MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Ankit Kumar]

That's only HAL. With Dassault taking over production, that won't be a problem.

We should learn from our mistakes. We have built thousands of aircraft under licence till now and still are struggling. It's just not worth it. It's just not feasible. Nothing to do with HAL.

Even the Japanese realised this with their F35 production plans.

 

[randomradio]

We should learn from our mistakes. We have built thousands of aircraft under licence till now and still are struggling. It's just not worth it. It's just not feasible. Nothing to do with HAL.

That's just how PSUs are. Nothing else.

Even the Japanese realised this with their F35 production plans.

For them it's volumes. They don't build enough.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

That's just how PSUs are. Nothing else.



For them it's volumes. They don't build enough.

Their plans of number of F35 to be acquired is much more than our plans for MMRCA. So if anything volumes will be our problem.

Give an example of successful License Production of a 4++ generation fighter anywhere in the world. It's just not feasible.

 

[randomradio]

Their plans of number of F35 to be acquired is much more than our plans for MMRCA. So if anything volumes will be our problem.

Actually, a quick look says this year they have reduced costs so will continue assembling the F-35 in Japan. It's 86.3M per jet.

Japan to Continue Assembling F-35A Fighter Jets at Home

Japan intends to continue to assemble F-35As at a local facility in Nagoya.

thediplomat.com

Give an example of successful License Production of a 4++ generation fighter anywhere in the world. It's just not feasible.

4th gen, there's Turkey's F-16s. Sufficient volumes and built to a higher standard of quality. They are even exporting their upgrades.

For 4++, there's not been any production deals at all or recently started. There's only Brazil with Gripen E, but barely begun.

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1278154103303008256

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Actually, a quick look says this year they have reduced costs so will continue assembling the F-35 in Japan. It's 86.3M per jet.

Japan to Continue Assembling F-35A Fighter Jets at Home

Japan intends to continue to assemble F-35As at a local facility in Nagoya.

thediplomat.com

4th gen, there's Turkey's F-16s. Sufficient volumes and built to a higher standard of quality. They are even exporting their upgrades.

For 4++, there's not been any production deals at all or recently started. There's only Brazil with Gripen E, but barely begun.

F16 production in Turkey was more than a decade before. The last orders placed in 2005-6-7. After that it's just MLU from kits supplied from USA. And no they are not exporting their upgrades. They are offering USA procured Falcon MLU kits to be fitted on F16s.

Cannot be really compared.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1278154103303008256

It's idiotic how media portals write anything for clicks. 4-5 Apache, 5-6 Chinook, 12-13 M777 and 6-7 Rafales do not make difference. Capabilities are built over years. Not overnight.

 

[Hydra]

This is IAF's official stand on the F-16. Renaming it doesn't change it. This is what the MoD also said to the US when rejecting the F-16 and SH. The same with the Russian Mig-35.

Failed Lockheed Martin F 16 carries no improvement potential for India, say IAF veterans

Despite the ovedrive by the US-based aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, no agreement for the F-16 Block 70/72 production was inked during the recently concluded visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US.

www.financialexpress.com

“Therefore, we should not buy these obsolete machines for the IAF. If procured, the aircraft will be in service for the next 40 years, which would be old for the air force,” he explained. The F-16 is a 40-year-old air frame; all the upgrades that are possible are already done. There is no room for any more growth. A 40-year-old design does have its limitations that cannot be overlooked. Today, modern fighter designs, whether single or twin engine, have matured — enabled by high technologies such as computational fluid dynamics (CFD) analysis — such that these aircraft are highly manoeuvreble and have exceptional dog fight capabilities.

Aided by new technology radars and beyond visual range missiles, these aircraft are super fighters with exceptional dog fight or combat capability. Best examples are Russian Su-30, Su-35, Lockheed Martin’s F-22 & F-35, French ‘Rafale’, and European ‘ Typhoon’, etc. Going for a single-engine-old aircraft, versus a multi-role aircraft for the IAF is a complete no. “Choice of single engine or twin engine does not depend on dog fight issue.

It has more to do with longer range and endurance, higher weapons capability, etc,” explained a former senior IAF officer. According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”

PS: He's the guy who signed India up for MMRCA.


Read above. The F-15 is even older than the F-16.

F15 is older than f16, but USAF is purchasing f15EX that too 159 peices. So decades of service & support is assured.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

F15 like Su35 is in Su30MKI class. Won't be procured. Will loose out based on operating costs and parameters required. Mig29 will loose out due to its short service life and non operational AESA. Typhoon is too costly to procure upfront.

It's purely between Rafale, F16 , Gripen E/F and Super Hornet.

 

[randomradio]

F16 production in Turkey was more than a decade before. The last orders placed in 2005-6-7. After that it's just MLU from kits supplied from USA. And no they are not exporting their upgrades. They are offering USA procured Falcon MLU kits to be fitted on F16s.

Not at all. They did full fledged license production, not just final assembly.

Anyway, HAL is the problem, most of these countries that made F-16s were pretty good.

 

[randomradio]

F15 is older than f16, but USAF is purchasing f15EX that too 159 peices. So decades of service & support is assured.

That's not what we are concerned about. The F-15 of any model is antique by our standards. The aircraft makes sense only for an existing operator of the F-15 as a stop gap measure until better jets become available.

For the USAF, the F-15EX is only to add numbers in the cheapest possible manner. For us MMRCA is a capability upgrade. And the F-15 is far too inferior to add capability upgrade. It's simply not designed for the missions we want it for. So it won't even get through evaluations anyway.

36 Rafales are better than 80 F-15EX. There is a massive capability difference between the two.

 

[Nikhil]

Here what India need to do in my opinion. IAF should buy 2 Sqd worth of F 15EX ( 36 or 42 to be precise depending on Sqd size ) and go for 2 Sqd more of rafale( 36 ) . IN should go for F 18 Blok 3. Buy directly from supplier instead of licencing.

HAL meanwhile should continue with its upgradation of MIG , mirage and Sukhois.

That's not what we are concerned about. The F-15 of any model is antique by our standards. The aircraft makes sense only for an existing operator of the F-15 as a stop gap measure until better jets become available.

For the USAF, the F-15EX is only to add numbers in the cheapest possible manner. For us MMRCA is a capability upgrade. And the F-15 is far too inferior to add capability upgrade. It's simply not designed for the missions we want it for. So it won't even get through evaluations anyway.

36 Rafales are better than 80 F-15EX. There is a massive capability difference between the two.

Do you even think before posting ?

 

[Nikhil]

I have actual doubts on Shornet. The thing is fat and can't fly. A rafale can do rounds around it. A mixed buy if it could happen would be good though impractical. Basically 57 rafale's and another 18 ea 18g growlers. And f35b for the IN is a better idea than for the IAF.
F15 even though if it wins will lose out as an L1 bid because of how costly the plane is. So it's either the rafale or f21.

EW and radar of F 18 is superior to rafale and If F 35 is offered we should buy it...as it is superior to anything out there.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Not at all. They did full fledged license production, not just final assembly.

Anyway, HAL is the problem, most of these countries that made F-16s were pretty good.

F16 production is not a good comparison for our case anyways I will say. Only modern 4.5 or 4++ gen licence assembly program might be Gripen in Brazil. But even that one will be more like Final Assembly plant as most of its important components will come manufactured already.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

EW and radar of F 18 is superior to rafale and If F 35 is offered we should buy it...as it is superior to anything out there.

If offered , then agree on the F35 point.

Else we should know our aukat. It will do us no good by buying 40 Rafales, 40 Typhoons, 40 F16s, 40 F15s and 40 F18s like some middle East nations.

We should be working to reduce the types of aircraft in our inventory, avoid duplication to keep down the operating costs. Not increase it.

 

[Nikhil]

If offered , then agree on the F35 point.

Else we should know our aukat. It will do us no good by buying 40 Rafales, 40 Typhoons, 40 F16s, 40 F15s and 40 F18s like some middle East nations.

We should be working to reduce the types of aircraft in our inventory, avoid duplication to keep down the operating costs. Not increase it.

my idea of having a bigger zoo is making sure all western doors are closed for PAF. With small buy off F 15EX ... we may also get F 35 and AIM 260 in future along with other American goodies.

 

[randomradio]

F15 like Su35 is in Su30MKI class. Won't be procured. Will loose out based on operating costs and parameters required. Mig29 will loose out due to its short service life and non operational AESA. Typhoon is too costly to procure upfront.

It's purely between Rafale, F16 , Gripen E/F and Super Hornet.

F-16 and Gripen will lose a lot of points when it comes to survivability and single engine performance. Neither of them will achieve points for 8T payload. They won't get shortlisted for these parameters alone. Then there are issues relating to ToT for both jets, especially the F-16.

All the teens will lose out due to age of design, even the SH. They will all get automatically rejected due to that. I mean, if they were rejected in 2011 for those reasons, then it's obvious they will get rejected 10 years later for the same reason. Mig-35 and Su-35 will both lose out due to the same reason as well, although both will have AESA radars by the time the jets come in for evaluations a year after RFP release.

Typhoon is expensive, that's the very reason why it will get shortlisted alongside Rafale. It is the only jet other than the Rafale that has the means to successfully complete evaluations and has the full qualifications necessary to lose to the Rafale at price point. The IAF will ensure these two jets are the ones that are shortlisted.

F16 production is not a good comparison for our case anyways I will say. Only modern 4.5 or 4++ gen licence assembly program might be Gripen in Brazil. But even that one will be more like Final Assembly plant as most of its important components will come manufactured already.

There are no license production programs for 4.5th gen jets yet.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

my idea of having a bigger zoo is making sure all western doors are closed for PAF. With small buy off F 15EX ... we may also get F 35 and AIM 260 in future along with other American goodies.

The most probable western fighter procurement for Pakistan is Tranche 1 Typhoons from German and Italian inventory.

 

[Nikhil]

The most probable western fighter procurement for Pakistan is Tranche 1 Typhoons from German and Italian inventory.

Then time to buy one Sqd worth of typhoon

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Then time to buy one Sqd worth of typhoon

But Germany, UK, Italy and Spain. These 4 actually are no France. Pakistan has a dedicated office in UK, Germany and Italy in their embassies for arms procurement from these countries. We donot hold any large scale economic options for which these countries will shun pakistan.

 

[Hydra]

That's not what we are concerned about. The F-15 of any model is antique by our standards. The aircraft makes sense only for an existing operator of the F-15 as a stop gap measure until better jets become available.

For the USAF, the F-15EX is only to add numbers in the cheapest possible manner. For us MMRCA is a capability upgrade. And the F-15 is far too inferior to add capability upgrade. It's simply not designed for the missions we want it for. So it won't even get through evaluations anyway.

36 Rafales are better than 80 F-15EX. There is a massive capability difference between the two.

I know you are a USA phobic, you will find excuses to ridicule even f22.