MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Sathya]

Money is there or not mmrca is a necessary,the recent Chinese attitude reiterate that requirements. We can see more aggressive China in future too. Yeas even if signnthe mmrca2 deal today,first jet will not come before 2024,I too favouring a gtog deal with french for next lost Rafale as a stop-gap ( I prefer 54)

I would like Tejas mass built..
It s performance in high altitude bases is similar to medium aircraft s..
With large wings.. isn't it custom built for higher altitude?

We haven't placed additional oreders for GE engines..
So it not possible to speed up tejas program in any way.

I doubt Mk1A will be on time..
No deal with HAL or GE has happened yet.

 

[Hydra]

I would like Tejas mass built..
It s performance in high altitude bases is similar to medium aircraft s..
With large wings.. isn't it custom built for higher altitude?

We haven't placed additional oreders for GE engines..
So it not possible to speed up tejas program in any way.

I doubt Mk1A will be on time..
No deal with HAL or GE has happened yet.

Tejas have an inherent problem,size. Due to this we may have to compromise either range or pay load. It's a good replacement for Mig21 for CAP & interceptor. But useless in any offensive action in Tibet, Tibet is a huge land mass & we need to have long reach to destroy Chinese supply chain. So we need both Tejas & Either F15EX/Rafale to deal with Chinese in Tibet.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Even in the current lot of F3R orders,
Last 1 or 2 will be assembled at DRAL,
To give some experience in building.
@randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil

This is still the same plan right?

Yes it was the plan, but these planes will be added to the 36 and will not be delivered to IAF! because a production for a costumer have to follow norms given by the costumer and this one verify during the building that the company follow the norms. So these plane could be to develop new systems and to make tests, they will be the property of DRAL.

 

[Ashwin]

IAF to buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says

Why don't you read actually what he said?. He is clearly talking about 83 LCA orders which are separate from MMRCA requirements.

 

[Kane]

Key highlights regarding fighter procurement (MMRCA 2.0 and Tejas):

• Immediate priority is to sign the deal for 83 MK1As
• Next is working with ADA/DRDO for LCA MK2 for continuity in the LCA program.
• MMRCA 2.0 (MRFA) is a parallel program and is expected to be delayed given the COVID situation. It is a separate requirement and will be taken up through pvt industry.
• MRFA is currently in the planning stage and will take time to reach anywhere close to contract stage. IAF is yet to receive AoN for this.

 

[randomradio]

Even in the current lot of F3R orders,
Last 1 or 2 will be assembled at DRAL,
To give some experience in building.
@randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil

This is still the same plan right?

No. If production of Rafales was to take place in a big way, DRAL would be producing 2 jets on their own, separate from IAF's orders. And these two jets would help build experience. Those 2 jets would be used as prototypes for R&D purposes. I suppose if Rafale-M is also to be produced, then it will become 3 jets. The first 36 will all come from France.

I doubt Mk1A will be on time..
No deal with HAL or GE has happened yet.

Won't be an issue. HAL can't place an order with GE until CCS clears the Mk1A production.

 

[vstol Jockey]

@Picdelamirand-oil, can you please confirm if DDM-NG is a staring sensor or does it have a scan pattern?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

@Picdelamirand-oil, can you please confirm if DDM-NG is a staring sensor or does it have a scan pattern?

DDM-NG is a passive, imaging infrared Missile Warning System using the latest advances in sensor technology and processing algorithms. The imaging system is a staring sensor but perhaps the processing algorithms include a kind of scan pattern.

 

[Bon Plan]

No, asper his last statement Tejas will fill the requirements of mmrca

Tejas is not a medium fighter. It's a light one, and performs as a light fighter.
India need this kind of plane, but it can't do what a medium bird can.
So the need for medium fighter, in less number than light fighter, remains.

It s performance in high altitude bases is similar to medium aircraft s..

maybe, but with small legs, and less load.

 

[Bon Plan]

in order to counter chinese su35 & j20 the F15EX is the best solution. Monstrously powerful & can climb altitude quickly, proven AESA radar, range wide variety of US weapons, better than rafale if you ignore flying cost.

US has nothing on par with Meteor....

We can order extra 36 rafale and end that french connection

What's the problem?
Do you remember Kargil? Do you remember the US ban after nuke tests?
France is a better ally than USA for India.

 

[Hydra]

US has nothing on par with Meteor....

What's the problem?
Do you remember Kargil? Do you remember the US ban after nuke tests?
France is a better ally than USA for India.

If meteor is the best in universe, why french guys are not inducting it in huge numbers? They still preferring their mica.

Any foreign weapons is having that risk factor, and now india is the only option US having against china. And and air superior platform is always better than a medium range multirole fighter in a2a warfare if both having similar EW systems & avionics.

 

[Bon Plan]

If meteor is the best in universe, why french guys are not inducting it in huge numbers? They still preferring their mica.

Any foreign weapons is having that risk factor, and now india is the only option US having against china. And and air superior platform is always better than a medium range multirole fighter in a2a warfare if both having similar EW systems & avionics.

About Meteor
1) for the moment only a first batch of 100 is ordered (end at least partially delivered). Another batch is possible.
2) French air force combat rules request a positiv target recognition, so Meteor is mainly seen, in french forces, as a tanker or awacs killer. It's why the french Rafale only carry 2 Meteor, and not 4 or 6.
3) Range of Meteor match with those of Rafale OSF. OSF used to positively recognize the target before firing.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[Lolwa]

Ho

Do rafale can strike deep inside tibet? I fear its incapable to do. The best way to win war is destroy the supply chain of fighting front of army, i think f15 is the best option to do that. MKI have that deep penetrating capability even better than f15 but definitely lacks F15's superiority. Anyway you are spending money on a new platform, why not invest it wisely on a platform which is capable to destroy PAF & PLAAF, capable to go deep inside tibet.

How exactly is it inferior. The MKI is pretty much on a similar level. It is way more agile fighter which is the main thing. Both the planes can go above mach 2. The only advantage being the aim 120d that the U.S might sell it to us with a exceptions clause. Compared to Su-30 the f15 has a humungous rcs so will be detected further the only advantage being superior ew and more payload capacity which won't really change anything in a dogfight . I really want the f15 but it really adds nothing new to the IAF's arsenal on top of it being expensive. Compared to rafale which is smaller cheaper has superior missiles,superior ew also has pretty much similar levels of a2g capability to the f15ex. The radar is the only weak point of rafale l. The engine of f15 ex could very well be used for the amca but I have doubts. Let's see how it goes though...

 

[Bon Plan]

The radar is the only weak point of rafale

Maybe the 1st gen PESA one.
Not the AESA one. It is fully coherent with the range of the Meteor.

 

[Bon Plan]

About Meteor
1) for the moment only a first batch of 100 is ordered (end at least partially delivered). Another batch is possible.
2) French air force combat rules request a positiv target recognition, so Meteor is mainly seen, in french forces, as a tanker or awacs killer. It's why the french Rafale only carry 2 Meteor, and not 4 or 6.
3) Range of Meteor match with those of Rafale OSF. OSF used to positively recognize the target before firing.

sorry for 3) : It's the range of MICA that match those of OSF. Meteor has a far greater range (from a NEZ of > 60km against highly agile target to.... 150? 200km? for low agile and slow moving target as tanker, awacs...)

 

[Lolwa]

Maybe the 1st gen PESA one.
Not the AESA one. It is fully coherent with the range of the Meteor.

I'm comparing it to the f15ex's radar. It will be logically superior in range and detection to rafale's radar. Of course it's coherent with the range of meteor but rbe2 aesa can't realistically be comparable to apg 82 in range and detection unless French have some super magic shit on it...

 

[rockstarIN]

About Meteor
1) for the moment only a first batch of 100 is ordered (end at least partially delivered). Another batch is possible.
2) French air force combat rules request a positiv target recognition, so Meteor is mainly seen, in french forces, as a tanker or awacs killer. It's why the french Rafale only carry 2 Meteor, and not 4 or 6.
3) Range of Meteor match with those of Rafale OSF. OSF used to positively recognize the target before firing.

2) How will French Air force or even Rafale face a Feb 27 scenario, -low on fuel, facing multipule F-16s, fired upon several ARMRAAMS from a distance and you only have MICAs to counter attack?

 

[Bon Plan]

I'm comparing it to the f15ex's radar. It will be logically superior in range and detection to rafale's radar. Of course it's coherent with the range of meteor but rbe2 aesa can't realistically be comparable to apg 82 in range and detection unless French have some super magic shit on it...

if all is comparable, the higher the antenna is, the greater the range is.
But.....
When US supplied Thales with T/R modules to made our first RBE2 AESA prototyp (called RBE2 AA), the range was X.
When, with the same hardware, Thales used own T/R modules, some years after, the range was 30% to 50% better than X in the same config.

Strange isn't it?

 

[Bon Plan]

2) How will French Air force or even Rafale face a Feb 27 scenario, -low on fuel, facing multipule F-16s, fired upon several ARMRAAMS from a distance and you only have MICAs to counter attack?

I can't answer as I'm not a pilot. I only expess that France rely on MICA and is developping a follow on MICA instead of ordering more Meteor, so it's not without reasons.

I may just imagine than Rafale, with its Spectra suite, is more difficult to track so as to come closer to pak F16 to fire MICA (during BVR trainings against english EF, the english pilots said they were unable to track the Rafale....)

I understand of the 27th feb scenario that no one of the AMRAAM found a target because they were fired outside their effective range.... (ie with a so small pk that it's like rockets at the end of a ballistic trajectory), just to afraid indian pilots. It's a tactic. Costly but efficient.