MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[jk007]

Definitely, most definitely should not buy strategic combat systems from America. They are cancer.

So no fighter jets, tanks/IFVs, warships etc. Nothing where they feel they have some control over how we use their equipment. They have excellent force multipliers, also transports, and we need to stick with those in the meantime, until we can start building our own stuff.



It's already the cheapest rate possible.

Indigenisation is the only way forward for affordable stuff.

a) I really do not know what to make of this. How is USA cancer? What did USA do to India? It is Nehru who has definitely tilted towards USSR despite saying he is non-aligned. Anyway - that is a separate matter.
b) Despite being beaten black & blue in 1962, I see that many Indians have some sort of affinity to Chinese. Indians desperately want to believe that Chinese are benevolent (because they are socialists / communists). For ex: please read article by Ashutosh [former AAP party prominent member] writes in NDTV.com that China is doing all these latest antics to bring India to negotiation table. Read the commentary of Mr. Pravin Shawney in youtube, his initial videos are - China is doing all this, because India did not follow the wuhan guidance in spirit.
c) I see many Indians have natural aversion to USA, but at the first available oppurtunity apply for USA visa [this applies to all immigrants]. I am a naturalized US citizen.....and I see so many of immediate friends [from India] who are socialists / communists but came to USA to enjoy the economic benefits that capitalism offers.....but despite staying in USA for 20+ years are still socialist / communist. They vote for democrats, because democrats does "something" for them. If one believes in socialism / communism, why come to USA in the first place? They could have gone to Cuba etc? I see this behaviour in many Indian-Americans as well as other immigrants (in general) from other countries. All of them do not believe in capitalism, but never want to get out of USA. Much of what Trump says about immigration (immigrants) is Truth.
d) There is no way India will match the manufacturing abilities of China. The labour laws of India are so cumbersome. For ex: In Andhra Pradesh, the incumbent CM has put a rule saying that 80% of all labour in private sector must be "sons / daughters of soil". What if the "sons / daughters of soil" do not have necessary skills? Then the industrialist have to train them and employ them. What if those "sons / daughters of soil" do not work hard? no answers........which industrialist will invest in such environment? Many other states have cumbersome laws too. I know that UP & MP has removed all labour laws for 3 years.....but wait for a different party to win elections next time, everyone of those labour laws will be bought back.
e) For the next few months / years, there will be big anguish [if there is a war], then it is going to be back to square one. HAL will still be lead integrator or whatever and will be extremely inefficient.
f) If India does not align with USA [since USA is cancer], which other country will it work with? France? UK? Japan? You think any of these countries have the economy to fight China?
g) I am very very very dis-appointed that Modi said that China is not in India's land. If so, then what is all this fight for? I had hopes on Modi.....at least he should have the courage to accept. I had such a big hopes on Modi.
h) I do not believe India will match China only via "indigenization". This is a dream being sold for the past 24 years.....for ex: LCA is so cheap, development costs are a fraction of what they cost in developed countries etc etc......we can break-even very fast etc etc.....this is what I read in 1993 or so.....

PS: sorry for deviating from the topic. I know this post does not add any value to this thread, but could not resist.

 

[randomradio]

a) I really do not know what to make of this. How is USA cancer? What did USA do to India? It is Nehru who has definitely tilted towards USSR despite saying he is non-aligned. Anyway - that is a separate matter.

They will start creeping into India's defence sector once they have entered the strategic segment. Once in, they will keep pushing for buying more of their equipment to the point where they will even start interfering with our strategic autonomy, like how they recently did with Taiwan, where they forced them to give up their 66 M2000s in exchange for 66 F-16s. They will most definitely start interfering in our indigenous programs too. For example, they want India to cancel FICV and enter a JV with them and Israel. They also want India to stop buying HAL's helicopters and enter their FVL program. They are extremely cancerous when it comes to the protection and export of their defence sector.

b) Despite being beaten black & blue in 1962, I see that many Indians have some sort of affinity to Chinese. Indians desperately want to believe that Chinese are benevolent (because they are socialists / communists). For ex: please read article by Ashutosh [former AAP party prominent member] writes in NDTV.com that China is doing all these latest antics to bring India to negotiation table. Read the commentary of Mr. Pravin Shawney in youtube, his initial videos are - China is doing all this, because India did not follow the wuhan guidance in spirit.
c) I see many Indians have natural aversion to USA, but at the first available oppurtunity apply for USA visa [this applies to all immigrants]. I am a naturalized US citizen.....and I see so many of immediate friends [from India] who are socialists / communists but came to USA to enjoy the economic benefits that capitalism offers.....but despite staying in USA for 20+ years are still socialist / communist. They vote for democrats, because democrats does "something" for them. If one believes in socialism / communism, why come to USA in the first place? They could have gone to Cuba etc? I see this behaviour in many Indian-Americans as well as other immigrants (in general) from other countries. All of them do not believe in capitalism, but never want to get out of USA. Much of what Trump says about immigration (immigrants) is Truth.

Some people are crazy.

d) There is no way India will match the manufacturing abilities of China. The labour laws of India are so cumbersome. For ex: In Andhra Pradesh, the incumbent CM has put a rule saying that 80% of all labour in private sector must be "sons / daughters of soil". What if the "sons / daughters of soil" do not have necessary skills? Then the industrialist have to train them and employ them. What if those "sons / daughters of soil" do not work hard? no answers........which industrialist will invest in such environment? Many other states have cumbersome laws too. I know that UP & MP has removed all labour laws for 3 years.....but wait for a different party to win elections next time, everyone of those labour laws will be bought back.

Yep. We are not gonna beat China even with new labour laws. The Chinese practically practice slavery and they also cheat through their banks. We can't do either. At best, we can only implement import substitution by raising tariffs.

e) For the next few months / years, there will be big anguish [if there is a war], then it is going to be back to square one. HAL will still be lead integrator or whatever and will be extremely inefficient.

If we go to war, then the privatisation of defence will be that much more faster.

f) If India does not align with USA [since USA is cancer], which other country will it work with? France? UK? Japan? You think any of these countries have the economy to fight China?

We don't have allies. We only have partners with some shared goals.

g) I am very very very dis-appointed that Modi said that China is not in India's land. If so, then what is all this fight for? I had hopes on Modi.....at least he should have the courage to accept. I had such a big hopes on Modi.

He's referring to how China has not crossed into territories that India physically holds. What the Chinese have done is step into areas that were basically no man's land.

h) I do not believe India will match China only via "indigenization". This is a dream being sold for the past 24 years.....for ex: LCA is so cheap, development costs are a fraction of what they cost in developed countries etc etc......we can break-even very fast etc etc.....this is what I read in 1993 or so.....

It's not difficult to match China with indigenous systems. But this takes time, and in the meantime we can import what's necessary, like MMRCA.

The US is cancerous because they do not want their allied countries to gain strategic autonomy when it comes to weapons systems. They will do their best to scuttle every single indigenous program we have, which is why they must not enter our strategic segment. Look at the way they pressured Germany to give up on the Typhoon in exchange for Super Hornets recently. Anyway, the stuff they are offering for our current requirement (F-16, SH, F-15 etc) are all outdated crap anyway. They are neither cutting edge, nor do they meet requirements. Stuff that's good, we have already bought and will buy some more in the near future. Stuff that we actually need, they won't sell to us. So that's that.

 

[jk007]

He's referring to how China has not crossed into territories that India physically holds. What the Chinese have done is step into areas that were basically no man's land.

He should not have made that statement. It is so unfortunate......if he is under lot of stress, then he should have read from a paper [like pranab da always does]........in the age of 24+ hour TV......just mis-statements are not easily forgotten........

I believe - If price difference between F-16 & Rafale is a lot, India will have to buy lot of F-16s to fill squadron gaps.....even a Rafale pilot [youtube] said that he found it difficult to fight an F-16.......

 

[randomradio]

He should not have made that statement. It is so unfortunate......if he is under lot of stress, then he should have read from a paper [like pranab da always does]........in the age of 24+ hour TV......just mis-statements are not easily forgotten........

Nothing wrong with what he said. It's correct.

People haven't understood the actual situation on the ground.

I believe - If price difference between F-16 & Rafale is a lot, India will have to buy lot of F-16s to fill squadron gaps.....even a Rafale pilot [youtube] said that he found it difficult to fight an F-16.......

The two jets fulfill two different requirements. It's not F-16 or Rafale, it's F-16 and Rafale.

More specifically, it's...
a) F-16 or Gripen E or MWF.
b) Rafale or Typhoon or SH or Mig-35 or Su-35 or F-15.

So a and b.

For a, we have already decided on MWF. F-16 or Gripen will come back into contention if MWF fails, but that's unlikely to happen.

For b, the tender will start soon. Gripen and F-16 are merely participating in the tender and they have no chance. The fight is between the jets mentioned in b. So the only viable American contender in b is the SH. The F-15 and Su-35 are also merely participants, and belong to a different class. Basically, F-16, Gripen, Su-35 and F-15 will get filtered out during the technical shortlist merely due to their single engines and MTOWs. They may even get filtered out during the RFP process itself, never mind tech evaluations.

For both a and b, the IAF is looking at 6 squadrons each initially, while the actual requirement is 12 each.

The Rafale pilot was talking about a dogfight.

 

[TARGET]

They will start creeping into India's defence sector once they have entered the strategic segment. Once in, they will keep pushing for buying more of their equipment to the point where they will even start interfering with our strategic autonomy, like how they recently did with Taiwan, where they forced them to give up their 66 M2000s in exchange for 66 F-16s. They will most definitely start interfering in our indigenous programs too. For example, they want India to cancel FICV and enter a JV with them and Israel. They also want India to stop buying HAL's helicopters and enter their FVL program. They are extremely cancerous when it comes to the protection and export of their defence sector.



Some people are crazy.



Yep. We are not gonna beat China even with new labour laws. The Chinese practically practice slavery and they also cheat through their banks. We can't do either. At best, we can only implement import substitution by raising tariffs.



If we go to war, then the privatisation of defence will be that much more faster.



We don't have allies. We only have partners with some shared goals.



He's referring to how China has not crossed into territories that India physically holds. What the Chinese have done is step into areas that were basically no man's land.



It's not difficult to match China with indigenous systems. But this takes time, and in the meantime we can import what's necessary, like MMRCA.

The US is cancerous because they do not want their allied countries to gain strategic autonomy when it comes to weapons systems. They will do their best to scuttle every single indigenous program we have, which is why they must not enter our strategic segment. Look at the way they pressured Germany to give up on the Typhoon in exchange for Super Hornets recently. Anyway, the stuff they are offering for our current requirement (F-16, SH, F-15 etc) are all outdated crap anyway. They are neither cutting edge, nor do they meet requirements. Stuff that's good, we have already bought and will buy some more in the near future. Stuff that we actually need, they won't sell to us. So that's that.

I disagree to the point that Russians are saints and Americans are devils, We have to choose what suits us, US products are very reliable compared to Russian product in terms of quality and testing benchmark also they don't do JV as they don't want to share their tech for the money . Now in this world of politics, we cant be center aligned. If we see in our current inventory American products are already growing in number and it will grow more in the future, so dependency is already there. Now for the cutting edge tech like F35, we need to convince the USA that we will use F35 in the eastern front only (Without S400 with LRSAM) and it's our responsibility how we do the power balance in eastern front ... With Russian tech, I have no positive feelings when we are going to engage in the eastern front.

 

[randomradio]

I disagree to the point that Russians are saints and Americans are devils, We have to choose what suits us, US products are very reliable compared to Russian product in terms of quality and testing benchmark also they don't do JV as they don't want to share their tech for the money . Now in this world of politics, we cant be center aligned. If we see in our current inventory American products are already growing in number and it will grow more in the future, so dependency is already there. Now for the cutting edge tech like F35, we need to convince the USA that we will use F35 in the eastern front only (Without S400 with LRSAM) and it's our responsibility how we do the power balance in eastern front ... With Russian tech, I have no positive feelings when we are going to engage in the eastern front.

I'm not supporting Russian products either. At all. We are buying what suits our needs from any source. Take the example of the VSHORADS and SPAD-GMS. We are going for the Russian VSHORADS, with western companies complaining of showing preference to the Russian missile system, whereas the Russians are complaining about us having chosen a Korean system for SPAD-GMS. In both cases, we cared more about the system than any political alignment, so we are buying what we need. Hell, we are even buying supply ships from Turkey even though the Turks have been creating problems for us in every international forum.

The Russian tech we operate is very good, even against China. For example, the Russian tanks are better for mountains than western designs due to the weight. We are using the IL-76 for tactical and strategic use while we are using C-17s for strategic use. The Russian Ka-226T has been specifically made for our mountain environment, and there's no western equivalent, including HAL's LUH. The S-400 is very suitable for use in mountains as well.

The F-35 is unsuitable for operations in India, definitely not good for our north and east, although it's perfectly fine in Guj/Rajasthan and Punjab, and the IOR. Anyway, the IAF has shown no interest in operating it anyway. The US has given plenty of presentations. The S-400 can contribute way more than the F-35 ever can in our operational environment. We need something like the AMCA instead. More specifically, the AMCA+IUSAV combo is much more suitable for our needs. The F-35's performance would have been borderline okay if it was competing with the Su-30MKI 20 years ago, but not now. At the high end, we need very high performance jets, with TWR exceeding 1.4 with 50% fuel. So our only realistic next gen option that we can order in the next few years is the Su-57, nothing else.

The Americans are worse than the Russians when it comes to JVs.

 

[TARGET]

I'm not supporting Russian products either. At all. We are buying what suits our needs from any source. Take the example of the VSHORADS and SPAD-GMS. We are going for the Russian VSHORADS, with western companies complaining of showing preference to the Russian missile system, whereas the Russians are complaining about us having chosen a Korean system for SPAD-GMS. In both cases, we cared more about the system than any political alignment, so we are buying what we need. Hell, we are even buying supply ships from Turkey even though the Turks have been creating problems for us in every international forum.

The Russian tech we operate is very good, even against China. For example, the Russian tanks are better for mountains than western designs due to the weight. We are using the IL-76 for tactical and strategic use while we are using C-17s for strategic use. The Russian Ka-226T has been specifically made for our mountain environment, and there's no western equivalent, including HAL's LUH. The S-400 is very suitable for use in mountains as well.

The F-35 is unsuitable for operations in India, definitely not good for our north and east, although it's perfectly fine in Guj/Rajasthan and Punjab, and the IOR. Anyway, the IAF has shown no interest in operating it anyway. The US has given plenty of presentations. The S-400 can contribute way more than the F-35 ever can in our operational environment. We need something like the AMCA instead. More specifically, the AMCA+IUSAV combo is much more suitable for our needs. The F-35's performance would have been borderline okay if it was competing with the Su-30MKI 20 years ago, but not now. At the high end, we need very high performance jets, with TWR exceeding 1.4 with 50% fuel. So our only realistic next gen option that we can order in the next few years is the Su-57, nothing else.

The Americans are worse than the Russians when it comes to JVs.

My only concern with Russian tech it’s not par with Chinese because

I'm not supporting Russian products either. At all. We are buying what suits our needs from any source. Take the example of the VSHORADS and SPAD-GMS. We are going for the Russian VSHORADS, with western companies complaining of showing preference to the Russian missile system, whereas the Russians are complaining about us having chosen a Korean system for SPAD-GMS. In both cases, we cared more about the system than any political alignment, so we are buying what we need. Hell, we are even buying supply ships from Turkey even though the Turks have been creating problems for us in every international forum.

The Russian tech we operate is very good, even against China. For example, the Russian tanks are better for mountains than western designs due to the weight. We are using the IL-76 for tactical and strategic use while we are using C-17s for strategic use. The Russian Ka-226T has been specifically made for our mountain environment, and there's no western equivalent, including HAL's LUH. The S-400 is very suitable for use in mountains as well.

The F-35 is unsuitable for operations in India, definitely not good for our north and east, although it's perfectly fine in Guj/Rajasthan and Punjab, and the IOR. Anyway, the IAF has shown no interest in operating it anyway. The US has given plenty of presentations. The S-400 can contribute way more than the F-35 ever can in our operational environment. We need something like the AMCA instead. More specifically, the AMCA+IUSAV combo is much more suitable for our needs. The F-35's performance would have been borderline okay if it was competing with the Su-30MKI 20 years ago, but not now. At the high end, we need very high performance jets, with TWR exceeding 1.4 with 50% fuel. So our only realistic next gen option that we can order in the next few years is the Su-57, nothing else.

The Americans are worse than the Russians when it comes to JVs.

Agree, the Russian systems S400, Brahmos,.. are good but when we think about countering Chinese. we need American systems as it's designed philosophies are quite different from a Chinese design, which built on the Russian tech foundation (No F16 purchase against Pak). About F-35 and SU-57... stats can say anything but IAF should validate which one will bring strategic gain (Think twice before you act).

For F35 if S400 is a concern, can we split the air space of India for data security?

We also need to decide whether we are going to fight alone or we need allies. Allies also help in stop defense spending (Quad Indo-Pacific).

The major difference between Chinese and Indian are Defense PSUs... like students who always nod their heads whether you understand the subject or not, I am not saying all teachers(MOD) are also good .so I don't see anything going to change MK1, MK2 or AMCA.

Americans may never go for JV but we can try.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

You mean the next tranche of 36 Rafales shouldn't be more than 4.55 billion minus the arms package. If I'm not mistaken we've already paid for creating 2 bases at Ambala & Hashimara.

Yes, absolutely, but even if the bases have already been paid for, the weapons required are based on the number of aircraft, which is why I have anticipated their costs.

 

[randomradio]

Agree, the Russian systems S400, Brahmos,.. are good but when we think about countering Chinese. we need American systems as it's designed philosophies are quite different from a Chinese design, which built on the Russian tech foundation (No F16 purchase against Pak). About F-35 and SU-57... stats can say anything but IAF should validate which one will bring strategic gain (Think twice before you act).

It doesn't make a difference. We can only buy what's suitable for the mission, regardless of which country it comes from.

For F35 if S400 is a concern, can we split the air space of India for data security?

No.

We also need to decide whether we are going to fight alone or we need allies. Allies also help in stop defense spending (Quad Indo-Pacific).

We need allies, but it doesn't have to be the West. Vietnam and Indonesia can be allies in the SCS for example. The Americans always have the option of running away, these two countries don't. We need to make allies with countries that have a lot to lose in a fight with China. But we can definitely have deep cooperation with the Americans when it comes to China in the ocean, but it doesn't have to translate into an alliance.

In the long run, we won't have to worry too much about defence spending. Some of the ASEAN countries will also pitch in with their own ships and aircraft. There's also France with their own agenda.

The major difference between Chinese and Indian are Defense PSUs... like students who always nod their heads whether you understand the subject or not, I am not saying all teachers(MOD) are also good .so I don't see anything going to change MK1, MK2 or AMCA.

If our domestic projects fail, then we can look at alternatives. There is no need to go for imports now.

Americans may never go for JV but we can try.

It's useless. Even the 4 small pathfinder JVs are dead. They only want someone who will quietly buy from them, preferably without any demands for offsets, ToT, license production etc. Anyway, the stuff they have are all overpriced, we cannot afford pretty much everything hitech that they have. Even the 4th gen Javelin program was cancelled because the Americans asked for too much.

Originally, the DTTI program was called Defense Trade Initiative by the Americans. Parrikar wanted it changed to Defense Technology Initiative because the focus was on offsets and ToT. The Americans didn't want to remove Trade because they wanted it to focus exclusively on just the economic aspects of buying and selling. Later they compromised and it became Defense Technology and Trade Initiative. They have even backed out of their offsets commitments, like Boeing's trisonic wind tunnel. They later changed it to a manufacturing deal with TATA. It's because a wind tunnel would help our R&D effort, which goes against their interests.

So there's no use trying. It's dead.

The only successful JVs we have are with the Russians and French.

The Russians are the easiest to deal with since they are only looking at making money. There is no politics and no strings attached beyond the economics of a project. I'd prefer dealing with the French than the Americans.

The French have a lot of territory in the IOR and Pacific that they need protecting and they are doing a great job cooperating with India. They are a far more reliable partner, which is why even our engine programs are with them. We are cooperating on the Galileo navigation system. We are also setting up a space based real time ship tracking system.

India, France plan satellites for maritime surveillance: French space agency chief

France will also share its expertise with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) on inter-planetary missions to Mars and Venus, the Indian space agency's two major missions, Gall said.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

.

So we already have decent partners for JVs.

 

[randomradio]

You mean the next tranche of 36 Rafales shouldn't be more than 4.55 billion minus the arms package. If I'm not mistaken we've already paid for creating 2 bases at Ambala & Hashimara.

Why else do you think we have been clamouring for expanding the current order to 72 jets?

Euro 1.8B and 1.7B in customisation and infrastructure have already been paid for. The rest is about E 4.5B.

And these 36 can be assembled in DRAL.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Why else do you think we have been clamouring for expanding the current order to 72 jets?

Euro 1.8B and 1.7B in customisation and infrastructure have already been paid for. The rest is about E 4.5B.

And these 36 can be assembled in DRAL.

I think you'd appreciate the fact that we take your posts with some salt, whether a wee bit or a bucketful depends entirely on you, your euphoria & your hubristic posts. Hence the need for clarification from a 3rd party. Who better to do it than the French.

 

[randomradio]

I think you'd appreciate the fact that we take your posts with some salt, whether a wee bit or a bucketful depends entirely on you, your euphoria & your hubristic posts. Hence the need for clarification from a 3rd party. Who better to do it than the French.

Funny thing is Picdel pointed out that we have also bought the infrastructure for 36 more jets, based on the cost of the basing, and doing the math was easy enough since we knew the breakup of the contract since day one. 3.4 + 0.353 + 1.8 + 1.7 + .71. You take 1.7 and 1.8 out, you get about 4.5B euros for a repeat contract in the same configuration. This story is practically the most repeated story on this forum. All this was out and repeated since 2016.

The fact that you do not remember this makes it easy enough for one to confuse facts with hubris if you are unable to recollect past posts.

 

[Bon Plan]

I really do not know what to make of this. How is USA cancer? What did USA do to India?

Ask Egypt and UAE how they were free to use their F16 in 2011, during the Lybian affair....
USA did nothing to India... Except to ban after nuke trials. Except to try to sell you a old horse already selled to Pak (F16).

 

[Bon Plan]

True? not true ?

Know Your 'Rafale'

Exclusive: 4 Rafale jets ready with trained IAF crew | NewsX Why are they waiting end of july in this case?

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The Rafale pilot was talking about a dogfight.

And he did not say that the F-16 was difficult to fight: the question was which of these planes is the most difficult to fight? And the answer was the F-16, but it may be the hardest to fight and yet extremely easy to fight, it would only mean that the others are even easier to fight than it is.

 

[randomradio]

True? not true ?

https://Other Forum.com/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/post-1697754

View attachment 16533

For now, don't take it seriously.

But we know we would like 36 more jets given the circumstances.

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1276528072892665856

This has stirred up SM level debates

 

[Ankit Kumar]

True? not true ?

https://Other Forum.com/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/post-1697754

View attachment 16533

Not so fast actually. Any follow on order will happen only around the time of delivery of last batch of the ordered 36. Maybe in 2022.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1276528072892665856

This has stirred up SM level debates

Mig35 won't be acquired. Just talks it is.

Apart from high costs for operations, it's service life is just 60-70% of the Western counterparts. Means a replacement for them will be required at least a decade ahead. These things matter.

 

[Nikhil]

MIG 35 is a good choice. Buy what you can afford not what your heart desire.

 

[randomradio]

MIG 35 is a good choice. Buy what you can afford not what your heart desire.

It's not. It's the worst choice out of all the contenders.