MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

I makes sense that if we are integrating BNET on mk1a then we should also integrate it on other aircrafts as well then only link can be created between them.But can't drdo SDR be interconnected with BNET?

Yes, that can be done. BNET has been made to be able to communicate with any other system. For example, I may have a Vodafone connection and you may have Airtel, both networks built by different companies, but both can interact almost seamlessly with each other since they are built on standard protocols.

But it won't be as efficient. That's why all these companies bicker amongst themselves when it comes to interconnection, while offering good deals for people communicating within their own network, like free Vodafone to Vodafone calls/sms etc.

Rigt now I don't know how realistic it is for DRDO's SDR to be used on IAF jets, but eventually, we will need all our stuff to be integrated with each other using one common comm system. And I'm talking about everything aircraft, tanks, ships, soldiers, everything. We will likely have to introduce quantum communications by then as well.

For now, IA and IN will use indigenous systems, while IAF will use the Israeli BNET.

 

[RISING SUN]

To answer this, no, IAF has no interest in adding American comms to their jets.

There is no advantage and this will bring in the unnecessary American personnel into IAF bases. The same with the army.

India-US communication pact faces uphill climb
A senior Pentagon official who participated in CISMOA negotiations with India confessed: “When we sat down with the MoD in Delhi and the CISMOA experts explained the draft, even we were taken aback by the intrusiveness. We looked at each other and rolled our eyes [indicating], ‘this is not going to happen’.”

To assess the key hurdles, Business Standard has scrutinised the text of the CISMOA that the Republic of Korea (South Korea, or ROK) Ministry of National Defence (MND) signed with the US DoD on October 27, 2008. That text requires Korea to provide US personnel access to Korean military bases; reserves for US personnel the right to install, maintain and inspect CISMOA-controlled equipment; bans the transfer of CISMOA-controlled equipment to any third party; bans its indigenous production; and stipulates stringent safeguards for securing, storing and accounting for COMSEC (communications security) equipment obtained from the US.

Paragraph V of the agreement requires ROK to pay the full cost of reconfiguring its communication systems to be interoperable with US military systems, and for testing the Korean systems, whenever required.

Paragraph IX of the agreement stipulates: “DoD-provided COMSEC equipment and materials, including keying materials, will be installed and maintained only by authorized US personnel… When authorized by the US, qualified ROK personnel may remove and/or replace US COMSEC equipment previously installed by US personnel.”

Paragraph X mandates that “DoD-provided COMSEC equipment and materials, including keying materials, will not be subject to any cooperative development, co-production, co-assembly or production licensing agreements.”

So any Link 16 for operational use on Rafale requires to provide access of US personnel in Indian bases. During exercises, the Rafale can carry comm pods anyway.

But the same can be done for P-8I and American UCAVs, especially when they make regular visits to these bases to inspect them. Which is why a system like CENTRIXS being available to the P-8I makes sense.

Knowing first hand of some things, well those theories were overblown from their viewpoint and that was the reason exactly why we signed agreement on COMCASA. US is already inside the system from quite some time (well lets just say, long before COMCASA was signed), and that too under official capacity. Don't ask, nobody will share the relevant material here.

 

[randomradio]

Knowing first hand of some things, well those theories were overblown from their viewpoint and that was the reason exactly why we signed agreement on COMCASA. US is already inside the system from quite some time (well lets just say, long before COMCASA was signed), and that too under official capacity. Don't ask, nobody will share the relevant material here.

Their presence within India is extremely muted, not like the presence within their actual allies. Even with COMCASA, it won't too much of a difference since we won't be operating American comm systems on systems where American presence is entirely unnecessary. For example, all along the Pak-China border, American presence will do more harm than good.

But in the SCS, we have extremely heavy American presence, along with their allies, so being able to communicate with the US and allies in that region becomes necessary, especially since we share the same goal.

The EUM and COMCASA are not as intrusive as people suspect. EUM is in fact not a real problem at all. But COMCASA is a problem, not due to its intrusive nature, but that we have no control over the technologies involved at all, absolutely no control. That's why India has its own comm system where the Americans have no control over. That's also why aircraft like Rafale, MKI etc will not carry any American comm system.

Rather aircraft like the P-8I will be able to become the bridge between two different systems. So instead of a US P-8A relaying information straight to a Rafale in the SCS, the P-8A will instead relay it to the P-8I and the P-8I will then use an Indian comm system to relay it to the Rafale. So the Americans will only have control over the comm system that's in the P-8A.

The way I see it, the US forces will find themselves well-integrated with the IN. But there may be minimal interoperability between IA/IAF and the US. That's why SAMs like the S-400 will play no part in the interoperability game.

 

[A Person]

Well it will be ahead of rafale in some fields too. It's thrust will be 200kn vs 150 kn max available for Rafale. It's performance should be in league of typhoon.

Raw thrust isn't that interesting a metric, because it's measured on a static bench at ground level.

You have to consider the thrust as a ratio to the aircraft's characteristics (thrust to drag, thrust to weight) and the thrust varies depending on air pressure, temperature. Aircraft speed is also important -- the higher the bypass ratio, the slowest your maximum speed is, because you get your thrust by moving a large mass of air (relatively slowly) instead of getting it by moving a smaller mass of air faster. That's why an airliner's turbofan can produce a lot more thrust, and in a lot more efficient way, than a fighter's turbojet, but it will never break the sound barrier.

All these factors mean that, despite what bench numbers and fanboys would have you believe, the Rafale has actually better performances than the Typhoon except in the narrow domain of high-altitude, clean profile flight.

 

[Indianhawk]

Raw thrust isn't that interesting a metric, because it's measured on a static bench at ground level.

You have to consider the thrust as a ratio to the aircraft's characteristics (thrust to drag, thrust to weight) and the thrust varies depending on air pressure, temperature. Aircraft speed is also important -- the higher the bypass ratio, the slowest your maximum speed is, because you get your thrust by moving a large mass of air (relatively slowly) instead of getting it by moving a smaller mass of air faster. That's why an airliner's turbofan can produce a lot more thrust, and in a lot more efficient way, than a fighter's turbojet, but it will never break the sound barrier.

All these factors mean that, despite what bench numbers and fanboys would have you believe, the Rafale has actually better performances than the Typhoon except in the narrow domain of high-altitude, clean profile flight.

Refinement of the jet will of course play it's role. Lot of it will depend if orca empty wait is kept under 12 ton .

Even then we are talking of 50kn more max thrust here which is 30% higher than rafale. Eurofighter has only 30kn trust over rafale and a compromised design because of multiple partners not the case with orca.

Even if this 30% more thrust translates to 10% more performance in critical areas it will mean a lot .

 

[vstol Jockey]

There is a big difference between static thrust and installed thruat. Static thrust is the thrust produced by engine at sea level on a test bench. This does not include the forward speed and ram rise due to forward speed, bleed extraction and gearbox loads.
the installed thrust is the thrust of the engine at sea level after taking into consideration intake and air duct airmass distortions, airbleed extraction and gearbox loads.

 

[Abhay rajput]

Their presence within India is extremely muted, not like the presence within their actual allies. Even with COMCASA, it won't too much of a difference since we won't be operating American comm systems on systems where American presence is entirely unnecessary. For example, all along the Pak-China border, American presence will do more harm than good.

But in the SCS, we have extremely heavy American presence, along with their allies, so being able to communicate with the US and allies in that region becomes necessary, especially since we share the same goal.

The EUM and COMCASA are not as intrusive as people suspect. EUM is in fact not a real problem at all. But COMCASA is a problem, not due to its intrusive nature, but that we have no control over the technologies involved at all, absolutely no control. That's why India has its own comm system where the Americans have no control over. That's also why aircraft like Rafale, MKI etc will not carry any American comm system.

Rather aircraft like the P-8I will be able to become the bridge between two different systems. So instead of a US P-8A relaying information straight to a Rafale in the SCS, the P-8A will instead relay it to the P-8I and the P-8I will then use an Indian comm system to relay it to the Rafale. So the Americans will only have control over the comm system that's in the P-8A.

The way I see it, the US forces will find themselves well-integrated with the IN. But there may be minimal interoperability between IA/IAF and the US. That's why SAMs like the S-400 will play no part in the interoperability game.

US contractors are at many India naval/air bases. They are at Tamilnadu, Ghaziabad, Chandigarh, pathanakot .. suprisingly navy only have 1 base with us contractors presence. On top of that USA already had provision inside comcasa To keep tabs on all the equipments of there's. Means they can listen or spy and we will never know about it . And we all know they will. Why do you think they are okay with f18 block 3 or f15 latest models.

 

[randomradio]

US contractors are at many India naval/air bases. They are at Tamilnadu, Ghaziabad, Chandigarh, pathanakot .. suprisingly navy only have 1 base with us contractors presence. On top of that USA already had provision inside comcasa To keep tabs on all the equipments of there's. Means they can listen or spy and we will never know about it . And we all know they will. Why do you think they are okay with f18 block 3 or f15 latest models.

As long as we import, foreign contractors will always be present, so this is something we cannot avoid. But we need to avoid Americans when it comes to strategic systems, especially those that are dispersed all over the place, like fighter jets.

The PLAN is too strong for us to deal with on our own. So when it comes to the navy, we need extensive cooperation with the US for the next two decades, until we start matching the USN and PLAN in size and strength.

After a certain point, the forces, MoD and industry will start rejecting imports. So this is a long term game. For example, our future AWACS will be Indian, our MMAs will also become Indian when the P-8Is come up for replacement. We are already working towards Indianising JSTARS class aircraft, from the earlier plan of importing the requirement from the US. Our satellites are already Indian. And so on.

 

[Abhay rajput]

As long as we import, foreign contractors will always be present, so this is something we cannot avoid. But we need to avoid Americans when it comes to strategic systems, especially those that are dispersed all over the place, like fighter jets.

The PLAN is too strong for us to deal with on our own. So when it comes to the navy, we need extensive cooperation with the US for the next two decades, until we start matching the USN and PLAN in size and strength.

After a certain point, the forces, MoD and industry will start rejecting imports. So this is a long term game. For example, our future AWACS will be Indian, our MMAs will also become Indian when the P-8Is come up for replacement. We are already working towards Indianising JSTARS class aircraft, from the earlier plan of importing the requirement from the US. Our satellites are already Indian. And so on.

Russian don't have presence at our bases. Majority of our equipments is Russians. They are at only few select places not bases like USA. for example they are at Vishakhapatnam shipbuilding facility which is not a base , they are also at some separate repair facility which are not bases itself. I was quite surprised when somebody told me that c17 aircrafts have good serviceability because Americans contractor stay right at hangars but they are not that much problematic as they are always monitored . real problem comes with comcasa , I mean we have simply trusted USA not to Spy/keep tabs on us and the sad part is we can never know if they did or not. Americans are quite smart/tricky when it comes to agreement even with Rafale that's not the case. We simply can't take there words for it. As far as data link is concerned we do have operational data link with p8 albeit it's not as good as USA one's but it's does the job well. The only advantage next p8 will have more secured communication , satellites encryption from us satellites . It's a huge problem it have the capacity to compromise both p8 and ins ships. Both of these things are told by serving officials and you might also have read many comments about retired military officials about that. Make no mistake USA is far from friends , infact India don't really have friends, only friends with benefits. But it doesn't matter now that ship has sailed.
MediaRoom - News Releases/Statements
Interesting article about price
Lastly I do understand about foreign contractors , but they should not be at military bases. Bottom line , also how many foreign contractors we have with mirage/su30/mig29 jpg and soon to come Rafale - the answer is none. We are making the same mistakes Pakistan did. And please don't give Chinese excuse. Did Americans come for help during doklam - No. Moreover Chinese can't fight and win war against us. It will always be a lost battle ..

The Strategic Postures of China and India: A Visual Guide
The only plane that should worry us is j20 but with Rafale it would be a good match. And no they don't have j20 in meaning full numbers as of now and possible future...not to mention that even thai Gripen have fuc**d j10 and j11. We have spent more than 40 million dollars to upgrade m2k . They are pretty good , especially there self protection suite , much better than d29 on mig29upg.

 

[Indianhawk]

The PLAN is too strong for us to deal with on our own. So when it comes to the navy, we need extensive cooperation with the US for the next two decades, until we start matching the USN and PLAN in size and strength.

PLAN is strong but it might take PLAN two decades to be able to build up robust supply chain to sustain a high intensity battle in indian ocean. These two decades are the time for us to catch up in naval strength. Right now air power is where we need urgency.

 

[randomradio]

PLAN is strong but it might take PLAN two decades to be able to build up robust supply chain to sustain a high intensity battle in indian ocean. These two decades are the time for us to catch up in naval strength.

Two decades, maybe not. In about 5 years, they will have gained a lot of experience operating carriers. By 2025, they will have 3 carriers, which will allow them to have 1 carrier out at sea at anytime.

By 2030, they should be able to operate a minimum of 5 CBGs, possibly 6. During tensions with India, they should easily be able to bring in 2 CBGs of those 5-6 into the IOR.

By 2035, they could have as many as 7 or 8, which means they can easily maintain 1 CBG in the IOR on a 24/7 basis.

This is not counting their plans to deploy smaller assault ships that can carry STOVL or VSTOL fighter jets.

Right now air power is where we need urgency.

IN most definitely need 20-40 PAK FAs with AWACS-India in the Islands.

 

[Indianhawk]

Two decades, maybe not. In about 5 years, they will have gained a lot of experience operating carriers. By 2025, they will have 3 carriers, which will allow them to have 1 carrier out at sea at anytime.

They are building carriers fast but airwing is not upto task . J15 keeps crashing. They will need a new carrier jet before Venturing into actual threats . It seems Russia has given up on su33 itself.

Even then my point was not just carries but supply lines and bases in Indian ocean. And not just peacetime Goodwill bases but actual bases from which they can refuel , re arm to fight against India.
It is one thing to have peace time dock at hambantota it's another to stop there when fighting India . US can operate globally because it has naval bases in countries which it has security treaties with. China have to replicate that success which is not only very difficult but also very time consuming.

Like I said in some other post. Warfare is logistics. And china will have to build all that from grounds up and they don't have many friends around Indian ocean. That's why I said it will take two decades before they can challange us in Indian ocean.

Even then we will have HomePort advantage just like China has today against USA in South China Sea.

 

[randomradio]

They are building carriers fast but airwing is not upto task . J15 keeps crashing. They will need a new carrier jet before Venturing into actual threats . It seems Russia has given up on su33 itself.

Even then my point was not just carries but supply lines and bases in Indian ocean. And not just peacetime Goodwill bases but actual bases from which they can refuel , re arm to fight against India.
It is one thing to have peace time dock at hambantota it's another to stop there when fighting India . US can operate globally because it has naval bases in countries which it has security treaties with. China have to replicate that success which is not only very difficult but also very time consuming.

Like I said in some other post. Warfare is logistics. And china will have to build all that from grounds up and they don't have many friends around Indian ocean. That's why I said it will take two decades before they can challange us in Indian ocean.

Even then we will have HomePort advantage just like China has today against USA in South China Sea.

The jet won't be a problem for them post 2025. Also, the Chinese have access to bases in Djibouti and Gwadar.

Anyway, a supply ship or two can supply all the fuel needed for a CBG to operate in the IOR, while restocking at Djibouti or Gwadar. Their two new supply ships are as heavy as our two carriers. Some other African countries will also follow suit, there's Kenya, Tanzania, Angola and Ghana etc. Then there's Venezeula. With just Djibouti alone, they have enough to maintain significant presence in the IOR.

And there's no saying when they will start dropping nuclear-powered carriers and destroyers in the water.

 

[Lolwa]

The jet won't be a problem for them post 2025. Also, the Chinese have access to bases in Djibouti and Gwadar.

Anyway, a supply ship or two can supply all the fuel needed for a CBG to operate in the IOR, while restocking at Djibouti or Gwadar. Their two new supply ships are as heavy as our two carriers. Some other African countries will also follow suit, there's Kenya, Tanzania, Angola and Ghana etc. Then there's Venezeula. With just Djibouti alone, they have enough to maintain significant presence in the IOR.

And there's no saying when they will start dropping nuclear-powered carriers and destroyers in the water.

At this stage they will only have a single carrier task force. Which we will be able to handle easily. Unlike us the Chinese are way too invested in South China Sea and atleast two carriers are meant to be operated their . One for the Japanese front the other handling all the other Indochina nations. The problems is laoning is trash. It is being used by them similar to how we have been using chakra and arihant for nuclear sub training. The difference is the Chinese still don't have that much experience in operating aircraft carrier and as far as I have read are incapable of night time operations using their ac's. But knowing the Chinese they will cover up pretty fast after their Shandong gets inducted. The Chinese ac fleet might be surpass us in training and tactics in the next 7-10 years. Right now it's better if we focus on getting more ssk's and asw ships/capability. We can still delay the third carrier it realistically won't put us in a disadvantageous position. We are in similar situation to how USSR was in the cold war militarily. That is that similar to U.S they have excess of offensive platforms and have a bigger industrial capacity to us. So it's better if we focus on designing standoff systems and offensive-defense capabilities. Our air defense is still lacking as well as our asw and anti ship capability. The thing is unlike for Pakistan we can't do air raids and invasion in Chinkiland. So better to focus on area denial capability which can be used offensively against both the porks and chinkis. We are blindly following the Americans I feel in terms of our naval doctrine

 

[Tatvamasi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245849556555837441

 

[A Person]

Yep, the contract says "product(ion of eight F-16 by LM Aeronautics", no more no less. Engines are purchased separately, weapons, pods, and other stores are not included either, and neither are simulators, maintenance tools, or spare parts.

 

[Aniruddha]

Yep, the contract says "product(ion of eight F-16 by LM Aeronautics", no more no less. Engines are purchased separately, weapons, pods, and other stores are not included either, and neither are simulators, maintenance tools, or spare parts.

This is the first time I have heard aircraft being delivered to a country without any engines. Are they looking at different engine options for their F-16 if they exist??

 

[randomradio]

This is being misrepresented. Bulgaria signed up with the US govt, and the USG signs individual contracts with all the main contractors. This is how FMS works.

The estimated cost is $1.673B according to DSCA release.
Bulgaria – F-16C/D Block 70/72 Aircraft with Support | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

And this price includes everything, including weapons and simulators. Look up everything they have ordered in the link. That $512M contract is only for LM's deliverables.

 

[sid4587]

th

Two decades, maybe not. In about 5 years, they will have gained a lot of experience operating carriers. By 2025, they will have 3 carriers, which will allow them to have 1 carrier out at sea at anytime.

By 2030, they should be able to operate a minimum of 5 CBGs, possibly 6. During tensions with India, they should easily be able to bring in 2 CBGs of those 5-6 into the IOR.

By 2035, they could have as many as 7 or 8, which means they can easily maintain 1 CBG in the IOR on a 24/7 basis.

This is not counting their plans to deploy smaller assault ships that can carry STOVL or VSTOL fighter jets.



IN most definitely need 20-40 PAK FAs with AWACS-India in the Islands.

then why not one more battery of s400 also on the island

 

[randomradio]

th
then why not one more battery of s400 also on the island

S-400 is pointless there. We will only need quick reaction SAMs, like MRSAM and SPYDER-SR/MR or similar.

But Phase II BMD will have to be deployed.