Smestarz....
The man who said up to september 2015 that India will NEVER purchase Rafale.
Leave the men with the good knwowledge, ie IAF pilots and top brass, decide what is good for the indian nation.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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The man who said up to september 2015 that India will NEVER purchase Rafale.
Leave the men with the good knwowledge, ie IAF pilots and top brass, decide what is good for the indian nation.
Because it's so expensive? Agree.
Did I say we will not order Rafale ?
Why don't you understand how indian procurement system work and come up with a coherent argument how Dassault didn't spoil the MMRCA. Rather than mindlessly promoting French and demeaning indian products and institutions.
1) Dassault is not a humanitary company. They have selled their planes all around the world since 70 years. They know how it works, even in India. So the argument "Dassault spoil the MMRCA" is irrecevable.
2) At the MMRCA bargaining time DA has no export customer for the Rafale. DA was in a weak position and India in a stong one. Dassault was ready to accept quite everything, except impossible clause such as giving a warranty (the DA products are worldwide know to be of a high quality standart) without the right to manage the quality or to look to the process used. ANY OTHER FIGHTER MAKER WOULD HAVE REFUSED.
see more here : https://Other Forum.com/threads/rag...continue-with-this-charade.81294/post-1456684
Some extracts :
"Because HAL is not as productive as Dassault, it would have required a greater number of man-hours to assemble one Rafale than Dassault would have. Owing to the higher labour input, a made-in-India Rafale would have cost Rs 68 crores more than one built in France; in much the same way that an Indian-made Su-30MKI costs more than one purchased directly from Russia. The effort would also have required additional funding for machinery imports and personnel training. That would have increased acquisition costs further. "
"The bottom line is that the final deal could never be closed by the UPA government. By the time the BJP-led government came to power in 2014, the deal was completely deadlocked with Dassault refusing to certify key components of the jet which were to be built by the public sector company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unless a series of conditions were met. "
"Significantly for the Indian Air Force, which has faced enormous problems with the reliability of its Sukhoi-30 fighters, the French will guarantee the performance of the Rafale and provide complete logistics support to ensure that 75 per cent of the Rafale fleet will be battle-worthy when required. HAL had wanted the same guarantee for the Rafales from Dassault even if manufactured by HAL!! Dassault rightly refused. How could they guarantee the quality and battle worthiness of aircraft produced by HAL? "
"
The stalemate between the Indian government and Dassault over the supply of 126 Rafale fighter jets, was not so much because of pricing as much as the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL) competence to deliver on quality and timelines. Two reports by the then American ambassador to India Timothy Roemer and teams of specialists from Dassault, raised critical questions about low quality standards at HAL.
Defence Ministry sources said that Dassault, as well as top IAF officers, agreed that quality would have been compromised had HAL been the Indian partner of the French manufacturer. "
"Roemer’s confidential report to the then US administration under President Barack Obama, just before his tenure as ambassador ended in 2011, said in clear terms that HAL was not competent to be a partner of either of the two American companies – Boeing and Lockheed Martin – that were keen to bid for India’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), purely because it did not meet the quality standards the two US giants sought. "
"Based on Dassault’s study of HAL’s Nashik facility the French government conveyed their displeasure over quality control once it was discovered that there were production-related problems over the manufacture of the SU-30s. Dassault’s conclusion was that the company “could not risk its global reputation” by partnering with the HAL, as the latter’s production facilities in Nashik were “in shambles,”according to top IAF sources. "
Honestly i expect an order early 2021, with F4 std in sight. (+ indian widgets)
Early 2021 is a bit too early given the COVID situation. You can expect late 2021, after the monsoon season. This year's dead for most imports.
Also I'm betting on the F3R itself as follow-on, and not the F4. It's difficult to maintain two different configurations of the same jet in the same base. A new configuration also requires negotiations from scratch again. IAF will also need to flight test the new configuration before clearing it. Instead the same configuration as before can be inked very quickly.
I'm sure IAF was informed of the evolutions in the futur standards : F4 is now defined and even later : F5 is already the subjects of R&D phases.
If you watch the 2011 swiss eval, the Rafale is on time for all the improvements promoted by Dassault (it's not the EF2000 case : AESA is not operationnal). So is India.
The road map of the Rafale is strong.
These things are never so simple though. If a signature is expected in 2021, then it won't be based on F4.1 or 4.2 since both configurations are not ready yet. IAF is not going to buy something that they haven't checked themselves, one of the reasons why even FGFA was cancelled.
And it's a problem to have two different configurations of 18 jets each on the same air base.
F3R is more than enough for the next batch of 36. F4.2 can become available for MMRCA or the next tranche of 72 jets on 2 bases. Some tech from 4.1/4.2 can be added in as India-specific enhancements though, like the Rafale-dedicated data link.
F 4.1 is just a software upgrade it will take around one hour to make the upgrade. Your Rafale are certainly able to get F 4.2 hardware without modification (as will be the next french Rafale) so you can test F4.2 on one aircaraft and accept F4.2 upgrade after successful Flight test.
Part of your ISE are also included in F 4.2 like the new IRST to be deliver in 2022 on your Rafale ...
If 4.1 is just a software upgrade, then I hope the contract we signed has the flexibility to allow its incorporation on the full fleet.
But significant hardware upgrades will not likely be possible. For example, each base will end up with 18 aircraft carrying GaAs based radar and EW suite while the other 18 will have GaN based radar and EW suite. IAF will want to avoid that.
The french are able to do that because normally the new standard is able to manage the old hardware (with automatic recognition ), so the hardware is plug and play (like our AESA/PESA antenna) and then the operational aircraft generally use the best hardware when needed.
It's F4.2 or nothing !
F4.1 is only made for older Rafale. The indian ones are among the latests, so F4.2 (full spectrum).
Dassault has a very good record in developpments on time and on spec. And IAF knows that : You purchased F3R before the full release of the standard.
F4.2 is an upgrade of F3R. The french latest birds will be upgrade this way. To avaid a hard decrease in capacity you can improve it 3 by 3. And a F4 will always be able to do what a F3R can : the training of the new capabilities can be made after, smoothly.
What I'm talking about is all bureaucratic. Any change in designation of the aircraft requires renewed negotiations from scratch. And this mainly applies to imports. Flexibility is available only for indigenous systems.
Changing the version will require new negotiations.
Based on what Picdel said, 4.1 is not a hardware reboot, but 4.2 is. At best, what can happen is IAF can go for 36 more F3R and then go for the 4.1 update as part of ISE. But to go for 4.2, MoD will have to restart negotiations.
If you and Picdel are trying to say all the F3R hardware can be replaced with F4.2 hardware on the first 36 just to match up with the next batch of 36, then that's not going to happen. Only enchancements will be acceptable, not full hardware change. We have to wait for many years instead.
significant hardware upgrades are rare on rafal. F4.2 will be the second significant one. And the indian Rafales are already in this standard. But as you should now, they are not yet upgraded with indian specific improvements. That will be the first upgrade of the indian rafales, planed for 2022 if I remember correctly. This upgrade may already have somme commonality with the F4 upgrade, such as the new IRST
IE, first was the F1 standard, wich was already deprecated when ordered, but they were rushed because the french navy was in a hurry to get air defense assets with the F8 Crusader falling to pieces, and the rafale being delayed following the fall of USSR. The first rafale was planned to get operational 7 years earlier, and the first major upgrade was just begining certification whan the order realy had to be placed. so it went whith minimal order to get some air defense on the aircraft carrier charles de gaule planning the necessary upgrade even before receving the first aircraft
Then came the F2 standadrd, and the F4.1 is not a significant upgrade of the F2. I meand, take an brand new F2 in year 2004, park it in a confined shelter for 20 years, get it out, make software upgrade, plug new LRUs for better sensors and computing power, and in a few days of upgrade and mainly testing, you get an F4.1 standard rafale. Everything happens within squadron.
You just need somme minimal mandatory hardware upgrade associated with some but not all sofware upgrades. Then, you can wait for old hardware to break down before you replace it with the new spare hardware. For exemple, in the french air force, the standard F3.2 (I believe it was 3.2, it was after 3.1 and efore 3.5) introduced an AESA radar. But most of the F3-R rafale will still fly with the old PESA antena. On the other hand, since The AESA is not realy usefull for training and OCA missions, but mostly for the aircraft deployed in irak, the AESA get pluged in the nose of the planes which go to war while the older PESA get used for training. The same goes for the IRST. The french air force fly most rafales without, and plug it on the ones that realy need it.
The point is that you can upgrade the rafale to the latest standard without a need for a full overhault. The same way the Qatar bought an F3-R variant with the sniper pod. They could just put a damocles or talios pod on the tarmac, and the plane will be ready to fly (if the appropriate sofware modules didn't get removed)
You should look at the rafale like a computer. A new rafale variant is most often just like making a system updade. the new update may alow the computer to use a new USB keybord with new action keys to increase or decrease the sound volume, wich is a functionality not present on the old keyboard, but you don't necessarily need to upgrade all your keyboards when you make the software upgrade. old keyborad will continue to do the job. And you will replace then only if the functionality is realy needed when needed, or when the okd keybord breaks down.
According to one of my friends, Rafale pilot, this is one of the outstanding change brought by the rafale in the french air force. It is a challenge to adapt to the new flexibility, it needs new ways of management and planning, but it opens new possibilities on the range of fleet capability. For example, at first they ordered too many spares, and ended up with deprecated LRUs which had never been used alongside new more performant spare LRU. Which one to use ? And big data artificial inteligence to finetune this already existing management helper sofware is one of the improvements for F4 standard.
It is a feature much more important than the actual performance such as thrust to weight, maximum Gs or turn rates, in wich the rafale is very good, but for the efficiency of the air force, this adaptability is a key point. A few years ago the french air force qas still exploring how to best make use of it, amazed at the performance it brings compared to the Mirage fleet.
Nowadays, Rafales are built to the F4.2 and beyond, third significant hardware standard. I don't see why india would refuse to benefit from the continuous update of the rafale and freeze it's capability for ne next 2 decade...
IE, first was the F1 standard, wich was already deprecated when ordered, but they were rushed because the french navy was in a hurry to get air defense assets with the F8 Crusader falling to pieces, and the rafale being delayed following the fall of USSR. The first rafale was planned to get operational 7 years earlier, and the first major upgrade was just begining certification whan the order realy had to be placed. so it went whith minimal order to get some air defense on the aircraft carrier charles de gaule planning the necessary upgrade even before receving the first aircraft
Then came the F2 standadrd, and the F4.1 is not a significant upgrade of the F2. I meand, take an brand new F2 in year 2004, park it in a confined shelter for 20 years, get it out, make software upgrade, plug new LRUs for better sensors and computing power, and in a few days of upgrade and mainly testing, you get an F4.1 standard rafale. Everything happens within squadron.
You just need somme minimal mandatory hardware upgrade associated with some but not all sofware upgrades. Then, you can wait for old hardware to break down before you replace it with the new spare hardware. For exemple, in the french air force, the standard F3.2 (I believe it was 3.2, it was after 3.1 and efore 3.5) introduced an AESA radar. But most of the F3-R rafale will still fly with the old PESA antena. On the other hand, since The AESA is not realy usefull for training and OCA missions, but mostly for the aircraft deployed in irak, the AESA get pluged in the nose of the planes which go to war while the older PESA get used for training. The same goes for the IRST. The french air force fly most rafales without, and plug it on the ones that realy need it.
The point is that you can upgrade the rafale to the latest standard without a need for a full overhault. The same way the Qatar bought an F3-R variant with the sniper pod. They could just put a damocles or talios pod on the tarmac, and the plane will be ready to fly (if the appropriate sofware modules didn't get removed)
You should look at the rafale like a computer. A new rafale variant is most often just like making a system updade. the new update may alow the computer to use a new USB keybord with new action keys to increase or decrease the sound volume, wich is a functionality not present on the old keyboard, but you don't necessarily need to upgrade all your keyboards when you make the software upgrade. old keyborad will continue to do the job. And you will replace then only if the functionality is realy needed when needed, or when the okd keybord breaks down.
According to one of my friends, Rafale pilot, this is one of the outstanding change brought by the rafale in the french air force. It is a challenge to adapt to the new flexibility, it needs new ways of management and planning, but it opens new possibilities on the range of fleet capability. For example, at first they ordered too many spares, and ended up with deprecated LRUs which had never been used alongside new more performant spare LRU. Which one to use ? And big data artificial inteligence to finetune this already existing management helper sofware is one of the improvements for F4 standard.
It is a feature much more important than the actual performance such as thrust to weight, maximum Gs or turn rates, in wich the rafale is very good, but for the efficiency of the air force, this adaptability is a key point. A few years ago the french air force qas still exploring how to best make use of it, amazed at the performance it brings compared to the Mirage fleet.
Nowadays, Rafales are built to the F4.2 and beyond, third significant hardware standard. I don't see why india would refuse to benefit from the continuous update of the rafale and freeze it's capability for ne next 2 decade...
Not really.
IRST is different,
PESA vs AESA,
0 vs sat link,
classic helmet vs HCMS.....
Because if you deviate from current procurement standards, the Supreme Court will put the project on hold and CBI will be unleashed on Dassault, MoD and IAF in a wild goose chase.
Some of the enhancements that are missing will be added in as they come in, but the existing hardware won't change unless an upgrade program begins for it. Like the IRST that's introduced in 2022 will stay the same for a decade or more even if a new IRST is introduced in 2028.
If we go for MMRCA 2.0 and sign a contract in 2025, then all 114 jets followed by the options of 57 will be the same configuration as what was finalised in 2025. So even if the Rafale goes through a 4th significant hardware change in, say, 2035, the IAF will miss out on it. Even in 2040, we will have to buy the same configuration that was negotiated back in 2025. This is the bane of our bureaucracy. Zero flexibility. And indigenous industry actually cites this inflexibility as a major weakness of imported stuff.
Any upgrades have to be negotiated from scratch, like the MKI upgrade plan that's going on right now. Which is why the IAF focuses on bringing in new technologies through other programs, like AMCA in the 2030s and whatever comes after AMCA in the 2040s. After the contract for MKIs infused advanced technology in the 2000s, IAF was supposed to get Rafales in the 2010s as the next generation technology infusion, but that failed.
Honestly, i can't belienve that those points weren't negociated already. IAF, DAssault etc. Aren't stupid.
This is not something you can negotiate, since there is no room to allow such negotiation in the first place. The Indian bureacracy doesn't follow logic and common sense, it just follows rule of law, and the law for long term procurement sucks. Any change in configuration and designation requires a new contract. The "Configuration Control Document" cannot change throughout the contract.
One other important clause is all updates during the contract have to come in free of cost.
The problem is long term projects suffer for it, especially when even 'well-planned' projects go haywire. For example, MKI production of 140 jets was suppposed to finish in 2014, but got dragged all the way to 2020 because HAL was incompetent (more like some vendors were incompetent). The same with the T-90s, still being inducted today with technology used 20 years ago, like the Catherine TI.
That's why if F4.2 Rafales are chose for MMRCA 2.0 and production goes on until 2040, then IAF will be inducting 4.2 even in 2040, even if France has released an F6 by then. Unless you provide the upgrades free of cost.
Like how the Israelis provided the AESA radar upgrade for our Jaguars free of cost, but I guess it worked out since the contract was between ELTA and HAL, not GoI, and was direct import. But in license production, since the stuff has to be made under ToT, the actual transfer will become difficult due to slower technology absorption, even if France provides everything for free, thereby delaying the program. So free updates are possible in a direct import situation, not in license production situation, like MMRCA.In simple words, license production for long term projects are a complete failure in India. If we actually bought all 200+ Rafales in just 6 years, at 40-50 jets a year like the Chinese normally do, then it would make sense, but we are too poor to afford that many jets every year.
This is why I personally prefer tranche purchases for long term projects, with emphasis on new negotiations for every tranche, thereby allowing room to introduce new configurations as they come in. And I think the Rafale GTG has some room to introduce a more advanced configuration in the process, since Parrikar also had the same thought, as does Rawat, but I'm not so sure about it, since they are just individuals with little control over bureaucracy. (Recall that GTG did not have options. This gives some hope that a new deal will have to be initiated.) The American FMS is kickass in that respect.
And I don't think any Rafale contract to be signed in 2021 will cover F4.2, since it doesn't make sense for the IAF to go for it in terms of both logistics and training, and the fact that it hasn't been flight tested yet. I am sceptical about a contract in 2021 anyway, since some other projects are more critical and will get higher priority. Maybe 2021 will see the beginning of negotiations for the next batch of Rafales.
The video of F-22 vs Rafale dogfight comments by a pro is ON!
Edit i'm the one who gave it tto the website that uploaded it publicly
Edit i'm the one who gave it tto the website that uploaded it publicly