MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 31 13.1%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.9%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    237
Nope. It's 2022.Given the current geopolitical situation we can't afford to delay it any further. We could have it next year too but the situation is far to messy economically to do so. Hence 2022.

We can get it done this year itself. It's just RFP. By the time it turns into a contract, it's gonna be the next term.

The only way it can be delayed is if the govt decides to buy 36 more Rafales. This can be signed in 2022, after the last Rafale is delivered, alongside the release of the RFP a few months after.
 
So why did you jump from 2021 to 2023 ?

Two cases: If 36 more Rafales are ordered, we can delay the RFP by a few years. If the orders don't come, then we have to start the RFP process this year or the next.

The thing is the CDS and IAF are not on the same page. The CDS is open for ordering 36 more Rafales and continue that trend until requirements are met. This plan is affordable and quick to initiate. Whereas the IAF is more interested in an RFP process for a large number of jets so that they don't miss out on technology that has been developed over the last 10 years since the previous evaluations.

What works in the IAF's favour is the MMRCA 2.0 is part of the SPM process. And what works in the CDS's favour is he's the frigging CDS and ranks above the IAF, plus he has 2.5 years to work on his plan before retirement. We may get one or the other or a combination of both.

There's one more important thing that works in the CDS's favour. Once the IAF starts operating the Rafale in numbers, perhaps by early next year, they may come around to skipping the RFP process and just ask for more Rafales instead.

The CDS is also looking at the big picture. He is more keen on producing indigenous technology, so he would rather import the Rafale and use the offsets to develop the indigenous industry instead of building another LEGO company. Due to our lower cost of operations, manufacturing offsets have yielded a lot of orders from American companies beyond the minimum required because they find it profitable to keep going. Different story that Dassault also wants to join in.

Hence the flexibility.
 
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Two cases: If 36 more Rafales are ordered, we can delay the RFP by a few years. If the orders don't come, then we have to start the RFP process this year or the next.

The thing is the CDS and IAF are not on the same page. The CDS is open for ordering 36 more Rafales and continue that trend until requirements are met. This plan is affordable and quit to initiate. Whereas the IAF is more interested in an RFP process for a large number of jets so that they don't miss out on technology that has been developed over the last 10 years since the previous evaluations.

What works in the IAF's favour is the MMRCA 2.0 is part of the SPM process. And what works in the CDS's favour is he's the frigging CDS and ranks above the IAF, plus he has 2.5 years to work on his plan before retirement. We may get one or the other or a combination of both.

There's one more important thing that works in the CDS's favour. Once the IAF starts operating the Rafale in numbers, perhaps by early next year, they may come around to skipping the RFP process and just ask for more Rafales instead.

The CDS is also looking at the big picture. He is more keen on producing indigenous technology, so he would rather import the Rafale and use the offsets to develop the indigenous industry instead of building another LEGO company. Due to our lower cost of operations, manufacturing offsets have yielded a lot of orders from American companies beyond the minimum required because they find it profitable to keep going. Different story that Dassault also wants to join in.

Hence the flexibility.
Those 36 Rafales could well be ordered this year itself with the GoI leaning on the DA & GoF to expedite delivery of the current lot before their scheduled time & commence manufacturing & delivery of the 2nd lot ASAP.

This would definitely see the MMRCA-2.0 shoved into the cold storage, perhaps, indefinitely or it could result in an RFP in 2022 .
 
We are just dreaming here, 38,900 crore was spent just a few days back, another 38,000 crore order for 83 Tejas Mark 1A will be cleared soon. After this we are going to pay for existing orders like S-400, Rafale etc.

So, Expect Request for Proposal drama for 2-3 yrs and total 4-5 years for final contract signing of this MMRCA 2.0
 
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Those 36 Rafales could well be ordered this year itself with the GoI leaning on the DA & GoF to expedite delivery of the current lot before their scheduled time & commence manufacturing & delivery of the 2nd lot ASAP.

This would definitely see the MMRCA-2.0 shoved into the cold storage, perhaps, indefinitely or it could result in an RFP in 2022 .

How much I wish that India buy a few F-21......not sure, if it is good to shove mk1a down the throats of IAF? Maybe, it is better to cut MK1A to 2 squadrons (i.e.36) and buy many F-21 to fill up the depleting squadrons......36 mk1a will give some job security to HAL...so, their lobby will be happy.....
 
Two cases: If 36 more Rafales are ordered, we can delay the RFP by a few years. If the orders don't come, then we have to start the RFP process this year or the next.

The thing is the CDS and IAF are not on the same page. The CDS is open for ordering 36 more Rafales and continue that trend until requirements are met. This plan is affordable and quit to initiate. Whereas the IAF is more interested in an RFP process for a large number of jets so that they don't miss out on technology that has been developed over the last 10 years since the previous evaluations.

What works in the IAF's favour is the MMRCA 2.0 is part of the SPM process. And what works in the CDS's favour is he's the frigging CDS and ranks above the IAF, plus he has 2.5 years to work on his plan before retirement. We may get one or the other or a combination of both.

There's one more important thing that works in the CDS's favour. Once the IAF starts operating the Rafale in numbers, perhaps by early next year, they may come around to skipping the RFP process and just ask for more Rafales instead.

The CDS is also looking at the big picture. He is more keen on producing indigenous technology, so he would rather import the Rafale and use the offsets to develop the indigenous industry instead of building another LEGO company. Due to our lower cost of operations, manufacturing offsets have yielded a lot of orders from American companies beyond the minimum required because they find it profitable to keep going. Different story that Dassault also wants to join in.

Hence the flexibility.
Order 54 more rafales and end up with f15EX in mmrca2 is the right choice for us. We will have sufficient rafale for precise ground attack & and a superior fighter than chinese su35 & j20 through f15EX.
 
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Gentlemen- what is the update on MMRCA 2.0? How much more time required to make a choice and award the contract? The number of squadrons are depleting and there is no sense of urgency here. Or are we thinking of canceling MMRCA 2.0 as well just like it predecessor to fund Tejas? Earlier we kept sitting on FGFA and finally decided against it. What is wrong with our decision making?
Tejas will never replace MMRCA.
Tejas is and will stay a light fighter. A point defense jet with some more capacity.
MMRCA is intended to be a medium jet able to make deep strike. Tejas will never be able to do that (just because not study for that).
India need the two.
 
Nope. It's 2022.Given the current geopolitical situation we can't afford to delay it any further. We could have it next year too but the situation is far to messy economically to do so. Hence 2022.
2022, 2023....
India takes its time..... 126 Mirage 2000 never purchased.... MMRCA1 deleted.... Tejas late....
 
Those 36 Rafales could well be ordered this year itself with the GoI leaning on the DA & GoF to expedite delivery of the current lot before their scheduled time & commence manufacturing & delivery of the 2nd lot ASAP.

This would definitely see the MMRCA-2.0 shoved into the cold storage, perhaps, indefinitely or it could result in an RFP in 2022 .

More Rafales is a $5B investment, and LCA is also a $5B investment. So I don't think it's possible this year for GoI to make a $10B investment in 1 year for the IAF alone. Especially when a contract is also required for 33 Russian jets.

As the CDS said, a follow-on order for Rafale will be initiated after the first 36 are delivered, so 2022 for this deal is good enough.
 
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How much I wish that India buy a few F-21......not sure, if it is good to shove mk1a down the throats of IAF? Maybe, it is better to cut MK1A to 2 squadrons (i.e.36) and buy many F-21 to fill up the depleting squadrons......36 mk1a will give some job security to HAL...so, their lobby will be happy.....

This is IAF's official stand on the F-16. Renaming it doesn't change it. This is what the MoD also said to the US when rejecting the F-16 and SH. The same with the Russian Mig-35.

“Therefore, we should not buy these obsolete machines for the IAF. If procured, the aircraft will be in service for the next 40 years, which would be old for the air force,” he explained. The F-16 is a 40-year-old air frame; all the upgrades that are possible are already done. There is no room for any more growth. A 40-year-old design does have its limitations that cannot be overlooked. Today, modern fighter designs, whether single or twin engine, have matured — enabled by high technologies such as computational fluid dynamics (CFD) analysis — such that these aircraft are highly manoeuvreble and have exceptional dog fight capabilities.

Aided by new technology radars and beyond visual range missiles, these aircraft are super fighters with exceptional dog fight or combat capability. Best examples are Russian Su-30, Su-35, Lockheed Martin’s F-22 & F-35, French ‘Rafale’, and European ‘ Typhoon’, etc. Going for a single-engine-old aircraft, versus a multi-role aircraft for the IAF is a complete no. “Choice of single engine or twin engine does not depend on dog fight issue.

It has more to do with longer range and endurance, higher weapons capability, etc,” explained a former senior IAF officer. According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”


PS: He's the guy who signed India up for MMRCA.
Order 54 more rafales and end up with f15EX in mmrca2 is the right choice for us. We will have sufficient rafale for precise ground attack & and a superior fighter than chinese su35 & j20 through f15EX.

Read above. The F-15 is even older than the F-16.
 
More Rafales is a $5B investment, and LCA is also a $5B investment. So I don't think it's possible this year for GoI to make a $10B investment in 1 year for the IAF alone. Especially when a contract is also required for 33 Russian jets.

As the CDS said, a follow-on order for Rafale will be initiated after the first 36 are delivered, so 2022 for this deal is good enough.
Or maybe before the last batch is delivered to ensure continued supplies of 8-10 aircrafts each year without a gap. But then everything comes back to availability of funding.
 
It's the contrary.
Such a huge country as India can't be aligned. You need to be free.
We are already a swing state but non-alignment doesn't pay any dividends. Let's see we have the Americans,Western Europe ,Japanese and Saudi Arabia on one side all with much more influence,then we have China which is a clear geopolitically rival and has allies like Pakistan and NoKo and other failed states in Africa. Also we have the Russians but Russians play it solo and there is a limit on how long we can maintain their loyalty towards us considering the Chinese are increasing there influence and making Russia closer to China. A place we can't really compete with. Then there is the nutcase Iran. Let's compare we have Israel on one side that is extremely pro India and has no bad blood with us and Iran which basically treats us like a condom and itself is useless. The Iranians don't have any good technology the oil is there only leverage which can be switched to Saudi oil.
There are places where we can cooperate and even interoperate. There is the foreign office, intelligence and even space. But definitely not the military.
Intelligence and foreign office and space cooperation are just jumlas. We have been doing that with the Americans since the 60's. The Americans send U2 spy planes during the 62 war on the begging of nehru. It's only when we operate with the Americans do we start entering modern warfare. And the backing of the Americans make any countries influence jump magnitudes in proportion. Look at Israel,South Korea even Taiwan to an extent. They do have much more influence due to American backing.
Where on earth did you get that?
Simply look at our armed forces. We are under-equipped. We are atleast a generation behind all western forces. Just look at poland JW Grom. It looked like a rag tag special forces before Afghanistan after that they have basically become one of the most elite spec ops unit in Europe. The 27th Feb showed us some deficiencies in our arsenal like lack of secured data link and radios. It was because of impressive training that IAF pilots managed to handle the whole fiasco but it also showed how lack of awareness our forces had. There is no integrated battlefield awareness. It's basic stuff like this which shows we are not a modern warfighting force. I have no love for Pravin Sawhney but there is a reason he cries buzzwords like interoperability,"6th gen AI war" for a reason. He has been calling out the deficiencies of our armed forces for decades. His twitter career is just a new ISI funded drama but he has got a lot things right about what plagues our armed forces. The only saving grace is that we are fighting forces that our inferior to us or just a little better. Otherwise I would love to see how would IA fare against a modern military. The Pakistanis are much more pragmatic and even with budget issues have much better equipment standardisation. They are technologically inferior to us and their tactics are questionable but the Pakistanis do have their basics clear on how to take on us.
Haven't you noticed how much they keep pressing us to buy their F-16 or their THAAD/Patriot?
Well because they want to ally with us. They want better interoperability with us. Do you really think we will be fighting against an American ally in the near future? All our enemies are also against the Americans. Americans have literally given us a red carpet and want us to join them it's us who are suffering the nehruvian schizophrenia of non-alignment. And CAATSA isn't stopping us with some diplomatic negotiations we can handle the Americans while buying Russian hardware while at the same time be in the American orbit. Also Americans love money and they thrive on defense deals so why won't they be forcing us. All countries do that the French,Russians and even the Swedes do that, does that make them nefarious? Why do people think that allying with a more powerful country will result in us losing sovereignty? If anything it has shown after the galwan drama that we need the Americans as much as they need us.
The Americans only treat those who are truly autonomous as autonomous. Do you see the Americans press the French to buy their weapons?
Because the French have their own defense industry ours is still at a nascent stage. And they don't give out tenders for MMRCAs that go out for 20 years at the end of which their government scraps the deals because the original tender was not "well made". And the Americans forced the Germans to buy the F 18 superhornet even though they had their own defense industry and are autonomous to some extent.
And if autonomy is such a strong argument why is that every American ally is basically free to do anything and only thing the Americans do is reprimand them. The Israelis do whatever they want and the Jewish lobby in America manages the Senate so no serious calling out ever occurs. The Saudis are pretty much murdering yemenis and also Khasoggi what did the Americans do another reprimand. Similarly Pakistan has been backing Taliban since forever and what do the Americans do absolutely nothing. Same for the Chinese. The Americans allow autonomy as long as you don't go against American interests. And as an indian I know that our geopolitical ambitions are regional at best not global. So there is literally no loss we will experience going with the Americans. The Russians are like Israel an arms dealer with decent geopolitically clout but that's it. Even getting closer with the French is a better idea because of the Gucci tech they have.
Still A french/Russian/Israeli alliance still won't have as much weight as an Indo-American alliance will have.
 
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F 18 Blok 3 will be good deal for IN. It's more advance than rafale ,US should offer F 35 for IAF instead of F 15 EX and deal will be signed in no time.
I have actual doubts on Shornet. The thing is fat and can't fly. A rafale can do rounds around it. A mixed buy if it could happen would be good though impractical. Basically 57 rafale's and another 18 ea 18g growlers. And f35b for the IN is a better idea than for the IAF.
F15 even though if it wins will lose out as an L1 bid because of how costly the plane is. So it's either the rafale or f21.
 
Or maybe before the last batch is delivered to ensure continued supplies of 8-10 aircrafts each year without a gap. But then everything comes back to availability of funding.

The IAF has waited for so long that such a small gap won't matter.

But yeah, we are poor.
 
Tejas will never replace MMRCA.
Tejas is and will stay a light fighter. A point defense jet with some more capacity.
MMRCA is intended to be a medium jet able to make deep strike. Tejas will never be able to do that (just because not study for that).
India need the two.

Not the current one but LCA mk2 will have more range, in 7-10 years there will be two more variants hence can wait.
 
Whatever we do, ensure that we do not license produce Fighter Jets. It just jacks up the price by 2.5 times and delays the delivery schedule.
The IAF has waited for so long that such a small gap won't matter.

But yeah, we are poor.
We are not exactly poor. We just waste resources on duplication, indecision and lack of unification between the three forces.