Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

[randomradio]

That is wrong. The price is F-35 a, then c and then b being the dearest. The f-35 is cheaper than the Rafale, but it isn't offered to India at this stage. The Super Hornet is also cheaper and better, but I still think the Rafale being an existing platform is more suitable.

5.5 by 26 = 211 euro or $223 m each

The F-35C airframe is more expensive 'cause it uses a different wing and landing gear than A and B. The smaller orderbook also does not help.

The SH may have lost due to other reasons, like fitting on the elevators and modifications required for the arrestor cables.

 

[Hydra]

That is wrong. The price is F-35 a, then c and then b being the dearest. The f-35 is cheaper than the Rafale, but it isn't offered to India at this stage. The Super Hornet is also cheaper and better, but I still think the Rafale being an existing platform is more suitable.

5.5 by 26 = 211 euro or $223 m each

Its not a logical decision , when we have an option to inducte a less expensive platform.

 

[Optimist]

The F-35C airframe is more expensive 'cause it uses a different wing and landing gear than A and B. The smaller orderbook also does not help.

The SH may have lost due to other reasons, like fitting on the elevators and modifications required for the arrestor cables.

Just to show you ...it's the engine and not the frame, that makes the F-35b the dearest.
www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Selected_Acquisition_Reports/FY_2019_SARS/20-F-0568_DOC_32_F-35_SAR_Dec_2019_Full.pdf
frame
F-35A (Conventional Take Off and Landing) URF - $57.4M (BY 2012)
F-35B (Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing) URF - $72.1M (BY 2012)
F-35C (Carrier Variant) URF - $72.3M (BY 2012)
engine
F-35A (Conventional Take Off and Landing) URF - $10.7M (BY 2012)
F-35B (Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing) URF - $26.3M (BY 2012)
F-35C (Carrier Variant) URF - $10.8M (BY 2012)

 

[Optimist]

Its not a logical decision , when we have an option to inducte a less expensive platform.

You have already made a 'political' (read as big bribe) decision getting the Rafale C. it will only make it worse if you don't get the Rafale M. Running 2 different platforms has high lifetime costs.
The other thing is that there may be some French Indian tech sharing?

 

[randomradio]

Just to show you ...it's the engine and not the frame, that makes the F-35b the dearest.
www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Selected_Acquisition_Reports/FY_2019_SARS/20-F-0568_DOC_32_F-35_SAR_Dec_2019_Full.pdf
frame
F-35A (Conventional Take Off and Landing) URF - $57.4M (BY 2012)
F-35B (Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing) URF - $72.1M (BY 2012)
F-35C (Carrier Variant) URF - $72.3M (BY 2012)
engine
F-35A (Conventional Take Off and Landing) URF - $10.7M (BY 2012)
F-35B (Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing) URF - $26.3M (BY 2012)
F-35C (Carrier Variant) URF - $10.8M (BY 2012)

Sure. But my argument was A is cheaper than C. I never spoke about B.

I'd actually argue that this time round, the B and C are very similar in price points. C's orderbook sucks after all.

 

[Optimist]

Sure. But my argument was A is cheaper than C. I never spoke about B.

I'd actually argue that this time round, the B and C are very similar in price points. C's orderbook sucks after all.

It looks like counting on your fingers didn't work. Try using your toes as well.
The B is 2012$15.4m dearer than the C. As you say, the A is the cheapest.

 

[randomradio]

Running 2 different platforms has high lifetime costs.

Doubt that. A common airframe is a good idea, but I doubt it's gonna be cheaper in this specific instance. Rafale comes at a premium cost along with a premium exchange rate, enough to compensate for the difference. And the lack of a competitive tender would mean the French can practically ask any price they want. This argument is only relevant if the customer controls the tech. India has a history of operating different types already.

Also, with NgAD coming into the picture soon, Boeing would have moved a huge chunk of the fleet support expenses to India to cut costs while making room for the NgAD in America. This would have dropped prices down for all SH customers.

Anyway it increasingly looks like the SH was dropped due to non-compliance with tech specs, a carrier problem.

 

[randomradio]

It looks like counting on your fingers didn't work. Try using your toes as well.
The B is 2012$15.4m dearer than the C

$30 Billion F-35 Deal Will See Prices Rise, Deliveries Dip | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Lockheed Martin and the Defense Department have reached a deal on Lots 15-17 of the F-35, with fewer jets and higher costs per plane.

www.airandspaceforces.com

For the airframe and mission equipment only, the Lot 15-17 cost of F-35s ranges “from $70.2 million to $69.9 million for the F-35A, $80.9 million to $78.3 million for the F-35B, and $90 to $89.3 million for the F-35C,” a Lockheed spokesperson said.

I'm sure 90M is more than 80M.

You can see that C was more expensive for quite a few years. And Lot 15-17 seem to be roughly on par.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II procurement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

B could end up being cheaper because it's gaining a lot of traction worldwide. At least the airframe is cheaper than C by $10M. With 20M vs 10M engine costs, we could see parity in costs.

 

[Optimist]

SAR prices are official. A lockheed spokesman may be wrong or misquoted. We will see lot 15 when the price is released.
Until then A, C and B is the price order. All are about 15m different, if you add them up.
2012$ you know what BY2012 means?
Frame and engine
A $68.1m
C $83.1m
B $98.4m

 

[Optimist]

They were the 2019 sar, here is the 2022 sar, released july 2023 and includes engine. It is the latest.

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Selected_Acquisition_Reports/FY_2022_SARS/F-35_SAR_Dec_2022_25_July_2023.pdf

Unit Cost Notes: The DoD average F-35 Unit Recurring Flyaway cost consists of the Hardware (Airframe, Vehicle Systems, Mission Systems, Engine, Engineering Change Order) costs over the life of the program. The URF assumes the benefit of 371 FMS aircraft and 547 International Partner Aircraft
U.S. F-35A (conventional takeoff and landing) URF: $71.5M (CY12$)
U.S. F-35B (short takeoff and vertical landing) URF: $100.4M (CY12$)
U.S. F-35C (carrier variant) URF: $87.6M (CY12$)

 

[Ashwin]

India communicates to France decision to procure 26 Rafale Marine jets​

The issue of procurement of the Rafale Marine jets is learnt to have figured during Defence Minister Rajnath Singh's recent visit to Paris​

India has formally communicated to France its decision to procure 26 naval variant of the Rafale fighter aircraft for the Indian Navy, kick-starting the procurement process under an intergovernmental framework, people familiar with the matter said on Friday.


In July, the Defence Ministry approved the purchase of the Rafale (marine) jets from France, primarily for deployment on board the indigenously built aircraft carrier INS Vikrant.

The issue of procurement of the Rafale Marine jets is learnt to have figured during Defence Minister Rajnath Singh's recent visit to Paris.


It is learnt that India has sent a letter of request to the French government formally communicating its decision to procure the jets from Dassault Aviation under the government-to-government framework.

The negotiations on pricing and other details are expected to take place after the defence ministry receives a response from the French side, the people familiar with the matter said.

Earlier this month, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier visited New Delhi and discussed various aspects of the proposed procurement by India.

The Defence Ministry in July said the procurement of the jets along with associated ancillary equipment, including weapon systems and spares, would be based on an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) and that price and other terms of purchase will be negotiated with the French government after taking into account all relevant aspects.


The Indian Air Force bought 36 aircraft in fly-away condition. There is a thinking in the IAF that it should go for at least two more squadrons of the Rafale jets.

The defence and strategic ties between India and France have been on an upswing in the last few years.

In July, India and France announced a raft of ground-breaking defence cooperation projects, including the joint development of jet and helicopter engines and construction of three Scorpene submarines for the Indian Navy.

The two strategic partners also expressed commitment to cooperate in the co-development and co-production of advanced defence technologies, including for the benefit of third countries.

 

[marich01]

The F-35C airframe is more expensive 'cause it uses a different wing and landing gear than A and B. The smaller orderbook also does not help.

The SH may have lost due to other reasons, like fitting on the elevators and modifications required for the arrestor cables.

More likely unkil switching off the software remotely if used against interest (read: pak) . And its entirely end of line near closing down production will little chance or motivation for OEM to upgrade further, which is big no for us. Actually all 3 usa offers are of such nature theoretically/practically. Maybe F15 a bit different.

 

[randomradio]

They were the 2019 sar, here is the 2022 sar, released july 2023 and includes engine. It is the latest.

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Selected_Acquisition_Reports/FY_2022_SARS/F-35_SAR_Dec_2022_25_July_2023.pdf

Unit Cost Notes: The DoD average F-35 Unit Recurring Flyaway cost consists of the Hardware (Airframe, Vehicle Systems, Mission Systems, Engine, Engineering Change Order) costs over the life of the program. The URF assumes the benefit of 371 FMS aircraft and 547 International Partner Aircraft
U.S. F-35A (conventional takeoff and landing) URF: $71.5M (CY12$)
U.S. F-35B (short takeoff and vertical landing) URF: $100.4M (CY12$)
U.S. F-35C (carrier variant) URF: $87.6M (CY12$)

That's not flyaway cost, that's cost over the life of the program.

The DoD average F-35 Unit Recurring Flyaway cost consists of the Hardware (Airframe, Vehicle Systems,Mission Systems, Engine, Engineering Change Order) costs over the life of the program.

It's not current costs. So the cost for B adds R&D cost of its engine.

 

[randomradio]

More likely unkil switching off the software remotely if used against interest (read: pak) . And its entirely end of line near closing down production will little chance or motivation for OEM to upgrade further, which is big no for us. Actually all 3 usa offers are of such nature theoretically/practically. Maybe F15 a bit different.

I doubt there's any truth to that kill switch story. It may be possible on the F-35, but unlikely on older jets. Especially when we want our own weapons installed.

In any case, yes, the SH is no longer an option even if we wanted it. So the French will definitely take us to the cleaners this time. I think the IN better clench their butts this time.

 

[marich01]

I doubt there's any truth to that kill switch story. It may be possible on the F-35, but unlikely on older jets. Especially when we want our own weapons installed.

In any case, yes, the SH is no longer an option even if we wanted it. So the French will definitely take us to the cleaners this time. I think the IN better clench their butts this time.

TEDBF itself will be largely rafale copy, or at least will try to integrate most functional aspects IAF/IN would like to incorporate imo. Change in radome cone model kind of made that hunch stronger. I mean even if ADA has their own idea, the user group would recommend something they are well accustomed into. We have seen it with some weapon systems.

As for the other part, I think there is some element of it given the net centric & satcom relied control system has become. I do not mean the hardware, just the software part. It is possible with the uav, so no reason it can not work with a jet.

 

[Herciv]

They were the 2019 sar, here is the 2022 sar, released july 2023 and includes engine. It is the latest.
https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading Room/Selected_Acquisition_Reports/FY_2022_SARS/F-35_SAR_Dec_2022_25_July_2023.pdf

The Program Acquisition Unit Cost (PAUC) divides the total acquisition expense, including research and development (R&D), procurement and military construction funds, by the total number of planned test and operational aircraft (2456)
Budget Estimate PB 2024 TYM$ 179.10
Compare with (3,42 (rafale alone) + 1,7 (ISE))/36 = 142 Meuros

Average Procurement Unit Cost (APUC). This divides the total F-35 procurement budget (i.e. not including R&D and Military Construction) by the number of operational aircraft actually to be fielded (2456)
Budget Estimate PB 2024 TYM$ 145.98
Compare with 3,42 (rafale alone)/36 = 95 Meuros

Romanian parliament approves record $6.5 billion purchase of US F-35 combat aircraft

The Romanian parliament has approved a request by the Ministry of Defense to purchase 32 F-35 multirole combat aircraft from the United States, its largest single military acquisition in the country’s history. The defense committees of the Romanian Chamber of Deputies and the Senate voted...

rmx.news

According to a document published by the parliamentary committees, these are “contracts awarded by the Government of Romania to the Government of the United States of America for Letter of Offer and Acceptance contracts, specific to the Foreign Military Sales Program, for 32 F-35 aircraft, engines, initial logistics support, training services, FMT flight simulators, air-to-air and air-to-ground munitions, respectively, for an estimated value of $6.5 (€6.9) million, excluding VAT.”

 

[Herciv]

That is wrong. The price is F-35 a, then c and then b being the dearest. The f-35 is cheaper than the Rafale, but it isn't offered to India at this stage. The Super Hornet is also cheaper and better, but I still think the Rafale being an existing platform is more suitable.

5.5 by 26 = 211 euro or $223 m each

COmpare to (€6.9) million, excluding VAT. for 32 F-35 in Romania
6.9/32 = 215 euro each F-35A ....

 

[randomradio]

TEDBF itself will be largely rafale copy, or at least will try to integrate most functional aspects IAF/IN would like to incorporate imo. Change in radome cone model kind of made that hunch stronger. I mean even if ADA has their own idea, the user group would recommend something they are well accustomed into. We have seen it with some weapon systems.

As for the other part, I think there is some element of it given the net centric & satcom relied control system has become. I do not mean the hardware, just the software part. It is possible with the uav, so no reason it can not work with a jet.

The Rafale M we are going for now will become outdated very quickly, if it's an F4. Its foundational configuration is from 2006-12. Or we will have to pay a bomb just to upgrade it. The problem is the French do not have simpler upgrade options like the Americans or Indians typically have. TEDBF's avionics could end up a generation ahead in comparison.

 

[Hydra]

You have already made a 'political' (read as big bribe) decision getting the Rafale C.

Yeas.

it will only make it worse if you don't get the Rafale M. Running 2 different platforms has high lifetime costs.

No, it is not. IN & IAF shared same type aircraft only once, that because we are bound to buy a Russian aircraft along with Gorshkov.

The other thing is that there may be some French Indian tech sharing?

We yet to get engine deal. which was, i guess a part of original 36 Rafale deal.

 

[Sathya]

The Rafale M we are going for now will become outdated very quickly, if it's an F4. Its foundational configuration is from 2006-12. Or we will have to pay a bomb just to upgrade it. The problem is the French do not have simpler upgrade options like the Americans or Indians typically have. TEDBF's avionics could end up a generation ahead in comparison.

Rafale M will be down the line of orders right?

When and what version are going to get?