MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Picdelamirand-oil]

There is a switch "Stores A/A, ST1 ST2". If you are on AA up to 9G can be raised up to a elastic stop and if you pass the elastic stop, up to 11G can be raised to a fixed stop. On ST1 or ST2, up to 5.5 G can be raised up to the elastic stop and on ST1 up to 7.5 G up to the fixed stop.

I made small mistakes: The joystick of the Rafale has a translation of 1cm on each axis in elastic stop. In addition it has a mechanical stop on the rear that allows it to pass 1.4cm and therefore to pull 2.5G more in AA configuration, and 1.5G in A/S configuration.
So the limit in AA configuration is 9G at elastic stop and 11.5 G at fixed stop. This limit is not to protect the Rafale but the pilot, the Rafale could go further! And in ST1 and ST2 configuration To pass from 1cm to 1.4 cm add 1.5 G and then the limit for both is 7 G.

 

[halloweene]

At around 15.42, there is a situation in which the Rafale is chasing F-22 and F-22 is high with about 50* turn compared to Rafale.
View attachment 15859
This was the time when F-22 should have continued the turn and used its TVC with roll to turn into Rafale and give it a headon cross. That would have opened the combat once again with zero advantage to either. Just like F-22, we too were constrained to use TVC only for vertical envelope. But we could roll and use it for turn also. We never got shot down by M2K of IAF in IN but we could never kill them also. We were always trying to save ourselves and make a fool of them using VIFFing.
I will love to hear what French Fighter pilots have to say to this 55 yr old ex fighter pilot.

Generally speaking he agreed, but has to tell things differently on youtube... public relations. Belive me, he already generated quite a hate by his commments.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Generally speaking he agreed, but has to tell things differently on youtube... public relations. Belive me, he already generated quite a hate by his commments.

I do understand the situation.

 

[_Anonymous_]

IAF looking for 114 multirole fighters, 100 AMCA, over 200 LCA Tejas, confirms Air Force Chief ACM RKS Bhadauria

In future, the Indian Air Force is planning to acquire 450 fighter aircraft for deployment on the northern and western frontiers of the country, Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria said on Monday.

zeenews.india.com

 

[_Anonymous_]

Indian Air Force restructures $17 billion fighter jet program

The Indian Air Force is overhauling its plan to induct 114 medium-weight multirole fighters, with a senior service official saying the aircraft will be built in India with significant foreign technology transfer and no foreign procurement.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Hydra]

I do understand the situation.

Is rafale is the front runner in mmrca? Or any chance for F15EX?

 

[halloweene]

F15 is not a medium size fighter. It is huge.

 

[randomradio]

higher TRM count due to superior US packaging technology + higher power available to F 16 give it's AESA an edge over Elta 2052 AESA.

None of that's known yet. The American radar for the F-16 isn't good as compared to the options available to us.

AIM 120D is no way inferior to Derby-ER but will it be available to Pakistan is a different matter all together.

Aim-120D is outdated compared to Derby-ER. Not even in the same class anymore.

BLK 52 clean RCS is between 1.2 and 1.5m2 no way mk1A RCS is 10 to 15 time smaller....with weapons it will be even more. RCS for 4th generation fighter jet is a oxymoron.

Even the prototypes of LCA Mk1 have RCS 3-4 times smaller than the F-16 B52. Mk1A will see more reductions in terms of RCS and drag compared to Mk1. Compared to the older models of the F-16, the LCA Mk1A's RCS should be at least 50 times smaller, if not more.

SU -57 is Inferior to F-35 and have same RCS of that of latest F-18 BLK 3. It's not a true VLO aircraft like F 35 not even close.

Fake news. You got all that from Western and Indian propaganda outlets.

F 35 is the best option for India if US offer it.... nothing come close period not even rafale.

The F-35 brings in American personnel into our most important bases. We don't want that where our air force and army mainly operate. It's only feasible if all the avionics are replaced with Indian avionics and comm systems. But that's far too expensive and unrealistic and pointless, since we can do that on a better airframe all by ourselves, like AMCA.

So the only area where the F-35 can be operated is in case we build a few AAS with American help and put some F-35Bs out to sea. But this is unlikely to happen either since we do not have immediate plans of operating a large marine force.

So, no American fighter jets for us. Too many strings attached for the new ones and too hopeless are the old ones.

 

[jk007]

The F-35 brings in American personnel into our most important bases. We don't want that where our air force and army mainly operate. It's only feasible if all the avionics are replaced with Indian avionics and comm systems. But that's far too expensive and unrealistic and pointless, since we can do that on a better airframe all by ourselves, like AMCA.

So the only area where the F-35 can be operated is in case we build a few AAS with American help and put some F-35Bs out to sea. But this is unlikely to happen either since we do not have immediate plans of operating a large marine force.

So, no American fighter jets for us. Too many strings attached for the new ones and too hopeless are the old ones.

Given the way China is behaving, despite India accomodating them [trade surplus etc], I believe India does not have any option other than getting closer with USA. USA will be the only country that can help India [by replenishing weapons etc] incase of a war with China. So, India will purchase F-35. It is just a matter of time.

I do not think French will give their Rafales, if India loose many aircraft in a war with China. Only USA will be able to do that.

I believe the latest antics of China are foolish [not sure what they got out of it]. For sure, they have lost 5G market in India.

 

[randomradio]

Given the way China is behaving, despite India accomodating them [trade surplus etc], I believe India does not have any option other than getting closer with USA. USA will be the only country that can help India [by replenishing weapons etc] incase of a war with China. So, India will purchase F-35. It is just a matter of time.

I do not think French will give their Rafales, if India loose many aircraft in a war with China. Only USA will be able to do that.

The US won't do that either. Rather they will talk about interfering in the war themselves.

The issues with the F-35 are quite a lot. It's not suitable for use over the Himalayas due to its low TWR. Any aircraft loses a huge chunk of its thrust over mountains. And the F-35 is barely good enough for use over our plains, let alone the mountains. Then there's an issue with weapons integration. We can only import the F-35's weapons from the US, they won't allow the integration of our weapons on it. At best, they will allow the integration of European weapons. At worst, not even that. And this is not even considering all the logistics and maintenance strings attached. They definitely won't allow the production of the jet in India anyway. So at best, even if we go for it, it will be a silver bullet force.

The Israeli model would work best for us, but even that's with a lot of unnecessary strings attached, including adding another country to work with alongside the original F-35 partners.

When it comes to imports, our only realistic option for a next gen jet in the next 5 years is Russia. But even with the Russians, we are facing diplomatic and political issues to the point where buying an entirely new jet from them is slowly becoming less and less of an option. And the Su-57 is most definitely a superior option to the F-35 once the latest version with the new engine becomes available.

In the long run, imports will no longer be an option. After MMRCA, we may see nothing more than silver bullet additions to the force, maybe not even that.

What will be the rcs of tejas with AAMs on it

Maybe after 50 years or so.

Or you could join the IAF as a fighter pilot.

 

[Quicksilver]

No matter how much you upgrade Tejas with GaN or new type of antenna....it will all come down to power in the end and F 16 will win hand down there.

this is not correct. an optimized power utilization can beat a heavy powered but underutilized platform.

Also, why do people here forget, when its war/skirmish, it wont be one LCA vs one f-16. it will be a whole host of infrastructure, including multiple types of aircraft, sensors etc.

 

[randomradio]

Also, why do people here forget, when its war/skirmish, it wont be one LCA vs one f-16. it will be a whole host of infrastructure, including multiple types of aircraft, sensors etc.

This is the main point. Once the S-400 comes into play, all the support aircraft of PAF will have to operate at least 300+Km away from the SAM. This range is so high that even AWACS won't be able to pick up aircraft like the Mk1A and Rafale.

 

[Nikhil]

Fake news. You got all that from Western and Indian propaganda outlets.

What fake news? Sukhoi own paten say it's RCS is between 0.1 and 1 sq mt and you call it fake?

The technical result, the achievement of which the invention is directed, is to reduce the magnitude of the aircraft radar visibility to an average value of the order of 0.1–1 m 2 .
Sukhoi Su-57 Patent - RCS Reduction

And the Su-57 is most definitely a superior option to the F-35 once the latest version with the new engine becomes available

No it's not a superior option... it's an inferior jet compared to F-35.
F 35 is a true VLO fighter jet. F-35 uses a CNT base RAM patented by Lockheed Martin which according to Lockheed is capable of absorbing Electro magnetic waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz with Greater effectiveness from L to K band. one of this Patent holder is an Indian by the name of Tushar k Shah.
It's RCS is smaller than that of F 22 which itself has 0.0001 mt ^2 RCS.
Since detection range is proportional to the 4th root of RCS detection range would be 5.6 time less. it's basically game over for SU 57 and I won't even go into radar and sensor quality since it is well known that Russians are generation behind there western counterparts.

 

[Nikhil]

This is the main point. Once the S-400 comes into play, all the support aircraft of PAF will have to operate at least 300+Km away from the SAM. This range is so high that even AWACS won't be able to pick up aircraft like the Mk1A and Rafale.

S 400 effectiveness is a quite a suspect for ranges you are claiming. Swedish military study put it no more than 200 km at best.

 

[vikata]

If you are referring to the Mk1A, then the AESA radar + Derby-ER combo will be extremely difficult to match by Pak. Mk1As are meant for the Pak border. It will surpass the regular MKIs by a significant margin, along with the Mig-29 and M2000. Only the Rafale will be better until the MKI MLU and MWF are delivered. Nothing in PAF inventory will match the Mk1A, neither the JF-17 Block 3 nor the F-16 B52s (will infact become obsolete, along with the rest of the PAF) in terms of BVR combat. So it's good enough for our needs for a very long time.

S 400 effectiveness is a quite a suspect for ranges you are claiming. Swedish military study put it no more than 200 km at best.

Hey pls share your opinion on j10 so that we can read and benefit from your and @randomradio opinion. As it's realistically an option for paf if they will seek to counter rafale, in 5th gen they will most likely license produce j31 under the garb of project azm.

So where does j10 stands in terms of capability vs tejas, I heard it is also severely limited by lack of hardpoint and doesn't offer any excessive advantage.

 

[randomradio]

What fake news? Sukhoi own paten say it's RCS is between 0.1 and 1 sq mt and you call it fake?

And the same people also claim that the F-22's RCS is 0.5m2. What it means is they are calculating RCS in a different way.

No it's not a superior option... it's an inferior jet compared to F-35.
F 35 is a true VLO fighter jet. F-35 uses a CNT base RAM patented by Lockheed Martin which according to Lockheed is capable of absorbing Electro magnetic waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz with Greater effectiveness from L to K band. one of this Patent holder is an Indian by the name of Tushar k Shah.
It's RCS is smaller than that of F 22 which itself has 0.0001 mt ^2 RCS.
Since detection range is proportional to the 4th root of RCS detection range would be 5.6 time less. it's basically game over for SU 57 and I won't even go into radar and sensor quality since it is well known that Russians are generation behind there western counterparts.

Lol. Okay.

You can't discuss this subject without understanding the core concept of how aircraft are used.

More Ambiguous F-35 Remarks by USAF's Gen. Hostage

Gen. Hostage, head of the US Air Force’s Air Combat Command, gained some fame earlier this year when he said that “If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant [as] the F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22.”

The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war. In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed< [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.

the F-35 is not compelling unless it’s there in numbers,” the general says.

“Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.

All reasons as to why the F-35 is practically useless to India. We don't need only stealth, we can't afford the F-35 in numbers, and we do not have all the other assets necessary to protect the F-35, example the F-22.

Even though the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22, kinematics still plays a significantly important part.

As for the Su-57/PAK FA, it has some features that makes is less stealthy than it should be, but that doesn't mean that statement should be used for comparison with other aircraft. It only means the Su-57 can be even better if there is greater emphasis on stealth. However, as the good general above pointed out, stealth isn't as important as all other features combined.

Something that an American admiral pointed out as well:

CNO Greenert: Navy’s Next Fighter Might Not Need Stealth, High Speed - USNI News

WASHINGTON, D.C. – The Navy’s planned next generation fighter will likely rely less on the speed and stealth that has defined the current generation of U.S. tactical aircraft and could feature an unmanned option, the Chief of Naval Operations said on Wednesday. CNO Adm. Jonathan Greenert...

news.usni.org

“You know that stealth maybe overrated,” Greenert said during a keynote at the Office of Naval Research Naval Future Force Science and Technology Expo.
“I don’t want to necessarily say that it’s over but let’s face it, if something moves fast through the air and disrupts molecules in the air and puts out heat – I don’t care how cool the engine can be – it’s going to be detectable.”

Also, as Dhanoa pointed out during Gaganshakti, all these jets are not stealth jets. The only real stealth jets are the B-2 and Dassault Neuron, and other similar jets.

If we use the F-35 against China, it will die. That's also why the Americans are actually working on a new fighter jet under PCA to specifically deal with China. They will use the PCA alongside the LRS-B and want to make it operational in 2030. The F-35 became an outdated design even before it became operational.

S 400 effectiveness is a quite a suspect for ranges you are claiming. Swedish military study put it no more than 200 km at best.

More Western propaganda.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

So, no American fighter jets for us. Too many strings attached for the new ones and too hopeless are the old ones.

US -- China cold war has just.started
And this cold war will be worse than the
Earlier one because China has a huge population and an EXPANSIONIST
AGENDA

It will go on for next 30 years

We will see.a much.more Friendlier and
Accomdative US as compared to the earlier years

If we get our Act together , we can benefit the same way as Japan and South Korea did after 1960 , in terms of Technology and Manufacturing

 

[randomradio]

Hey pls share your opinion on j10 so that we can read and benefit from your and @randomradio opinion. As it's realistically an option for paf if they will seek to counter rafale, in 5th gen they will most likely license produce j31 under the garb of project azm.

So where does j10 stands in terms of capability vs tejas, I heard it is also severely limited by lack of hardpoint and doesn't offer any excessive advantage.

J-10 requires significant amounts of airframe redesign if it wants to act as a high end complement to the JF-17 Block 3 in the PAF. Until that redesign comes in, their JF-17s are more than enough, does pretty much the same as the J-10 at a cheaper cost. Overall, there's little difference between the two.

As for the PLAAF, the fleet is quite large, but most of the tech is outdated in comparison to their overall threat environment. Although the J-10C does somewhat improve on that with an AESA radar and advanced BVR.

 

[randomradio]

US -- China cold war has just.started
And this cold war will be worse than the
Earlier one because China has a huge population and an EXPANSIONIST
AGENDA

It will go on for next 30 years

We will see.a much.more Friendlier and
Accomdative US as compared to the earlier years

If we get our Act together , we can benefit the same way as Japan and South Korea did after 1960 , in terms of Technology and Manufacturing

Japan and S Korea are American lapdogs. If you want India to also become an American lapdog, then that's fine. Even then, the Americans won't treat India the same way as they did Japan and Korea because these countries were occupied by the Americans after wars.

India is also a rising threat to American domination. After a few years, you will see the US also behaving the same way with India as they are with China.

We are on our own. Our best bet is to make secret anti-China alliances with smaller countries, like-minded nations in ASEAN and Europe, like France. The US will start acting against our interests sooner or later.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Japan and S Korea are American lapdogs. If you want India to also become an American lapdog, then that's fine. Even then, the Americans won't treat India the same way as they did Japan and Korea because these countries were occupied by the Americans after wars.

India is also a rising threat to American domination. After a few years, you will see the US also behaving the same way with India as they are with China.

We are on our own. Our best bet is to make secret anti-China alliances with smaller countries, like-minded nations in ASEAN and Europe, like France. The US will start acting against our interests sooner or later.

India will be always lagging behind China because of our internal weaknesses and limitations

China' s growing strength will become
A huge and growing threat to American
Interests leading to A Convergence of US India Japan interests

You still are unable to appreciate
this two front Collusive threat to India

We Need all the help we can , Going forward

You can Call it being a Junior Partner
Not a Lap dog

Because in an alliance you have to
Bring.something to the Table