the TV sensor, like how earlier batches of AdlA Rafales did.
IRST on left, TV on right ^^
As of the Meteor-Rafale combo not having a two-way datalink, again it's a case of philosophical difference leading to a different setup. The prevailing thinking among AdlA to the best of my knowledge is that the Meteor will only be able to transmit back any useful information for a very short timeframe after turning on its seeker (only a few seconds before hitting the target), that it wouldn't be practically feasible to put the data to any real use.
The thinking in RAF is different, hence resulting in inclusion of two-way link on Meteor-Typhoon combo.
As far as I know, the IAF did not ask for inclusion of a two-way link and seems happy with the French way of looking at things.
Rafale has a IRST. It is called OSF (from French Optronic Front Sector).
À first model had a visible wave form head and a IR head. On service on first French planes.
À Second model has a visible and near IR head. On service on last French planes.
It is said that a new version, with an Indian brand IR head is on track for Indian planes.
Two way data link Meteor : the French Air force don't find it useful. But who knows if the Indian didn't request it... After all the missile is existing in one and two way data link.
Didn't the second model totally remove the IR head and just have the visible (TV) head?
The Chinese SAMs that Pakistan acquired are a copy of the Buk. It's called HQ-16.
The S-300 copy is called HQ-9, which Pakistan doesn't operate.
The original OSF was an industrial compromise between Thales (TV) and Sagem (IR). The OSF-IT is all by Thales, and the IR part was removed though it has kept the same outer shape and added some ballast to conserve the same mass and aerodynamics. This reduced cost and complexity and allowed to greatly improve the TV part. The dedicated IR part was planned to return for the F4 standard, with the IR seekers from the wingtip MICA missiles being used in the interim; the Rafale's capacity to use its missiles' sensors being an exclusive perk of the aircraft. (It's not possible with all IR missile seekers; it depends on the design of their cooling systems. The MICA allows the aircraft to take care of it while it's on the wing, most other missile types don't and only have a minute or two of cooling operation.)
The Indian standard also sees a return of the dedicated IR sensor.
In that case it is even better as the Buk system does not have the kind of radar complex associated with S-300 system. Buk is just one of the systems inegrated in S-300 complex.