MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Bon Plan]

Rafale is an excellent fighter no doubt neither China nor Pakistan has any answer to it for foreseeable future. but it's nowhere close to US fighters like F 35 or F 22. If IAF really going for 114 MRCA 2.0 it should buy 2 squadron worth of US fighters. I would prefer F 18 if F 35 is not in offer.

F22, in Air to air, more than probably.
SH18 : latest swiss eval showed it is even inferior to legacy F18, and Rafale during first Swiss eval was vastly better, the best of all the competitors.
F35 : please, don't speak of a plane that only reach a fully political IOC....

Rafale has no weakness. It is very good to excellent in all domain. That's why India purchase it even after the MMRCA1 collapse.

 

[Nikhil]

WRONG.

It's one of the pic of the sole RBE2 AESA never released : the prototyp. JUST READ YOU OWN DOCUMENT : RBE2AA : AA is the prototyp. The serial one is AESA.

End of the story.

After all your point of view is useless for me, I don't need to be convinced.

Serial one is also the same with 838 TRM.

RBE 2 AESA with 1000+ TRM is an internet meme nothing more nothing less.

 

[Bon Plan]

Serial one is also the same with 838 TRM.

View attachment 16398

RBE 2 AESA with 1000+ TRM is an internet meme nothing more nothing less.

Always pics of the RBE2AA, the prototyp.

It's nearly a secret the real antenna, so a noob like you can never found a pic of a last gen RBE2 AESA.

 

[Nikhil]

ARE YOU IDIOT ORE WHAT ?
Always pics of the RBE2AA, the prototyp.

It's nearly a secret the real antenna, so a noob like you can never found a pic of a last gen RBE2 AESA.

There are no secrets my friend. There are only 838 TRM period.

 

[Bon Plan]

There are no secrets my friend. There are only 838 TRM period.

Think all that you want.

Their is only one weakness of the rafale and that is it's underpowered engine

An exemple of how a smaller T/W ratio but a nice wings config is efficient :

Saab Gripen shines in Alaska Red Flag exercise

‘Gripen first participated in Red Flag 2006 with the Gripen A. It was assigned to the red team. It scored 10 kills the first day including a Typhoon. The evaluation was that Gripen capacity needed …

www.globaldefensecorp.com

 

[Sathya]

May USA supplied earlier generation TRM to France ..

With European make they outdid USA TRM.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

There are no secrets my friend. There are only 838 TRM period.

FOX THREE is a publication from Dassault, Thales and SAFRAN And in the n° 11 page 15 there is a declaration by these companies that the AESA Antenna of the RBE2 have more than 1,000 transmitter/receiver modules.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_11.pdf

The Thales AESA will prove ideal for operations with the Meteor, a long-range interception missile now being tested by MBDA. The AESA radar array will be made up of more than 1,000 transmitter/receiver modules so that several can fail with no significant degradation in acuity. It will further contribute to the Rafale’s excellent reliability . The RBE2’s open architecture will facilitate upgrading, and the new AESA array is totally ‘plug and play’, switching from the passive to the active array configuration taking less than two weeks.

It was at the very begining of AESA on Rafale because they said in the same number:

During the last couple of months, French Navy and French Air Forces Rafales have successfully participated in combat operations over Afghanistan

So what would have been the IAF reaction in case this claim was false?

 

[Hydra]

Rafale is an excellent fighter no doubt neither China nor Pakistan has any answer to it for foreseeable future. but it's nowhere close to US fighters like F 35 or F 22. If IAF really going for 114 MRCA 2.0 it should buy 2 squadron worth of US fighters. I would prefer F 18 if F 35 is not in offer.

U think that it is better than f15 EX

 

[Nikhil]

FOX THREE is a publication from Dassault, Thales and SAFRAN And in the n° 11 page 15 there is a declaration by these companies that the AESA Antenna of the RBE2 have more than 1,000 transmitter/receiver modules.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_11.pdf

again with will have. I wonder why you did not quote the whole part ?

.
From 2012, the Rafale’s
current electronic scanning
RBE2 radar will be fitted with
a new generation Active
Electronic Scanning Array
which will offer increased
detection range and better
angular coverage in azimuth.
The Thales AESA will prove
ideal for operations with
the Meteor, a long-range
interception missile now being
tested by MBDA. The AESA
radar array will be made up of
more than 1,000 trans-
mitter/receiver modules so
that several can fail with no
significant degradation in acuity.

and here's the pic of that supposed 1000+ TRM AESA radar which went into the first rafale.

This pic is officially from Thales showing 111th production rafale with RBE 2 AESA.
TRM count is 838 period.

 

[screambowl]

After that Thales presented the RBE2AESA, with european modules... No more need of an increase of the ouptut nor new coolant system : the new radar outclass the requested ranges with the 10kw output power of the beginning.

So they changed the amplification unit of the radar most probably along with parasitic element of the antenna.

and here's the pic of that supposed 1000+ TRM AESA radar which went into the first rafale.

But without changing the amplification module, no matter how the T/R module is numbered range can't increase unless some different element or antenna is used I guess, with same output power.

 

[Nikhil]

But without changing the amplification module, no matter how the T/R module is numbered range can't increase unless some different element or antenna is used I guess, with same output power.

a Radar effectiveness can be gauged by its power aperture product.

Between two AESA radars given everything else is same ( e.g level of TRM or other technology being used )..... the one with higher PAP will have better detection, range and jamming burn through performance.

Since RBE 2 AESA is small with less TRM compared to AN/APG 81 and AN/APG 77.....it will have inferior resolution , LPI characteristics , ECM immunity etc compared to later.
TRM count determines sensitivity, beam steering and finally directivity.

RBE 2 is not a bad radar it's just inferior to American one.

 

[screambowl]

TRM count determines sensitivity, beam steering and finally directivity.

Thats true but the range is determined by power and amplification if I am not wrong, so @Bon Plan said they didn't increase the power as it remained 10kW but the effective range was increased.

Since RBE 2 AESA is small with less TRM compared to AN/APG 81 and AN/APG 77.....it will have inferior resolution , LPI characteristics , ECM immunity etc compared to later.

Indeed

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

a Radar effectiveness can be gauged by its power aperture product.

Between two AESA radars given everything else is same ( e.g level of TRM or other technology being used )..... the one with higher PAP will have better detection, range and jamming burn through performance.

Since RBE 2 AESA is small with less TRM compared to AN/APG 81 and AN/APG 77.....it will have inferior resolution , LPI characteristics , ECM immunity etc compared to later.
TRM count determines sensitivity, beam steering and finally directivity.

RBE 2 is not a bad radar it's just inferior to American one.

Radar performance is much more complex than you say. For example, the unit power of the T/Rs has no reason to be the same and technology has a role to play in this. This is well known when we talk about GaS and compare it to GaN, for example, but even if we stay on the same base material, there can be technological differences. For example heat extraction is often a point that limits the unit power of T/R and Thales is very good at it. The range especially in lock down can be limited by insufficient stability of the signal generating pilot: this is what happens to the Typhoon radar for example. Finally the range can be increased by using a longer pulse whose return can be compressed. So your certainty that the RBE2 AESA is not as good as what the Americans realize comes only from the fact that you neglect features that do not match your convictions.

 

[Hydra]

Radar performance is much more complex than you say. For example, the unit power of the T/Rs has no reason to be the same and technology has a role to play in this. This is well known when we talk about GaS and compare it to GaN, for example, but even if we stay on the same base material, there can be technological differences. For example heat extraction is often a point that limits the unit power of T/R and Thales is very good at it. The range especially in lock down can be limited by insufficient stability of the signal generating pilot: this is what happens to the Typhoon radar for example. Finally the range can be increased by using a longer pulse whose return can be compressed. So your certainty that the RBE2 AESA is not as good as what the Americans realize comes only from the fact that you neglect features that do not match your convictions.

Yankees are the pioneers in fighter base AESA radar, it's simple logic their newest AESA radar on an air superiority fight will be better than Rafale's. Also They have better TRM density, aperture etc

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

again with will have. I wonder why you did not quote the whole part ?

And what does it change that I quoted only a part? I gave a link. I focus on your interest which was the number of T/R.

and here's the pic of that supposed 1000+ TRM AESA radar which went into the first rafale.

View attachment 16400

This pic is officially from Thales showing 111th production rafale with RBE 2 AESA.
TRM count is 838 period.

French DGA said officially that all public picture of RBE2 AESA Antenna was intentionally fake.

 

[Nikhil]

For example heat extraction is often a point that limits the unit power of T/R and Thales is very good at it.

Cool good for Thales what's the point ? are you trying to say Thales is superior to US in this regards ?

. Finally the range can be increased by using a longer pulse whose return can be compressed. So your certainty that the RBE2 AESA is not as good as what the Americans realize comes only from the fact that you neglect features that do not match your convictions

is this also a Thales invention ? do you think other radars can't do this ?

French DGA said officially that all public picture of RBE2 AESA Antenna was intentionally fake.

provide the source, no pic no believing.....until then 838 is the number.

 

[Aurora]

Rafale is an excellent fighter no doubt neither China nor Pakistan has any answer to it for foreseeable future. but it's nowhere close to US fighters like F 35 or F 22. If IAF really going for 114 MRCA 2.0 it should buy 2 squadron worth of US fighters. I would prefer F 18 if F 35 is not in offer.

J11D, J10C, J16 and Chinese Su 35 can beat rafale anyday.

 

[randomradio]

The F-35's radar is twice as big as the Rafale's radar, but has only 300-350 more T/R modules.

The F-16 Block 60's radar is 1.5 times bigger than the Rafale's radar, but has the same number of T/R modules.

That should tell you all you need to know about the current quality of operational American radars compared to Europe.

The F-22's radar is advertised to do 200-240Km against a 1m2 target, which roughly translates to 260-310 Km against a 3m2 target. The Rafale's PESA radar is advertised to do 140Km against a 3m2 target, and the AESA has apparently doubled that range to 280Km against a 3m2 target. Both are 'advertised' figures, which means both radars are basically on par with each other.

The Americans now have the same type of T/R modules as Europe, but none of them are on operational fighters due to costs. The new modules would have taken the F-22's radar range to 400Km class, competing with the new Russian and Chinese radars, but the USAF is willing to wait for a GaN upgrade instead.

So the current F-22's radar demonstrates a similar capability as the much smaller Rafale's AESA, even though the RBE-2AA is 2.5 times smaller than the APG-77. This shows how advanced the Europeans really are. And interestingly, the Rafale and F-22 are due to get a GaN radar upgrade at pretty much the same time, ie, 2025.

 

[Nikhil]

The F-35's radar is twice as big as the Rafale's radar, but has only 300-350 more T/R modules.

Wrong it's only 1.3 time bigger and has double the TRM count....1676 TRM Vs 838 on RBE2 AESA.

The F-16 Block 60's radar is 1.5 times bigger than the Rafale's radar, but has the same number of T/R modules.

No it's not....it's of same size , yet has more TRM.

. The F-22's radar is advertised to do 200-240Km against a 1m2 target, which roughly translates to 260-310 Km against a 3m2 target. The Rafale's PESA radar is advertised to do 140Km against a 3m2 target, and the AESA has apparently doubled that range to 280Km against a 3m2 target. Both are 'advertised' figures, which means both radars are basically on par with each other.

AN/APG 77(v)1 has much higher range than that.

That's roughly 400km for 1m2 target using new GaAs based TRM compared to 200km for RBE 2 AESA against 1m2 target.

. The Americans now have the same type of T/R modules as Europe, but none of them are on operational fighters due to costs. The new modules would have taken the F-22's radar range to 400Km class, competing with the new Russian and Chinese radars, but the USAF is willing to wait for a GaN upgrade instead.

lol AN/APG 77(v)1 is already superior to anything out there. European TRM superiority is a myth and even if they are better law of physics works same for everyone....tiny RBE 2 AESA will never match AN/APG 77(v)1 ever.

.
So the current F-22's radar demonstrates a similar capability as the much smaller Rafale's AESA, even though the RBE-2AA is 2.5 times smaller than the APG-77. This shows how advanced the Europeans really are. And interestingly, the Rafale and F-22 are due to get a GaN radar upgrade at pretty much the same time, ie, 2025.

No... it does not demonstrate similar capability but half of AN/APG 77(v)1 and no it's not 2.5 times smaller either. It's roughly 1.5 times smaller.

U think that it is better than f15 EX

It's good for our need. F 15ex has a bigger RCS compared to Rafale. Despite having inferior radar.... rafale probably will detect F 15 first than the other way around.

 

[randomradio]

Wrong it's only 1.3 time bigger and has double the TRM count....1676 TRM Vs 838 on RBE2 AESA.

No it's not....it's of same size , yet has more TRM.

AN/APG 77(v)1 has much higher range than that.

View attachment 16403

That's roughly 400km for 1m2 target using new GaAs based TRM compared to 200km for RBE 2 AESA against 1m2 target.


lol AN/APG 77(v)1 is already superior to anything out there. European TRM superiority is a myth and even if they are better law of physics works same for everyone....tiny RBE 2 AESA will never match AN/APG 77(v)1 ever.


No... it does not demonstrate similar capability but half of AN/APG 77(v)1 and no it's not 2.5 times smaller either. It's roughly 1.5 times smaller.

It's good for our need. F 15ex has a bigger RCS compared to Rafale. Despite having inferior radar.... rafale probably will detect F 15 first than the other way around.

Yesh, you don't know basic facts and math. Forget replying to me.