MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

Hi, this is my first post in this forum. I have few apprehensions about Rafale. I have read few conflicting reports about rafale not having IRST and two way datalink for meteor missile. Is it true? Will indian specific upgrades expunge these issues? Can any senior member help clearing apprehensions. Pardon my naiveness

IRST is an option that we will exercise.

The two way datalink will inform the firing platform whether the missile has locked on or if the seeker has decided to change its target to a more important one. This can be an option as well.

The French have opted out of some stuff either due to technological limitations or they cheaped out of it to save money. For example, the older IRST is not as advanced as the Pirate, so the TV was judged enough for their needs. The two way link was an unnecessary expense. And they rejected HMDS because it was too heavy for some manoeuvres and they didn't want to spend more money on it.

 

[randomradio]

In that case it is even better as the Buk system does not have the kind of radar complex associated with S-300 system. Buk is just one of the systems inegrated in S-300 complex.

Yep. More accurately, the Chinese copied the system using the Russian supplied Shtil that was supplied on the Sovermenny class. Not to mention it's a semi-active missile with a 40Km range. The Chinese improved the range to 75Km on HQ-16B and then added an active seeker on HQ-16C. But these are yet to be supplied to Pakistan.

They cannot afford the S-300 class, unless China gifts it to them.

 

[A Person]

And they rejected HMDS because it was too heavy for some manoeuvres and they didn't want to spend more money on it.

Yeah, they chose to wait for miniaturization to progress enough that a lighter HMDS could be done affordably. That point wasn't reached in time for the definition of the F3R standard, but it's been reached since, so it's planned for the F4 standard.

 

[halloweene]

About IRST. I think i posted a while ago a job offer for a chief engineer at Thales for IR channel of OSF, now called OSF-IR.
Former OSF (with IR channel) was exceedingly complex and costly as it was aimed to deliver performances in a much smaller size, hence high costs.
When the new iteration came, AdA did not pick it up as too costly (and maybe not compliant with french RoE). Things have changed since as more and more radar evading aircrafts appear. About Meteor 2 way datalink, similar stuff. Meteor datalink use the same channel as mica datalink, which was one way only. Retex pointed at things they considered as more important, e.g. "Agile Release", not so sexy but makes pilot happy (VSTOL, wouldn't you have been happy to be able to shoot a guided bomb/AASM while during a ring around your target?... Money...

 

[randomradio]

Yeah, they chose to wait for miniaturization to progress enough that a lighter HMDS could be done affordably. That point wasn't reached in time for the definition of the F3R standard, but it's been reached since, so it's planned for the F4 standard.

Has the name of the new helmet been released?

 

[TrueSpirit]

Wrong, SPECTRA has shown it's abilities, as an EWS, to jam and hide Rafales signatures in an exercise environment that included S300

Exactly. Not Rafale. but Spectra.

Spectra, as the name suggests, comes with Super-duper JF-17

What does Spectra have to do with Rafale

 

[vstol Jockey]

About IRST. I think i posted a while ago a job offer for a chief engineer at Thales for IR channel of OSF, now called OSF-IR.
Former OSF (with IR channel) was exceedingly complex and costly as it was aimed to deliver performances in a much smaller size, hence high costs.
When the new iteration came, AdA did not pick it up as too costly (and maybe not compliant with french RoE). Things have changed since as more and more radar evading aircrafts appear. About Meteor 2 way datalink, similar stuff. Meteor datalink use the same channel as mica datalink, which was one way only. Retex pointed at things they considered as more important, e.g. "Agile Release", not so sexy but makes pilot happy (VSTOL, wouldn't you have been happy to be able to shoot a guided bomb/AASM while during a ring around your target?... Money...

Its very rare to Launch BVRAAM at over 4G. This is normally done when you have already been fired at and you are now counter attacking and also taking evasive action.

 

[Amit228]

"The current radar of the Rafale—the RBE2—only has a one-way data link to its long-range air-to-air missile, the Meteor. This is a huge disadvantage that effectively squanders the range advantage of the Meteor. What would happen in combat is that the Rafale will fire a Meteor from a great distance at a target; in the case of fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen, which have a two-way data link to the Meteor, they can immediately break off the attack and retreat to a safe place. The missile then acts as eyes at the back of the proverbial head-allowing the pilot to see his target through the missile’s own radar. This is not the case with the Rafale as it will have to continue trailing the Meteors it fires right up to the point of impact to ensure the target is actually destroyed."

This is the excerpt i picked from Abhijit iyer mitra's article about rafale. It raises fair points about irst, meteor data link and hmd.

IRST is an option that we will exercise.

The two way datalink will inform the firing platform whether the missile has locked on or if the seeker has decided to change its target to a more important one. This can be an option as well.

The French have opted out of some stuff either due to technological limitations or they cheaped out of it to save money. For example, the older IRST is not as advanced as the Pirate, so the TV was judged enough for their needs. The two way link was an unnecessary expense. And they rejected HMDS because it was too heavy for some manoeuvres and they didn't want to spend more money on it.

 

[TrueSpirit]

SEAD is actually a weak point of Rafale!

Wasn't Rafale supposed to be an omni-role aircraft with its vastly superior strike capability supposedly tilting the deal its its favour - after both Rafale & EF passed technical evaluations during MMRCA flight trials ? While EF was at least at par with Rafale in A2A missions.

No ARM, no long range PGM

Bang on. Storm Shadow is a poet's figment of imagination.

Coming EF and Gripen E upgrades, look far more promising, with SPEAR 3 possibly AARGM for EF and even more weapon choices for Gripen E (Sweden SDB, possibly AARGM, Brazil with SPICE 250/1000, MAR1)

Spot-on. Only Gripen, EF are undergoing development. Rafale F4 is just a flight of fancy & it brings no new capabilities over F2 & F3R.
If not for ISE, Rafale is dead-meat against super-duper JF-17.

Don't we are already have this SPICE guidance kits in our inventory. Wasn't it somehow related to recent Balakot Strikes ?

 

[halloweene]

"The current radar of the Rafale—the RBE2—only has a one-way data link to its long-range air-to-air missile, the Meteor. This is a huge disadvantage that effectively squanders the range advantage of the Meteor. What would happen in combat is that the Rafale will fire a Meteor from a great distance at a target; in the case of fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen, which have a two-way data link to the Meteor, they can immediately break off the attack and retreat to a safe place. The missile then acts as eyes at the back of the proverbial head-allowing the pilot to see his target through the missile’s own radar. This is not the case with the Rafale as it will have to continue trailing the Meteors it fires right up to the point of impact to ensure the target is actually destroyed."

This is the excerpt i picked from Abhijit iyer mitra's article about rafale. It raises fair points about irst, meteor data link and hmd.

On the other hand, another Rafale cantake control of Meteor after release... Think about one thing. How long do you think the backup link can send datas? The meteor radar will be up only few seconds (du to electrical power). The only real advantage is damage assessment. Otherwise, certainly a nice shiny toy, but operationla advantae remain to be assessed.

Rafale F4 is just a flight of fancy & it brings no new capabilities over F2 & F3R.

Please inform yourself before shaming yourself. there must be in this very topic an article from combat aircraft that explains a lot about F4. It is kinda a 2.0 Rafale. In the meanwhile, AESA is beig perfected every update on RAfale while not yet operational on Typhoon and SAAB.

 

[Parthu]

Please inform yourself before shaming yourself. there must be in this very topic an article from combat aircraft that explains a lot about F4. It is kinda a 2.0 Rafale. In the meanwhile, AESA is beig perfected every update on RAfale while not yet operational on Typhoon and SAAB.

He's using sarcasm as a weapon against Sancho.

 

[halloweene]

He's using sarcasm as a weapon against Sancho.

My bad. Sometimes i jump into F-16.net. Very dificult to distinguish sarcasm after...

 

[randomradio]

"The current radar of the Rafale—the RBE2—only has a one-way data link to its long-range air-to-air missile, the Meteor. This is a huge disadvantage that effectively squanders the range advantage of the Meteor. What would happen in combat is that the Rafale will fire a Meteor from a great distance at a target; in the case of fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen, which have a two-way data link to the Meteor, they can immediately break off the attack and retreat to a safe place. The missile then acts as eyes at the back of the proverbial head-allowing the pilot to see his target through the missile’s own radar. This is not the case with the Rafale as it will have to continue trailing the Meteors it fires right up to the point of impact to ensure the target is actually destroyed."

This is the excerpt i picked from Abhijit iyer mitra's article about rafale. It raises fair points about irst, meteor data link and hmd.

No truth to what he said.

 

[randomradio]

My bad. Sometimes i jump into F-16.net. Very dificult to distinguish sarcasm after...

Hostile place for you there.

 

[Sancho]

Sry my friend, unfair argument. Noone knows how man/hour of Typhoon would have been calculated by HAL - just in case- This calculation hasn't been done afaik, so there is no point in comparing actual costs vs nothing.

Wrong, because it has nothing to do with calculations by HAL, but with the informations by the OEM!
The CAG report showed, figures that EF Airbus and Dassault provided as part of their proposals and there alone, the EF had a clear advantage, the fact that Dassault made it worse, by giving figures in EUR, made it only worse. So no point to blame HAL again, when it's OEM facts that were compared (which btw also confirmed, that Rafale was cheaper per unit again and in operational costs).

 

[Sancho]

.
However, the inclusion of IRST is one of the India-Specific Enhancements (ISEs), and all IAF Rafales will have an IRST along with the TV sensor, like how earlier batches of AdlA Rafales did.

There is no official confirmation for that and since Dassault is not advertising the Rafale with IRST, it's doubtfull that they have re-started the production of the IRST again. All we know is, that a new IR channel for F4 might be considered, which however comes only by 2026.

 

[Sancho]

À first model had a visible wave form head and a IR head. On service on first French planes.
À Second model has a visible and near IR head. On service on last French planes.

That's not correct, because the TV channel has no search and track capability. It can visually ID targets (close to IR wavelengths), that were found by RBE 2, or RWR, but not independently work as a system to find targets. That's why Dassault is marketing MICA IR seekers as an IRST, which however is just a desperate attempt to counter the fact, that Rafale doesn't have this capability anymore.
And it's a significant disadvantage, because the prime advantage that Rafale had over it's competitors, was that it was designed and developed around passive sensors and passive detection and tracking of targets. Without IRST however, a main part of that capability is gone and it is dependent on RWR, just as any older gen fighter.
The fact that even US fighters are offered today with IRST, shows the significance too, because to detect enemies with RCS that are getting smaller and smaller, without being dependent on active radar, IRST is the most important system.

 

[Sancho]

Things have changed since as more and more radar evading aircrafts appear.?

That only changes something for fighters without IRST.

 

[Sancho]

"This is the excerpt i picked from Abhijit iyer mitra's article about rafale.

Important!!! Please ignore everything he claims about Rafale, he has either no idea what he is talking about, or has vested interest's. His article was full of factual mistakes, to the point, that you have to take vested interests to trash Rafale to account. Interestingly, all that didn't bothered him anymore, when the NDA government made the Rafale deal.

 

[Sancho]

Wasn't Rafale supposed to be an omni-role aircraft with its vastly superior strike capability supposedly tilting the deal its its favour

It certainly was, because strike capability is not just based on a single mission type, but also include weapon capability, A2G radar and avionic capabilities, load and range capabilites, as well as EW. And when you factor all that in, Rafale at least during MMRCA 1.0 was the best fighter, for offensive deep strikes. But that doesn't meant it's perfect in all areas, because every fighter has pros and cons. So to understand A2G capability, you have to look at more factors.
In Libya for example, Rafale was able to detect double digit SAM threats and attack them, while EF reportedly was able to detect and avoid them, but without a suitable weapon, attacks were not possible. The Indian scenario however requires longer range weapons, which makes AASM not useful for SEAD (even if we had ordered it), SPEAR 3 for EF however could change that.

Spot-on. Only Gripen, EF are undergoing development. Rafale F4 is just a flight of fancy & it brings no new capabilities over F2 & F3R.

Are you French? Because that the typical French excuse by ignoring that F3R is the current standard. It's always telling when people have to go to a "planned future" upgrade standard that comes in 7 years only, to hide the shortfalls of the F3R today.

Don't we are already have this SPICE guidance kits in our inventory. Wasn't it somehow related to recent Balakot Strikes ?

Yes we have SPICE 2000, which however is neither a SEAD weapon (low range), nor a useful anti terror weapon (that's why we had to modify the warhead, if reports are true), it's a bunker buster and the only stand off PGM we have so far.