Off-Topic Chit-Chat
- Thread starter BMD
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Yeah i gave up after seeing the dates. Cant make in even if I tried lol
I have been thinking about it for sometime. Actually more for a systems like Nasr. Issue is, I am missing a lot of data. Data like accelaration or effective exhaust velocity. Now, at one time, I tried to assume the range but then the range is huge. A US sprint missile can accelarate at 100g !
If we can make some reasonable assumptions, then it is entire possible to predict if S-400 is even capable of taking out a missile like Nasr while it is going up. If that can happen, then Pakistan's answer to Cold Start will be zero.
There is another possiblity. A fighter jet based Boost phase interception. Because Pakistan is not exactly huge --for example compared to russia-- and very near to us, it can be a possibility as well. Once India achieves an air dominance, a group of AWACS and fast fighters equipped with right kind of missile can take out a ballistic missile while it was boosting. This was tested by USA sometimes back (U.S. Military: A Successful Boost-Phase Intercept). It will require perhaps a bit more resources but it is doable. It will be imperative for us to achieve an airspace domiance and complete destruction of Pakistan's few SAMs. The reason is, even though in boost phase a missile is accelarating, it is never maneuvering. It cannot maneuver because it will loose massive amount of energy in this phase. Further we may be able to optimize by good human intelligence network. If we know roughly where Pakistan keeps its nuclear assets or how its movements are based on, then it will be even easier.
Last is opportunity in my mind is space based boost phase intercept. It will require more R and D. We do not have outer space treaty with Pakistan. We can station few intercepting missile permanently in space. Together with early launch detection satellite, it can sent intercepters from the orbit itself to intercept a missile while it is ascending. This missile may not even need an explosive, it can be completely kinectic energy based. Basically MARVs sitting in orbit permanently and hitting a missile as soon as their launch is detected.
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And how long do you think that'd take to develop & deploy? It's been nearly 2 decades & we haven't still inducted the Phase - I yet.
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Well we are in close proximity to the launch sites, that's a plus to intercept a Missile. Also, in Boost phase technically it is where the missile is at its slowest speed, has larger radar CS. aslo "the large early stages are not only much easier to track, they are also full of generally very explosive propellants. Furthermore, fragments and debris from a missile destroyed in boost phase will not pepper the target area as they do in terminal-phase intercepts". The problems being "The ballistic path in this phase is also characterized by a more uneven flight, due to the shifts in acceleration when a stage burns out and separates and the next stage ignites. This also requires a more discerning seeker, as there can be times during boost phase when a discarded stage and the missile are both in the seeker's field of vision." Also a very Quick reaction time.
The S400 has to be deployed but I don't think it has been made to work in a Networked environment, as it will need to detect launches which can only happen through spaces based asses which have IR tech to detect launces even with heavy cloud cover and respond within seconds. The launch and intercept has to be within seconds. anything more and the window of opportunity is lost. I believe if we are able to design the BMD accordingly it will serve its purpose better than S-400.
For boost phase interception, you either need lasers or satellites with interceptors.
Phase II will be quick. DRDO says 4 years after flight testing begins for the missiles. As for DEW, DRDO said it will take 15 years back in 2011, so about 2030 for that.
Gauging by the fact that neither the US nor any other country has deployed Lasers or even Satellite based HTK weapons for BMD, asuming that it's WiP, what makes you so confident that DRDO, given its track record can develop & deploy such Laser systems by 2030?
What about Phase - I? Why isn't it deployed? One did hear murmurs/ rumours of it being deployed to protect Bombay & Delhi? Any truth to it?
We have been doing pretty okay with lasers. We expect to see the deployment of vehicle mounted lasers first through FICV and FRCV programs in the mid 2020s.
India gets a step closer to laser weaponry as DRDO successfully tests laser system
Phase 1 is being deployed. Construction of early warning radar sites have already begun in three locations.
The rumour for Mumbai and Delhi was for the AAD as mentioned by the DRDO Chief in 2012, but the IAF wanted it to be tested even further, including the PDV.
US has indeed done experiments on boost phase interception using Fighter based missiles.
First air-to-air missile defense system intercepts boosting missile
I think this is something we can also attempt, for likes of NASR at least.
Also, there is sprint missile, one of the fastest accelerating one developed in 1960s. This can intercept a boosting missile in close range. Basically destroying a Nasr.
I guess, India needs to develop right guidance system to take out a boosting rocket in the time window of 2-3 minutes. Given a rocket cannot maneuver in boost phase, only thing left is to identify and track the rocket and have a missile which can sustain high acceleration and velocity needed.
The problem with using missiles in chase mode is you need interceptors with ridiculous range and speed and you need aircraft always in the air ready to intercept any BM. It's unrealistic. People have experimented on it and given up.
Not for defeating battle field nuke missiles like Nasr. Nasr's range is 60 KM. A 100-150 KM range BVR is not unheard of. Even better, if you are firing from a height.
The K-100 can be modified for this role. But BPI requires a lot of luck, which means you need to be flying within range of the BM. And the window of opportunity against most MRBMs is less than a minute, after which the missile would have accelerated and climbed way too much for it to be intercepted with something like the K-100.
For example, even at an average speed of 1Km/sec, the BM would have crossed 30Km altitude in 30 seconds. 1Km/s is SRBM speed. MRBMs are actually much faster than that. So if you are 30Km away from the target, and you plan to hit the missile at co-altitude, say 15Km, your interceptor will need to cover the 30Km range really quickly, ie before the missile has achieved a 15Km altitude, which is probably 20 seconds or less. So your missile has to do 1.5Km/sec or mach 4.5. But if you are just 60Km away, your interceptor now has to do 3Km/sec or mach 9. Now, if you are 150Km away, which is a pretty normal distance between India and Pakistan, your interceptor should do 7.5Km/s or mach 22.5. Note that in these scenarios you are actually firing the interceptor as the BM is launched. In reality, it will take a long time to detect and acquire the BM in the first place.
Now if you require the interceptor to not just catch up with the BM, but also give chase, then intercept speeds has to be significantly higher. There's no point getting into a running race with an MRBM that's designed to do mach 18, it will leave you behind easily.
Beyond 30Km altitude, you will need significantly more capable interceptors than just the K-100. So it's likely your missile will cost more than the MRBM itself, making it financially unfeasible for the defender. An interceptor can be fired only after the BM has been launched, so the BM always has a head start.
That's why when it comes to BPI, you need lasers, or satellite based interceptors.
At best, you can use AAM based BPI against TBMs that manage only 25-30Km altitude at mach 2-3, like the Nasr. Lasers mounted on the FRCV or dedicated trucks will be able to shoot down TBMs like Nasr in any stage of flight, with each interception costing just a few hundred rupees, with many more to spare. Basically, a viable missile based BPI against MRBMs or higher is better relegated to works of fiction.
The Americans are experimenting with the SM-3 Block II, which is a family of surface launched missiles. But even these missiles have to be really close to the target to work, combined with early detection. These missiles are extremely expensive. By the time we develop it and afford it, lasers will have become viable.
