MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Ankit Kumar]

Read somewhere Jalswa is given for training purpose only even with complement helicopters at the throw away price.

Similar to 1 USN Romeo along with MH/60 orders .

Only for training purpose cannot be used for actual war.

Nothing like that. The original program called for transfer of two such ships along with 8-12 Troop Transport variant of Sirkosky SeaKing.

But after the first ship was procured, CAG came to know about its operating conditions.

It could only be used in peacetime by Indian Navy. For its communication equipment on the ship it always had an American contingent. All these when came to light was a big embarassment for Navy.

So the 2nd ship and more Helicopters never came.

Indian Navy then struggled and worked hard with BEL for 4-5 years to actually replace all the important American equipment from the vessel and replace it with Indian components. Only after that it became possible for Navy to use it in even training.

Before that only usage possible was Humanitarian missions like during cyclones.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Failed Lockheed Martin F 16 carries no improvement potential for India, say IAF veterans

Despite the ovedrive by the US-based aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, no agreement for the F-16 Block 70/72 production was inked during the recently concluded visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US.

Despite the ovedrive by the US-based aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, no agreement for the F-16 Block 70/72 production was inked during the recently concluded visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US. Lockheed Martin has offered to move its lone production line of the latest version of fighter aircraft F-16 Block 70/72 to India from Texas to meet Indian and global requirement —with a condition: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has to choose the world’s largest-sold fighter aircraft for its fleet. Sources told FE, “No decision for the aircraft suitable to meet the immediate needs of the IAF is expected to be taken in the next six months. The Block 70/72 F-16 that is proposed is nothing but the same Block 60 aircraft developed for the UAE air force.

This was the same aircraft that participated in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition to supply 126 multi-role combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and was rejected, along with Swedish SAAB ‘Gripen’ in 2011. One of the reasons for the failure of F-16 at the time was that there was no room for any improvements or growth in the aircraft, explained a former fighter pilot who was one of the test pilots involved in trials. Today, the F-16 being offered to India for the IAF has absolutely no growth potential.

“Therefore, we should not buy these obsolete machines for the IAF. If procured, the aircraft will be in service for the next 40 years, which would be old for the air force,” he explained. The F-16 is a 40-year-old air frame; all the upgrades that are possible are already done. There is no room for any more growth. A 40-year-old design does have its limitations that cannot be overlooked. Today, modern fighter designs, whether single or twin engine, have matured — enabled by high technologies such as computational fluid dynamics (CFD) analysis — such that these aircraft are highly manoeuvreble and have exceptional dog fight capabilities.

Aided by new technology radars and beyond visual range missiles, these aircraft are super fighters with exceptional dog fight or combat capability. Best examples are Russian Su-30, Su-35, Lockheed Martin’s F-22 & F-35, French ‘Rafale’, and European ‘ Typhoon’, etc. Going for a single-engine-old aircraft, versus a multi-role aircraft for the IAF is a complete no. “Choice of single engine or twin engine does not depend on dog fight issue.

It has more to do with longer range and endurance, higher weapons capability, etc,” explained a former senior IAF officer. According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”

 

[Bon Plan]

Failed Lockheed Martin F 16 carries no improvement potential for India, say IAF veterans

Despite the ovedrive by the US-based aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, no agreement for the F-16 Block 70/72 production was inked during the recently concluded visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US.

Despite the ovedrive by the US-based aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, no agreement for the F-16 Block 70/72 production was inked during the recently concluded visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US. Lockheed Martin has offered to move its lone production line of the latest version of fighter aircraft F-16 Block 70/72 to India from Texas to meet Indian and global requirement —with a condition: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has to choose the world’s largest-sold fighter aircraft for its fleet. Sources told FE, “No decision for the aircraft suitable to meet the immediate needs of the IAF is expected to be taken in the next six months. The Block 70/72 F-16 that is proposed is nothing but the same Block 60 aircraft developed for the UAE air force.

This was the same aircraft that participated in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition to supply 126 multi-role combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and was rejected, along with Swedish SAAB ‘Gripen’ in 2011. One of the reasons for the failure of F-16 at the time was that there was no room for any improvements or growth in the aircraft, explained a former fighter pilot who was one of the test pilots involved in trials. Today, the F-16 being offered to India for the IAF has absolutely no growth potential.

“Therefore, we should not buy these obsolete machines for the IAF. If procured, the aircraft will be in service for the next 40 years, which would be old for the air force,” he explained. The F-16 is a 40-year-old air frame; all the upgrades that are possible are already done. There is no room for any more growth. A 40-year-old design does have its limitations that cannot be overlooked. Today, modern fighter designs, whether single or twin engine, have matured — enabled by high technologies such as computational fluid dynamics (CFD) analysis — such that these aircraft are highly manoeuvreble and have exceptional dog fight capabilities.

Aided by new technology radars and beyond visual range missiles, these aircraft are super fighters with exceptional dog fight or combat capability. Best examples are Russian Su-30, Su-35, Lockheed Martin’s F-22 & F-35, French ‘Rafale’, and European ‘ Typhoon’, etc. Going for a single-engine-old aircraft, versus a multi-role aircraft for the IAF is a complete no. “Choice of single engine or twin engine does not depend on dog fight issue.

It has more to do with longer range and endurance, higher weapons capability, etc,” explained a former senior IAF officer. According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”

Tu nous manques sur Air-Defense.net ....

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1281572139460509696

https://twitter.com/x/status/1281577075292254208

Posting it here although it's not exclusively about the MMRCA.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1281572139460509696

https://twitter.com/x/status/1281577075292254208

Posting it here although it's not exclusively about the MMRCA.

2nd hand Mirage 2000 upgraded to latest standards. It's really nice to see someone else also talking about this particular option.

Rest our fleet revitalization really depends upon 3 main pillars. How fast we can sign the Tejas MK1A deal, how fast we can implement a deep upgrade and overhaul program for Su30MKI and continuous staggered buying of Rafales for next 5-6 years atleast.

 

[Sathya]

2nd hand Mirage 2000 upgraded to latest standards. It's really nice to see someone else also talking about this particular option.

Rest our fleet revitalization really depends upon 3 main pillars. How fast we can sign the Tejas MK1A deal, how fast we can implement a deep upgrade and overhaul program for Su30MKI and continuous staggered buying of Rafales for next 5-6 years atleast.

We are upgrading

Jaguars with Darin 3 with Aesa.
Mirages to 2005 standard
Mig 29 UPG again with new ?? Something.

Procure new

Rafales - 36 in next 2 years
Tejas - 83 will start after 3 years

Only Su 30 upgrades are not in sight anywhere...

 

[Ankit Kumar]

We are upgrading

Jaguars with Darin 3 with Aesa.
Mirages to 2005 standard
Mig 29 UPG again with new ?? Something.

Procure new

Rafales - 36 in next 2 years
Tejas - 83 will start after 3 years

Only Su 30 upgrades are not in sight anywhere...

I am not enthusiastic enough for Jaguar upgrade due to a couple of reasons. First is the aircraft age. Out of the fleet of 120+ aircrafts we are looking at only around 61 aircrafts receiving the DARIN III upgrade. The rest won't. The non upgraded squadrons will start to go out of service in 2023 and in 2025. The upgrade for the 61 aircraft is to be completed by 2024 and will give them 10 years extention, meaning service upto 2034-35. The second issue is its engine and weight, even without the DARIN III upgrade, the Jaguars as of now are underpowered, meaning limitations on its payload when operating from other bases of Forward Air Bases where the runway length might be a concern. And when DARIN III happens, the power issue will further increase only. It will severely impact it's payload capabilities and it's sensor capabilities too.

Even the Mig29UPG after upgrade, is adding 10 years to the airframes. So they aren't exactly solutions.

But a Mirage 2000 I/TI updated gives the airframes 15-20 years. That's a big difference.

 

[TARGET]

2nd hand Mirage 2000 upgraded to latest standards. It's really nice to see someone else also talking about this particular option.

Rest our fleet revitalization really depends upon 3 main pillars. How fast we can sign the Tejas MK1A deal, how fast we can implement a deep upgrade and overhaul program for Su30MKI and continuous staggered buying of Rafales for next 5-6 years atleast.

2nd hand Mirage though it's a good suggestion it will create many more issues .we shouldn't be busy on fixing things. The issue with India is not lack of fund rather it's lack of decision making.
MK1a acquisition should be 1st on the list, next upgrading MKI with Indian subsystems and finally, the acquisition should be on the capability not on the numbers.

 

[randomradio]

continuous staggered buying of Rafales for next 5-6 years atleast.

I'd like to see a single contract for 72 Rafale F4.2s instead. We need those produced in India instead of getting them flyaway from Dassault.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I'd like to see a single contract for 72 Rafale F4.2s instead. We need those produced in India instead of getting them flyaway from Dassault.

That won't happen without the MMRCA 2 being completed. But staggered buying is possible since we have infrastructure to handle additional squadrons.

 

[randomradio]

Only Su 30 upgrades are not in sight anywhere...

It's still under negotiations. Dunno when, could be this year, or next year, but you're gonna hear a sudden announcement about it.

 

[randomradio]

I am not enthusiastic enough for Jaguar upgrade due to a couple of reasons. First is the aircraft age. Out of the fleet of 120+ aircrafts we are looking at only around 61 aircrafts receiving the DARIN III upgrade. The rest won't. The non upgraded squadrons will start to go out of service in 2023 and in 2025. The upgrade for the 61 aircraft is to be completed by 2024 and will give them 10 years extention, meaning service upto 2034-35. The second issue is its engine and weight, even without the DARIN III upgrade, the Jaguars as of now are underpowered, meaning limitations on its payload when operating from other bases of Forward Air Bases where the runway length might be a concern. And when DARIN III happens, the power issue will further increase only. It will severely impact it's payload capabilities and it's sensor capabilities too.

Even the Mig29UPG after upgrade, is adding 10 years to the airframes. So they aren't exactly solutions.

But a Mirage 2000 I/TI updated gives the airframes 15-20 years. That's a big difference.

Jaguar will see retirement from 2028. Had the re-engine program gone through, HAL planned to upgrade the DARIN II jets as well.

Also, 37 were bought only in the 2000s, about the same age as the oldest MKIs, and can easily see service all the way through 2040 and can be further upgraded to continue into the 2050s. Although it wouldn't make sense, but it's possible.

That won't happen without the MMRCA 2 being completed. But staggered buying is possible since we have infrastructure to handle additional squadrons.

That was actually very close to happening in 2018. MoD had planned to go directly for 90 jets MII. But RaGa and his motley crew scuttled that plan with their ridiculous attacks on the govt.

 

[randomradio]

2nd hand Mirage though it's a good suggestion it will create many more issues .we shouldn't be busy on fixing things. The issue with India is not lack of fund rather it's lack of decision making.
MK1a acquisition should be 1st on the list, next upgrading MKI with Indian subsystems and finally, the acquisition should be on the capability not on the numbers.

Yep. We do not need any more M2000s. At best, we need replacements for the 3 two-seaters we lost. More M2000 is definitely gonna be a very expensive deal, perhaps about 70% of the cost of a Rafale. I'd rather buy 1 Rafale over 2 M2000s. So the money can be better spent elsewhere. The MWF will take care of our future needs in that segment.

 

[Lolwa]

The only way forward is to heavily invest in mk1a and MWF. That is the only way to increase our numbers reliably. And if we want a cheap counterpart we have the mig 35 a seperate g2g deal without the mmrca can increase the numbers. The only reason Russian systems make sense is because they are cheap we have the infrastructure and training on them wouldn't take as much time as the rafale did. The rafale deal happened in 2016 I suppose and it took atleast 4 years for the aircraft to come with the trained pilots. We could buy American systems but we don't have much experience on them either. The f21 isn't a bad deal though I would love to have the f15 ex but that's just a fools dream. They would be much faster at producing and delivering the aircrafts to us.
Buying a 100 mig 35 would cost us around 8 billion $ including additional costs. And it would give us enough breathing room for the much more expensive MMRCAs to come in and setup. AMCA and su 57 will come in around the 2030-2035. By that time these deliveries would be over. Most modern af will start there transition to fifth gen completely. So we still have time...

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The only way forward is to heavily invest in mk1a and MWF. That is the only way to increase our numbers reliably. And if we want a cheap counterpart we have the mig 35 a seperate g2g deal without the mmrca can increase the numbers. The only reason Russian systems make sense is because they are cheap we have the infrastructure and training on them wouldn't take as much time as the rafale did. The rafale deal happened in 2016 I suppose and it took atleast 4 years for the aircraft to come with the trained pilots. We could buy American systems but we don't have much experience on them. They would be much faster at producing and delivering the aircrafts to us.
Buy a 100 mig 35 would cost us around 8 billion $ including everything. And it would give us enough breathing room for the much more expensive MMRCAs to come in and setup. AMCA and su 57 will come in around the 2030-2035. By that time these deliveries would be over. Most modern af will start there transition to fifth gen completely. So we still have time...

Wrong assumptions here.

45 million USD investment for a fighter jet with 20 years of life and 65-70% availability

Vs

90 million USD investment for Rafale with 40 years and 75-85% availability.

Plus Russians are yet to get the AESA working. And how huge the success of Mig35 is can be measured by humongous order by Russians themselves.

 

[Lolwa]

Wrong assumptions here.

45 million USD investment for a fighter jet with 20 years of life and 65-70% availability

Vs

90 million USD investment for Rafale with 40 years and 75-85% availability.

Plus Russians are yet to get the AESA working. And how huge the success of Mig35 is can be measured by humongous order by Russians themselves.

Well I partially agree with you for the short lifespan. But that's why I want the Russian fighters because by 2040 we will have to transition our airforce with fifth gen fighters completely that won't realistically happen because it's India we are talking about. But we will get enough breathing space for the time being so that we can get good numbers of squadrons of the mmrca and amca and maybe the su57. And the fga 35 is online now and has similar performance to uttam so it will do the job for us for the time being. The Egyptian mig 35s should have it but I couldn't find info on that. But it's a decent stop gap measure that could help us maintaining our squadron strength.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Yep. We do not need any more M2000s. At best, we need replacements for the 3 two-seaters we lost. More M2000 is definitely gonna be a very expensive deal, perhaps about 70% of the cost of a Rafale. I'd rather buy 1 Rafale over 2 M2000s. So the money can be better spent elsewhere. The MWF will take care of our future needs in that segment.

Mirage 2000s from Qatar stocks, or UAE stocks which UAE was willing to sell to Egypt are already upgraded. They will not need the same level of investment. 20-30 million on Mirage2000 is any day better than Mig29s

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Well I partially agree with you for the short lifespan. But that's why I want the Russian fighters because by 2040 we will have to transition our airforce with fifth gen fighters completely that won't realistically happen because it's India we are talking about. But we will get enough breathing space for the time being so that we can get good numbers of squadrons of the mmrca and amca and maybe the su57. And the fga 35 is online now and has similar performance to uttam so it will do the job for us for the time being. The Egyptian mig 35s should have it but I couldn't find info on that. But it's a decent stop gap measure that could help us maintaining our squadron strength.

Egyptians agreed to buy Mig35 impressed by the promotions of Russians , only later to find out the real status of project and ended up ordering land based variant of Mig29K , and not Mig35.

The Russians again went with the Proposal of selling Mig35 after the deliveries of Mig29 were complete , but Egyptians instead ordered Su35.

Russians themselves have cut the orders from 60 aircrafts to 37 to 24 to finally 6 aircrafts over 4 years. Without AESA , without TV engines too.

 

[Lolwa]

Egyptians agreed to buy Mig35 impressed by the promotions of Russians , only later to find out the real status of project and ended up ordering land based variant of Mig29K , and not Mig35.

The Russians again went with the Proposal of selling Mig35 after the deliveries of Mig29 were complete , but Egyptians instead ordered Su35.

Russians themselves have cut the orders from 60 aircrafts to 37 to 24 to finally 6 aircrafts over 4 years. Without AESA , without TV engines too.

Interesting because according to what I read they were buying the mig 35 but the Egyptian media were calling it mig 29 for some reason . Must be Russian propaganda in any case the Russian aesa is atleast working or maybe that's also Russian propaganda. Mig 29 is Still a cheap option if we want to maintain squadron strength. We could go for f21 but too expensive for what's its worth..