Narendra Modi govt clears Rs 6,500-crore missile (NASAMS) deal with America

[pachawry]

this is a working proven system, mate. supposed to believe is not the point. it has worked in simulations and actual tests. now take your 200kgVs720kg argument and turn it around on it's head. quite obviously it will involve a booster of some sort. even if you add that weight to AMRAAM weight, the advantages of the 200+boosterVs720 becomes quite obvious and also quite obvious why it is preferred. cause it's better.

what if the chinese develop a radar jammer which targets the akash batteries, specifically their operating band ? won't having this US system save the day ? rather than lose it moan and then realise that we should have another one in stock ? i would. air defence of Delhi during war is going to save the whole defence apparatus of india. Delhi isn't any other location in India defence wise. India can raise another Gurgaon or bangalore today. It can't raise a Delhi so easily.

Indian scientists are not ponga pandits to make overweight missiles which could simply be matched by other missiles of lower weight. Akash is a RAMJET which means that it has much higher endurance than AMRAAM or other rocket motor missile. AMRAAM might have range of 20km or so at best whereas the 30 km is the maximum distance for easier target like cruise missile. Akash has NEZ of 30km against highly maneuverable planes and can chase them down if the planes are within that range when being fired.

Next, jamming of only Akash radar is not meaningful. Radars have wide operating band and can change frequency within it. You are only arguing for the sake of arguing. Moreover, other shorter range QRSAM will also be kept in addition to Akash. In BMD role, two layers of PAD and AAD will be kept. Additional layers of S300 or S400 will also be added. With all these protection, what is NASAMS doing?

 

[randomradio]

exactly. this very well could be one of those special weapon deals which will get automatic approval of the US Congress. same will be done on indian side and voila monsieur, we have these protecting delhi and every single thing it entails.

these are excellent stuff. see @Kvasir s explanations. only thing is, this is one more in the long line of QRSAMs. it's actually a strategic decision which makes sense. if a location is defended with 3 -5 different types of operational SAM, that whole mass attack theory can be actually taken care of, so yeah, spending money on different types of proven SAMs always is a good idea.

I always assumed Delhi will be defended by Indian systems or at least stuff we have significant control over, like SPYDER. But a single location won't be defended by different SAMs of the same class. If the NASAMS has been chosen to protect Delhi, then there won't be any SPYDER or DRDO QRSAM around Delhi.

 

[randomradio]

the advantages of the 200+boosterVs720 becomes quite obvious and also quite obvious why it is preferred. cause it's better.

You are underestimating the Akash by a lot.

Except for the problem of a longer reaction time, the Akash can do everything the AMRAAM can and more, only because it's an older missile. But the AMRAAM cannot do everything Akash can. As for the range, the Akash's range of 25Km is in a fully powered mode. But it can continue to cruise beyond that range.

 

[randomradio]

Next, jamming of only Akash radar is not meaningful. Radars have wide operating band and can change frequency within it. You are only arguing for the sake of arguing. Moreover, other shorter range QRSAM will also be kept in addition to Akash. In BMD role, two layers of PAD and AAD will be kept. Additional layers of S300 or S400 will also be added. With all these protection, what is NASAMS doing?

Option 1:
6: AAA
5: SPYDER or DRDO QRSAM or NASAMS
4: Akash Mk1/Mk1S/Mk2
3: Barak/Barak 8ER
2: XRSAM
1: BMD

Option 2:
3: AAA
2: SPYDER or DRDO QRSAM or NASAMS
1: S-400

So Delhi is going to need this entire layered system. Akash can be skipped though. But NASAMS is necessary for both options.

 

[pachawry]

Option 1:
6: AAA
5: SPYDER or DRDO QRSAM or NASAMS
4: Akash Mk1/Mk1S/Mk2
3: Barak/Barak 8ER
2: XRSAM
1: BMD

Option 2:
3: AAA
2: SPYDER or DRDO QRSAM or NASAMS
1: S-400

So Delhi is going to need this entire layered system. Akash can be skipped though. But NASAMS is necessary for both options.

Explain to me how is SPYDER/NASAMS better than Akash? In wha parameters does Akash lag behind? As far as I see, Akash is way superior to any of these BVRAAM converted to SAMs

Also, the way you skipped BMD is surprising. Explain why is BMD not important when protecting an internal city? WHich is a bigger threat to a city or target deep inside border? Ballistic missiles, planes or cruise missiles?

 

[randomradio]

Explain to me how is SPYDER/NASAMS better than Akash? In wha parameters does Akash lag behind? As far as I see, Akash is way superior to any of these BVRAAM converted to SAMs

I have already explained it. Akash and NASAMS are not in competition with each other, they are complementary systems. You can't have one without the other.

The Akash doesn't have a good enough reaction time to classify as a QRSAM. But it does have advantages at greater range and altitude. It's simply a system in a different class. And the NASAMS can defend against more targets at any one time. For example, the NASAMS battery can defend against as many as 72 targets, while the IAF's squadron can defend against 8 targets and the IA's group can defend against 16 targets.

NASAMS's equivalent would be the DRDO QRSAM. While a NASAM battery has 72 missiles, the DRDO's QRSAM has 96 missiles. OTOH, an Akash squadron has 24 missiles and an Akash group has 48 missiles.

You would actually operate Akash and NASAMS together as one unit.

Also, the way you skipped BMD is surprising. Explain why is BMD not important when protecting an internal city? WHich is a bigger threat to a city or target deep inside border? Ballistic missiles, planes or cruise missiles?

S-400 is capable of BMD at the same level as the AAD/PDV combo.

It's in fact a combination of Akash Mk2, Barak ER, AAD and PDV.

 

[Unnamed]

Indian scientists are not ponga pandits to make overweight missiles which could simply be matched by other missiles of lower weight. Akash is a RAMJET which means that it has much higher endurance than AMRAAM or other rocket motor missile. AMRAAM might have range of 20km or so at best whereas the 30 km is the maximum distance for easier target like cruise missile. Akash has NEZ of 30km against highly maneuverable planes and can chase them down if the planes are within that range when being fired.

Next, jamming of only Akash radar is not meaningful. Radars have wide operating band and can change frequency within it. You are only arguing for the sake of arguing. Moreover, other shorter range QRSAM will also be kept in addition to Akash. In BMD role, two layers of PAD and AAD will be kept. Additional layers of S300 or S400 will also be added. With all these protection, what is NASAMS doing?

who is saying indian scientists are ponga pandits ? I'm not. do you know what the DRDO is doing in the future ? it is putting the astra with a booster in an SAM system. what they are trying to do tomorrow is what Delhi is trying to buy today. why would they do that if they thought Akash Mk2 will be sufficient ? they (DRDO) obviously do not agree with you.

secondly, the post above by @randomradio spares me the whole trouble of putting into words why is this SAM is better than Akash. and why it is needed as well.

 

[Unnamed]

You are underestimating the Akash by a lot.

Except for the problem of a longer reaction time, the Akash can do everything the AMRAAM can and more, only because it's an older missile. But the AMRAAM cannot do everything Akash can. As for the range, the Akash's range of 25Km is in a fully powered mode. But it can continue to cruise beyond that range.

I honestly don't know much about akash except that it's an 80's tech and carries it's baggage and advantages compared to modern products.

 

[Unnamed]

I always assumed Delhi will be defended by Indian systems or at least stuff we have significant control over, like SPYDER. But a single location won't be defended by different SAMs of the same class. If the NASAMS has been chosen to protect Delhi, then there won't be any SPYDER or DRDO QRSAM around Delhi.

probably, but that will be decided on a strategic level and operational ease. should be. this is basically an off the shelf purchase. as long as it works and we're not buying in numbers and hence try to make it here, i don't think we will worry about what is inside the system. as long as it works well when tested regularly.

 

[pachawry]

it is putting the astra with a booster in an SAM system.

This is something I agree with. I am always a proponent of reverse engineering as it is the easiest path in making anything quickly.

secondly, the post above by @randomradio spares me the whole trouble of putting into words why is this SAM is better than Akash. and why it is needed as well.

Randomradio says exaggerated things which generally don't make sense. He is always filled with some vague figures of batteries, squadrons etc rather than specifying the absolute requirements to achieve objectives. But your explanation of reverse engineering or studying the system is very valid and I have no more questions to ask.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Randomradio says exaggerated things which generally don't make sense. He is always filled with some vague figures of batteries, squadrons etc rather than specifying the absolute requirements to achieve objectives. But your explanation of reverse engineering or studying the system is very valid and I have no more questions to ask.

I take strong exception to your objections. @randomradio is a born optimist whose optimism keeps increasing by the day . He also believes in acche din.

Is it a crime go be optimistic ? Why are we as a people so pessimistic ?

Our friend here doesn't seem to have a measure of randomradio . One can understand that he's a newbie . Could you please advise our friend on what positive thinking means and what's it to be randomradio ?
@Bali78

 

[Bali78]

I take strong exception to your objections. @randomradio is a born optimist whose optimism keeps increasing by the day . He also believes in acche din.

Is it a crime go be optimistic ? Why are we as a people so pessimistic ?

Our friend here doesn't seem to have a measure of randomradio . One can understand that he's a newbie . Could you please advise our friend on what positive thinking means and what's it to be randomradio ?
@Bali78

I completely agree with you . It’s the optimists who make it a better world!!

 

[randomradio]

I honestly don't know much about akash except that it's an 80's tech and carries it's baggage and advantages compared to modern products.

The missile airframe and propulsion system is from the 80s. Everything else is significantly more modern. But only the Akash NG will bring the SAM to current world standards in terms of radar capability.

 

[randomradio]

This is something I agree with. I am always a proponent of reverse engineering as it is the easiest path in making anything quickly.


Randomradio says exaggerated things which generally don't make sense. He is always filled with some vague figures of batteries, squadrons etc rather than specifying the absolute requirements to achieve objectives. But your explanation of reverse engineering or studying the system is very valid and I have no more questions to ask.

Lol. So you are basically saying you don't know what I'm talking about.

And no, we don't do reverse engineering as a matter of policy. Reverse engineering is bad, it keeps you backward.

 

[randomradio]

I take strong exception to your objections. @randomradio is a born optimist whose optimism keeps increasing by the day . He also believes in acche din.

Is it a crime go be optimistic ? Why are we as a people so pessimistic ?

Our friend here doesn't seem to have a measure of randomradio . One can understand that he's a newbie . Could you please advise our friend on what positive thinking means and what's it to be randomradio ?
@Bali78

I am actually pessimistic about the Akash ever achieving QRSAM capabilities in fact.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I am actually pessimistic about the Akash ever achieving QRSAM capabilities in fact.

You're not pessimistic . You never can be . You're being realistic for a change .

 

[randomradio]

You're not pessimistic . You never can be . You're being realistic for a change .

I'm always a realist.

 

[pachawry]

I am actually pessimistic about the Akash ever achieving QRSAM capabilities in fact.

Akash is having upgraded radar and processing unit. It can't be simply cosnsidered as useless 80s technology. QRSAM is meant to fire during mobility and it is based on the Astra missile which also fires when plane is mobile.

 

[randomradio]

Akash is having upgraded radar and processing unit. It can't be simply cosnsidered as useless 80s technology. QRSAM is meant to fire during mobility and it is based on the Astra missile which also fires when plane is mobile.

I don't think you can keep track of a discussion. Did I say Akash is useless?

 

[turkish]

After India decided to procure $1-billion National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System-II (NASAMS-II) safeguard crucial facilities in Capital New Delhi on recommendation of Washington, comes another shocker of the deal which is likely to be discussed in India-US 2+2 Dialogue in Delhi on September 6 that of India purchasing Tomahawk subsonic cruise missile for Indian Navy as reported in Economic Times.

Tomahawk will be procured for deployment on frontline warships and submarines against surface targets according to the report. If a deal on Tomahawk does take place then Indian Navy will be the third operator after United States Navy and Royal Navy to induct them in its service.

Tomahawk missiles which made its debut in first Gulf War in 1991 have been part of every military operation US Military has been involved in, since then. Legendary Cruise missile system has gone through several rounds of major upgrades and major improvement over the years and Tomahawk Block IV is presently in production and will continue to remain the mainstay of the offensive capacities of the United States Navy for decades to come.

Tomahawk sale to India will come as a shocker to many close Nato allies of the United States of America who in past have been denied the sale of the missile system by Washington. Yes, Tomahawk has been part of Nato offenses, but operated from US platforms.

Government ditching Nirbhay?

If India does procure Tomahawk subsonic cruise missiles from the United States of America does that mean that indigenous development of Nirbhay subsonic cruise missile by DRDO has been dropped? While there is no clarity on the program yet but repeated delays and increasing Chinese naval activities could be the reason why the government has decided to procure them from abroad while development of Nirbhay continues in India.

Out of Five Trials of Nirbhay cruise missile by DRDO in last 6 years, only Two trials have been successful and development of only Army variant had taken place while development of Naval variant was yet to start. Tomahawk could be interim purchase until Naval variant of Nirbhay cruise missile is developed by DRDO in near future.After NASAMS Suprise, Modi Government to buy Tomahawk Cruise Missiles? – Indian Defence Research Wing