Off-Topic Chit-Chat

India has always been a secular nation of intensely religious people.
I differ. Secular usually means being unrelated to religion or faith or 'God'. Like tomatoes are secular. Indian laws atleast are and were always tip-toeing religion. Within Indian government or legal or political context, AFAIK, the attempted or advertised 'secularism' is not favouring any religion, especially majority religion. It is not exactly same as devoid of religion.
 
May I request you to comment upon, how much more intense the current polarization is as compared with that of early 90s. I believe you are one of the folks here who were in their teens or youth years in that time.

Sure you may.

In the 90s I was graduating, getting married, getting a job, and having our first kid in that order.

I was surprised that you thought that the Babri Masjid thing was a north India phenomenon.

The difference in the 90s was that the Muslims were still a powerful counter-weight and seen as the aggressors. Hostile. Even anti-national.

People are not convinced of any of the 3 anymore on a pan-community basis. Sure no one has any illusions about the general thinking and what the community tends to do when their numbers rise. But the rise of the aggressive Hindu right wing and the fact that till now the Muslims have not responded, has to a large extent flipped the perception now about who is the aggressor, who the bully, who the anti-national element.

While in the 90s no one saw any element of the Hindu wrath as wrong or not reactionary, certainly not any Hindu, today there is a large section of Hindus who are themselves not convinced, and truth be told, pretty disgusted.

That is the essence of the difference.

So yes, when you have the majority of India split, you have polarization never seen before.

Cause it has now ceased to be communal. And become an ideological battle for India.

Cheers, Doc
 
As far as I know it was not just few folks died in police action but many student did self-immolation during protests. Few people I know tell me that long after VP Singh government, the protests slogans still remained on walls of offices and homes. I remember reading one in early 2000 with something on the line "VP's Mandal Bidi Bundle" on the walls of a railway station.
Correct. Around 30 students died due to self immolation and 60 due to firing. In my hometown, 5 students died in police firing and the sad part was none of them were part of the agitation and just got caught in crossfire.

It's difficult to understand today, but 80s and early 90s were toughest period for Indian youths. In many states, govt jobs were the only source of employment and when that was taken out, upper cast students just lost hope and hence the reaction.
 
I differ. Secular usually means being unrelated to religion or faith or 'God'. Like tomatoes are secular. Indian laws atleast are and were always tip-toeing religion. Within Indian government or legal or political context, AFAIK, the attempted or advertised 'secularism' is not favouring any religion, especially majority religion. It is not exactly same as devoid of religion.

That has always been Indian secularism.

And not just since 1947.

We do not need to give up our faith or its practice to be secular.

Caste based reservations and the absence of a uniform civil code are the two biggest hurdles to being truly secular.

One panders to Hindus, the other to Muslims.

Cheers, Doc
 
That has always been Indian secularism.

And not just since 1947.

We do not need to give up our faith or its practice to be secular.

Caste based reservations and the absence of a uniform civil code are the two biggest hurdles to being truly secular.

One panders to Hindus, the other to Muslims.

Cheers, Doc
IMHO, this pseudo-secularism while Constitution and religious texts remained joined at spine create situations where legislation and enforcement of laws become hard or sometimes impossible. IMHO, we as a nation will do better if we extract the essence of our laws and use them as the ground rules of what citizens in India can and can not do. I will prefer if it is minimalistic in nature and beyond that its up to people and community to adapt what they feel is moral according to their own conventions. A part of our problem is that we try to legislate morality. Its immoral to make fun of religious sentiments of any community but I believe making it illegal puts you in worse situation.
 
IMHO, this pseudo-secularism while Constitution and religious texts remained joined at spine create situations where legislation and enforcement of laws become hard or sometimes impossible. IMHO, we as a nation will do better if we extract the essence of our laws and use them as the ground rules of what citizens in India can and can not do. I will prefer if it is minimalistic in nature and beyond that its up to people and community to adapt what they feel is moral according to their own conventions. A part of our problem is that we try to legislate morality. Its immoral to make fun of religious sentiments of any community but I believe making it illegal puts you in worse situation.

It is not pseudo-Secularism just because it does not match definitions in Merriam Webster or Oxford dictionaries, which reflect civilizations much newer than ours, and who waded bloodily through the separation of Church and State in their own time and space.

The Indian state has no business administering Hindu temples. But it does. It is something that should have been looked at and addressed when we were doing away with feudalism and the maharajas.

Indian secularism is based on tolerance of all faiths, and equality of all Indians regardless of which they practice, not the banishment or divorce of faith.

Legislating in India is a means to making sure there is only one mob - and that is the state. It works - as long as the state does not become a partisan mob.

Cheers, Doc
 
It is not pseudo-Secularism just because it does not match definitions in Merriam Webster or Oxford dictionaries, which reflect civilizations much newer than ours, and who waded bloodily through the separation of Church and State in their own time and space.

The Indian state has no business administering Hindu temples. But it does. It is something that should have been looked at and addressed when we were doing away with feudalism and the maharajas.

Indian secularism is based on tolerance of all faiths, and equality of all Indians regardless of which they practice, not the banishment or divorce of faith.

Legislating in India is a means to making sure there is only one mob - and that is the state. It works - as long as the state does not become a partisan mob.

Cheers, Doc
The problem, IMHO, is this kind of secular yet not secular creates a fertile ground for legislative and legal paralysis. Even common sense decisions are hard to take. You want to support poors but you cann't support poors from say upper caste by affirmative action. Why? Because you have chosen the definition of poor based upon caste or may be religion. You want to ensure that rights of women in property distribution need to be protected but you cann't because that goes against definition of tolerance for religion. Here I believe we are wrong and perhaps west has the right answer. There are ground rules of living in a country which are minimalistic; anything apart from that does not have a legal restriction but social taboos with real repercussions.
 
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There are ground rules of living in a country which are minimalistic; anything apart from that does not have a legal restriction but social taboos with real repercussions.

Legislating in India is a means to making sure there is only one mob - and that is the state. It works - as long as the state does not become a partisan mob.

You touched on both the points I had already raised - uniform civil code (no scope for Sharia or any other religious laws on civil matters) and caste based reservation (versus purely need based).

When it comes to religion, and religious practice and customs, the state or the judiciary should have no role to play and only intervene when something is going against the law and affecting the rights and well-being of a citizen.

Which is what Indian secularism by and large is. Barring episodes of overreach.

Like the SC passing a judgment on the definition of Hindutva.

Cheers, Doc
 
So yes, when you have the majority of India split, you have polarization never seen before.
This IMHO, is the crux of your thought in this context.

I believe, that this polarization and split is neither new nor unprecedented or deeper. And I have good reasons to believe in this. Indian majority or religious majority, ie Hindus, are not as cohesive or ideologically combined. Economic interests and handouts often have split the majority into parts and combinations which are otherwise hard to imagine. Things like M-Y equation in UP. Or Lingustic divide. I think there is not exactly a coherent or uniform ideology among majority, neither in past and nor in present.
 
This IMHO, is the crux of your thought in this context.

I believe, that this polarization and split is neither new nor unprecedented or deeper. And I have good reasons to believe in this. Indian majority or religious majority, ie Hindus, are not as cohesive or ideologically combined. Economic interests and handouts often have split the majority into parts and combinations which are otherwise hard to imagine. Things like M-Y equation in UP. Or Lingustic divide. I think there is not exactly a coherent ideology among majority.

When your response to my post is based on the Hindu whole or parts thereof, you completely missed the crux I was trying to make, which was the Muslims.

In the 90s vs now, 25 years on, the two Muslim communities are very different.

You need to have lived in India in the 90s and now, and seen the Muslims close up, to understand.

Cheers, Doc
 
You touched on both the points I had already raised - uniform civil code (no scope for Sharia or any other religious laws on civil matters) and caste based reservation (versus purely need based).
I will go and include things like anti-blasphemy laws. This is where I believe we are wrong. We are trying to legislate morality which will not work and will have chilling effect on those who have genuine thoughts.
 
When your response to my post is based on the Hindu whole or parts thereof, you completely missed the crux I was trying to make, which was the Muslims.
I thought by 'majority of India' you meant Hindus being Ideologically polarised on choosing or not choosing right wing leadership. Did you mean something else? My apologies on misunderstanding.
 
I will go and include things like anti-blasphemy laws. This is where I believe we are wrong. We are trying to legislate morality which will not work and will have chilling effect on those who have genuine thoughts.

That is inescapable in India.

Eventually it protects more than it controls and stifles.

Because we are like that ....

Religion should be a no-go area in public discourse. As it is in the West.

Cheers, Doc
 
I thought by 'majority of India' you meant Hindus being Ideologically polarised on choosing or not choosing right wing leadership. Did you mean something else? My apologies on misunderstanding.

Hindus are not polarized between choosing or not choosing right wing leadership.

Hindus are polarized between how they see themselves and those around them.

And it is those around them (namely the largest other, the Muslims), that has had a significant role to play in the evolving Hindu thought process.

India polarized against aggressive, hostile, and oftentimes anti-national Muslim Indians in the 90s was degrees lesser in polarization than Hindus believing India belongs to them versus Hindus believing that India belongs to Indians, in 2018, in the run-up to 2019.

This is NOT about communalism or Hindu-Muslim. Its is MUCH bigger.

It is about ownership of India.

Cheers, Doc
 
Religion should be a no-go area in public discourse. As it is in the West.
This is where I believe I disagree with you. Religion should not be a no-go area in public discourse. In west, I religion is very often dissected and criticized in public discourse and protection of religion by state is thoroughly looked down upon. It still forms a major part of political system but it is both legally and socially acceptable to question religion.
 
This is where I believe I disagree with you. Religion should not be a no-go area in public discourse. In west, I religion is very often dissected and criticized in public discourse and protection of religion by state is thoroughly looked down upon. It still forms a major part of political system but it is both legally and socially acceptable to question religion.

I do not know where that happens.

As an Indian I have many friends and professional colleagues in the West. We talk about a lot besides work.

We see your news feeds (CNN).

We see your political debates, and Presidential races.

We read your opeds.

I have never seen what you are claiming.

Maybe I need to live there. But honestly, even under Trump, you guys are WAY more politically correct than Indians could be in another 500 years.

@Nilgiri @RATHORE ??

Cheers, Doc
 
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I have never seen what you are claiming.

Maybe I need to live there. But honestly, even under Trump, you guys are WAY more politically correct than Indians could be in another 500 years.
Yes, politicians are politically correct because they want to keep the votes of still a largely religious caucus. That said, among academic, public and even in mainstream media lampooning religion is a norm. Here are some examples :-

Religulous (2008) | WatchDocumentaries.com

Saturday Night Live

BBC God Delusion

It is noteworthy these debates, programming and documentaries will be illegal within Indian framework.
 
Hindus are not polarized between choosing or not choosing right wing leadership.

Hindus are polarized between how they see themselves and those around them.

And it is those around them (namely the largest other, the Muslims), that has had a significant role to play in the evolving Hindu thought process.

India polarized against aggressive, hostile, and oftentimes anti-national Muslim Indians in the 90s was degrees lesser in polarization than Hindus believing India belongs to them versus Hindus believing that India belongs to Indians, in 2018, in the run-up to 2019.

This is NOT about communalism or Hindu-Muslim. Its is MUCH bigger.

It is about ownership of India.

Cheers, Doc
Thats interesting. I see your point. However, do you believe that polarization on lines like caste or economic class is not being to a much greater extent than this religious identity of India. That polarization is very much present for more than 6 decades now. And when pulled along multiple axises of religious identity, caste or economic class, along which one will the thoughts of people be most streched? I think it will be caste or economic class. But then thats just me.
 
Thats interesting. I see your point. However, do you believe that polarization on lines like caste or economic class is not being to a much greater extent than this religious identity of India. That polarization is very much present for more than 6 decades now. And when pulled along multiple axises of religious identity, caste or economic class, along which one will the thoughts of people be most streched? I think it will be caste or economic class. But then thats just me.

No, nothing comes close to the polarization of who India belongs to.

Everything else is secondary, because that is the core of India.

Which is under attack.

Cheers, Doc