PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Rajput Lion]

Yes, they are sticking to the schedule.

But our jet would need 3-4 years extra due to MKIzation.

Even J-20 with WS-15 would take minimum 3-4 years to mature as a combat platform.

We dropped out 'cause the Russians were taking us for a ride. Pressure from the US was present too.

AM Varthaman gave green light after reviewing every aspect of the JV and the plane itself. IAF dropped out because their first priority was to acquire minimum 114 Rafales(high-end western fighter) first and foremost. After the MKI experience, they weren't looking to have another pool of 200 high-end Russian plane with less than stellar service.

Anyways, we've already debated this issue, so no point in going around in circles, IMO. I still believe moving out of the JV was not only a mistake but a blunder.

 

[randomradio]

Even J-20 with WS-15 would take minimum 3-4 years to mature as a combat platform.

We don't know where the engine is today, but I hope you are right though.

AM Varthaman gave green light after reviewing every aspect of the JV and the plane itself. IAF dropped out because their first priority was to acquire minimum 114 Rafales(high-end western fighter) first and foremost. After the MKI experience, they weren't looking to have another pool of 200 high-end Russian plane with less than stellar service.

Anyways, we've already debated this issue, so no point in going around in circles, IMO. I still believe moving out of the JV was not only a mistake but a blunder.

The JV wasn't a JV, it was just a license production deal of a model the Russians will develop and we pay for. To make things worse, instead of a new design, the IAF was asked to opt for the same T-50 airframe. The Russians argued a new design will take 15 years versus 8 years for the T-50. So that already made the program impractical.

Even after we signed a deal for engine ToT for Brahmos, the Russians later cancelled it. So MoD decided to derisk the program completely. The option was to pay $3.7B and get nothing except license production, or just MKIze the Su-57 in the future at considerably less money and then license produce it. So that same money was instead transferred to the AMCA program.

The IAF was also disappointed with HAL, they had no capability to contribute to its development. So when the IAF brought DRDO in, they claimed they can develop an equal or better jet. And that's how MCA became AMCA. The JV died a long time ago, they simply kept it alive due to politics. HAL was the main cause of killing it. From 50-50, it dropped down to 25-75 and later 15-85. So it ceased being a JV. HAL argued that they can slowly raise it to 50-50 over time, but that's just avionics. And that's via price gouging the IAF by overpricing the avionics to meet the 50-50 quota.

Varthaman looked into many other aspects, like capability, industrial participation and so on, not HAL's scam aspect or the possibility of the Russians not fulfilling contractual obligations.

Right now, there are still two decent options. One is to just outright buy 2-3 MKIzed squadrons or just license produce 6 of the same. It doesn't change anything in terms of bringing in capability from the IAF's perspective. Also, the jet isn't mature, it needs 2 regiments inducted first. Only then can the IAF take a look at it again.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We don't know where the engine is today, but I hope you are right though.



The JV wasn't a JV, it was just a license production deal of a model the Russians will develop and we pay for. To make things worse, instead of a new design, the IAF was asked to opt for the same T-50 airframe. The Russians argued a new design will take 15 years versus 8 years for the T-50. So that already made the program impractical.

Even after we signed a deal for engine ToT for Brahmos, the Russians later cancelled it. So MoD decided to derisk the program completely. The option was to pay $3.7B and get nothing except license production, or just MKIze the Su-57 in the future at considerably less money and then license produce it. So that same money was instead transferred to the AMCA program.

The IAF was also disappointed with HAL, they had no capability to contribute to its development. So when the IAF brought DRDO in, they claimed they can develop an equal or better jet. And that's how MCA became AMCA. The JV died a long time ago, they simply kept it alive due to politics. HAL was the main cause of killing it. From 50-50, it dropped down to 25-75 and later 15-85. So it ceased being a JV. HAL argued that they can slowly raise it to 50-50 over time, but that's just avionics. And that's via price gouging the IAF by overpricing the avionics to meet the 50-50 quota.

Varthaman looked into many other aspects, like capability, industrial participation and so on, not HAL's scam aspect or the possibility of the Russians not fulfilling contractual obligations.

Right now, there are still two decent options. One is to just outright buy 2-3 MKIzed squadrons or just license produce 6 of the same. It doesn't change anything in terms of bringing in capability from the IAF's perspective. Also, the jet isn't mature, it needs 2 regiments inducted first. Only then can the IAF take a look at it again.

Thanks to Syrian and Ukrainian experience, the jet is somewhat getting combat tested(even if in limited scale) and that is enhancing its combat maturity.

Except Rafale, all other high-end IAF fighters be it M-2000, Mig-29 or Su-30MKI were WIP at the time of their induction. Yet, the former two gave us impunity from PAF F-16s while the latter allowed us to have the 2nd best Air Dominance Platform(no.1 till 2005) behind F-22 and put us way ahead of PLAAF and their J-11s and Su-30MKKs.

Point is, even if not fully mature, Felon still would provide us safety and parity against J-20. There is no plane currently flying anywhere in the world which can help us counter J-20 except Su-57. F-35 is a great strike fighter and effective air to air fighter against 4th gen planes because of VLO. But that's just about it. It's no match to another VLO ASF. AMCA is going to be a superlative ASF, but by the time we have it operational, PLAAF would move towards their 6th gen J-XX fighter.

 

[Innominate]

. There is no plane currently flying anywhere in the world which can help us counter J-20 except Su-57. F-35 is a great strike fighter and effective air to air fighter against 4th gen planes because of VLO. But that's just about it. It's no match to another VLO ASF. AMCA is going to be a superlative ASF, but by the time we have it operational, PLAAF would move towards their 6th gen J-XX fighter.

 

[LX1111]

Thanks to Syrian and Ukrainian experience, the jet is somewhat getting combat tested(even if in limited scale) and that is enhancing its combat maturity.

Except Rafale, all other high-end IAF fighters be it M-2000, Mig-29 or Su-30MKI were WIP at the time of their induction. Yet, the former two gave us impunity from PAF F-16s while the latter allowed us to have the 2nd best Air Dominance Platform(no.1 till 2005) behind F-22 and put us way ahead of PLAAF and their J-11s and Su-30MKKs.

Point is, even if not fully mature, Felon still would provide us safety and parity against J-20. There is no plane currently flying anywhere in the world which can help us counter J-20 except Su-57. F-35 is a great strike fighter and effective air to air fighter against 4th gen planes because of VLO. But that's just about it. It's no match to another VLO ASF. AMCA is going to be a superlative ASF, but by the time we have it operational, PLAAF would move towards their 6th gen J-XX fighter.

You said Su 30 needs to be so good, why does Russia develop Su 35? 117S engine, N035 radar, sensor fusion, new missile warning system, and most importantly, upgrading flight control and airframe structure. The cancellation of speed brakes is a clear example,
These things are not available in the Su 30, and even the current Su 30 does not even have the most basic UV missile warning, which is not even as good as the J-11B

 

[LX1111]

That's an opinion of a news source which has less worth than most of western media sources.

The Pakistanis used h4 sows which are license copies of the denel raptor. You have no clue of what you are talking about corona spreader.

The H4 itself is a television guided glide bomb equipped with a rocket engine and is not as effective as regular air to ground missiles

 

[Ashwin]

View attachment 29098

Pakistan lacks a real tactical standoff attack platform, that is, missiles with a range of 200-300km. Even if it imports some KD88, it can achieve good results. It is a bit difficulty to attack targets in deep battles with Glide bomb

Pakistan do not even have a twin engine fighter.

They know how to live within their means.

 

[Tatvamasi]

AM Varthaman gave green light after reviewing every aspect of the JV and the plane itself.

Who are you referring to ? That disgraced pilot who crossed border got shot down? What does that clown has to do with FGFA?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Who are you referring to ? That disgraced pilot who crossed border got shot down? What does that clown has to do with FGFA?

Shooting F-16 down ain't no disgrace. FYI, I am referring to Abhinandan's father, AM Simhakutty Varthaman who headed select committee on FGFA deal and gave green signal. Here:

At a time when the IAF has serious reservations about the project, the committee, headed by Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman (retd), has strongly recommended India should go ahead with it, the sources said.

HT was the first to report on February 11 that the government had constituted a committee under the Air Marshal to assess viability of building the stealth fighter with Russia.

“We were given a task and we have submitted our report to the government. That’s all I can tell you,” Varthaman told HT, refusing to share the details of the report. The committee has pointed out that India would significantly gain from partnering with Russia through the transfer of cutting-edge technology, sources said. The four-member panel looked into various aspects of the project for around five months.

Source: India should co-produce stealth fighter with Russia, says top panel

 

[Rajput Lion]

You said Su 30 needs to be so good, why does Russia develop Su 35? 117S engine, N035 radar, sensor fusion, new missile warning system, and most importantly, upgrading flight control and airframe structure. The cancellation of speed brakes is a clear example,
These things are not available in the Su 30, and even the current Su 30 does not even have the most basic UV missile warning, which is not even as good as the J-11BView attachment 29725

What has your reply to do with my post which was about Su-57??

 

[randomradio]

Thanks to Syrian and Ukrainian experience, the jet is somewhat getting combat tested(even if in limited scale) and that is enhancing its combat maturity.

It's nowhere near enough. It needs to finish development before being placed in such an environment. The same point as the F-35, both are vapourware without fully operational squadrons entering service.

Point is, even if not fully mature, Felon still would provide us safety and parity against J-20. There is no plane currently flying anywhere in the world which can help us counter J-20 except Su-57. F-35 is a great strike fighter and effective air to air fighter against 4th gen planes because of VLO. But that's just about it. It's no match to another VLO ASF. AMCA is going to be a superlative ASF, but by the time we have it operational, PLAAF would move towards their 6th gen J-XX fighter.

We don't yet know how advanced the J-20 and Su-57 are relative to the F-35A. The paper specs look great, but that's about it. We need more confirmation from operators.

 

[Hydra]

You said Su 30 needs to be so good, why does Russia develop Su 35? 117S engine, N035 radar, sensor fusion, new missile warning system, and most importantly, upgrading flight control and airframe structure. The cancellation of speed brakes is a clear example,
These things are not available in the Su 30, and even the current Su 30 does not even have the most basic UV missile warning, which is not even as good as the J-11BView attachment 29725

Are you looking for an intellectual conversation governed by facts & logic? Go and find some one else from this forum,that dude eats weed for break fast.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It's nowhere near enough. It needs to finish development before being placed in such an environment. The same point as the F-35, both are vapourware without fully operational squadrons entering service.

True, but still it is baptism by fire, IMO. F-35 and J-20 can't even claim that. Apparently, Felon already has got an air to air kill in Ukraine. If true, then that would be first air kill by any VLO jet. At least, that should testify its radar and weapons performance.

We don't yet know how advanced the J-20 and Su-57 are relative to the F-35A. The paper specs look great, but that's about it. We need more confirmation from operators.

In terms of sensors, F-35A should have advantage against both Su-57 and J-20 because of America's tech lead. But I was talking more about kinematic performance. We know that there is no jet in the world that would touch Su-57, especially with Al-51 coming online from this year itself in operational service. J-20 with WS-15 would be pretty similar. Without Block-4 and new AETP engine, F-35 is grossly screwed.

Only US fighter than can dominate Su-57 and J-20 would be NGAD, but that is almost a decade away.

 

[randomradio]

True, but still it is baptism by fire, IMO. F-35 and J-20 can't even claim that. Apparently, Felon already has got an air to air kill in Ukraine. If true, then that would be first air kill by any VLO jet. At least, that should testify its radar and weapons performance.

The operating environment is not sufficiently advanced enough to consider the Felon combat tested in the air dominance domain. Opposing aircraft are not sophisticated enough, barely even 3.5th gen by IAF standards. We need to see how the F-16 fares at the bare minimum.

In terms of sensors, F-35A should have advantage against both Su-57 and J-20 because of America's tech lead. But I was talking more about kinematic performance. We know that there is no jet in the world that would touch Su-57, especially with Al-51 coming online from this year itself in operational service. J-20 with WS-15 would be pretty similar. Without Block-4 and new AETP engine, F-35 is grossly screwed.

Only US fighter than can dominate Su-57 and J-20 would be NGAD, but that is almost a decade away.

It doesn't work that way because the F-35s will be supported by F-22s, which are currently significantly superior to both the Su-57 and J-20. They both lack supercruise-capable engines, so they both present the same level of threat as the F-35, if they are as stealthy as the F-35 and have relatively mature avionics. There's only superiority in dogfighting, and that's gonna be rare, rather irrelevant.

Even with the new engine, the Su-57s are far too few in number, they need at least 100 to make a difference, that's a long time away, 2030 at the minimum. By then NGAD would become available. At this time, they have only ordered 2 regiments with the new engine.

In any case, the engine is yet to complete state tests, that will go on until 2024 before production starts.

The J-20 appears to be in the same boat. It's unclear when it will get production clearance. Could be the same time as the Su-57.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The operating environment is not sufficiently advanced enough to consider the Felon combat tested in the air dominance domain. Opposing aircraft are not sophisticated enough, barely even 3.5th gen by IAF standards. We need to see how the F-16 fares at the bare minimum.



It doesn't work that way because the F-35s will be supported by F-22s, which are currently significantly superior to both the Su-57 and J-20. They both lack supercruise-capable engines, so they both present the same level of threat as the F-35, if they are as stealthy as the F-35 and have relatively mature avionics. There's only superiority in dogfighting, and that's gonna be rare, rather irrelevant.

Even with the new engine, the Su-57s are far too few in number, they need at least 100 to make a difference, that's a long time away, 2030 at the minimum. By then NGAD would become available. At this time, they have only ordered 2 regiments with the new engine.

In any case, the engine is yet to complete state tests, that will go on until 2024 before production starts.

The J-20 appears to be in the same boat. It's unclear when it will get production clearance. Could be the same time as the Su-57.

As per the Russians even current AL-41F1 engines meet all 5th gen criteria so a limited supercruise of Mach 1.3 is possible. A clean Su-35S using less powerful and complicated variant(F1-S) could easily cruise above Mach 1.1 in testing.

More so, a VLO vs VLO fight may not be a long range BVR fight at all. So most likely scenario would be F-22 and F-35 meeting Su-57 in WVR range. And at that range, Su-57 is designed to really hurt them. Though, J-20 would really suffer in that scenario, IMO.

 

[Innominate]

As per the Russians even current AL-41F1 engines meet all 5th gen criteria so a limited supercruise of Mach 1.3 is possible. A clean Su-35S using less powerful and complicated variant(F1-S) could easily cruise above Mach 1.1 in testing.

More so, a VLO vs VLO fight may not be a long range BVR fight at all. So most likely scenario would be F-22 and F-35 meeting Su-57 in WVR range. And at that range, Su-57 is designed to really hurt them. Though, J-20 would really suffer in that scenario, IMO.

No J-20 or Pak-Fart is EVER going to see the F-35 first... EVER! Your obsession with kinematics is moronic and dimwitted and it shows your intellectual shortcomings when it comes to this topic. In air combat fighters rarely break the sound barrier and when they do they don't go full throttle because it will eat up their fuel very quickly! Go watch the interviews or after-action report of the F14's vs Libyan Mig-23's which the only time the sound barrier was broken was when the F-14's were egressing out of the AO. The F-15's 104 air to air combat record they rarely broke mach 1. Lt Col Cesar Rodriguez who flew the F-15 that shot down a Serbian Mig-29 after dumping his tanks broke mach 1 for a couple of seconds to fire his Aim-120 and he only reached mach 1.4.

You come across as dumb and childish on this topic and have become nothing but a joke and I wouldn't be saying this to you if you were a dopey kid but you're not a kid you're an old-ish man which deserves this kind of ridicule. The things you say, on topics you know nothing about, you say them with such arrogance it has become cringy. Why the hell would a J-20 who doesn't know where F-35's are at be going mach-1 plus? Give me an answer, genius?

F-35's have been taking on F-22's at Red Flag and other air combat exercises for years and it has never been about kinematics it has always been, and will always be, about SA and who can detect the other guy first. F-22 pilots describe how difficult it is taking on F-35 aggressors and the F-22 is a fast as it gets yet it's not kinematics but SA... are you comprehending this or must I really dumb it down for you?

Good luck to the chicom J-20 pilots going to war against 5th gen fighters of the most advanced military in the world under high-tech conditions/EW realm. Chicoms learned how advanced the US can be if they choose to. During Pelosi's trip to Taiwan the chicoms tried to track and jam Pelosi's plane using their J-16D and Type055 warship, their most advanced warship with its huge AESA antenna, only to get jammed by US ISR aircraft near the area and boy was it a big fail for the chicoms.

Btw the F-35's combat ceiling in 50k and no air-to-air combat has ever taken place anywhere near that altitude for obvious reason which something tells me you're clueless of.

 

[Rajput Lion]

No J-20 or Pak-Fart is EVER going to see the F-35 first...

That wasn't my point. Even if F-35 is more stealthy...say -50dBsm from front and Su-57 and J-20 are -30dBsm...both won't detect each other until they are almost WVR. And in that regard, the better dogfighter wins.

EVER! Your obsession with kinematics is moronic and dimwitted and it shows your intellectual shortcomings when it comes to this topic. In air combat fighters rarely break the sound barrier and when they do they don't go full throttle because it will eat up their fuel very quickly! Go watch the interviews or after-action report of the F14's vs Libyan Mig-23's which the only time the sound barrier was broken was when the F-14's were egressing out of the AO. The F-15's 104 air to air combat record they rarely broke mach 1. Lt Col Cesar Rodriguez who flew the F-15 that shot down a Serbian Mig-29 after dumping his tanks broke mach 1 for a couple of seconds to fire his Aim-120 and he only reached mach 1.4.

If kinematics didn't matter then USAF would retire F-22 right away as F-35 has got far better situational awareness than it. It isn't the 'be all end all' of air combat, but then neither are Stealth and SA. You need a combination of all attributes to dominate the battlespace.

You come across as dumb and childish on this topic and have become nothing but a joke and I wouldn't be saying this to you if you were a dopey kid but you're not a kid you're an old-ish man which deserves this kind of ridicule. The things you say, on topics you know nothing about, you say them with such arrogance it has become cringy.

So from being a punk kid I am now an old-ish man, lol. How did your perception change? Is your parent organisation(CIA) tracking me

Why the hell would a J-20 who doesn't know where F-35's are at be going mach-1 plus? Give me an answer, genius?

Supercruise has its own advantages. Go and ask your USAF and guys like Paul Meltz and Dozer to explain.

F-35's have been taking on F-22's at Red Flag and other air combat exercises for years and it has never been about kinematics it has always been, and will always be, about SA and who can detect the other guy first. F-22 pilots describe how difficult it is taking on F-35 aggressors and the F-22 is a fast as it gets yet it's not kinematics but SA... are you comprehending this or must I really dumb it down for you?

Good luck to the chicom J-20 pilots going to war against 5th gen fighters of the most advanced military in the world under high-tech conditions/EW realm. Chicoms learned how advanced the US can be if they choose to. During Pelosi's trip to Taiwan the chicoms tried to track and jam Pelosi's plane using their J-16D and Type055 warship, their most advanced warship with its huge AESA antenna, only to get jammed by US ISR aircraft near the area and boy was it a big fail for the chicoms.

Btw the F-35's combat ceiling in 50k and no air-to-air combat has ever taken place anywhere near that altitude for obvious reason which something tells me you're clueless of.

Typing long paragraphs mean nothing. F-35 is not an air superiority fighter. It's not an answer to Su-57 and J-20. USAF know this. Son, this blind fanboyism won't take you anywhere. Learn to deal with criticism.

 

[randomradio]

As per the Russians even current AL-41F1 engines meet all 5th gen criteria so a limited supercruise of Mach 1.3 is possible. A clean Su-35S using less powerful and complicated variant(F1-S) could easily cruise above Mach 1.1 in testing.

More so, a VLO vs VLO fight may not be a long range BVR fight at all. So most likely scenario would be F-22 and F-35 meeting Su-57 in WVR range. And at that range, Su-57 is designed to really hurt them. Though, J-20 would really suffer in that scenario, IMO.

I'm not convinced by their claims about the 117. Yeah, it must be way better than what's on the Su-35S, but it's barely 5th gen. It doesn't meet the needs of the Su-57 in particular due to its low thrust. It's at least a 15KN difference for each engine. That's effectively 3 tons of thrust.

Cooperative techniques will allow BVR combat.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I'm not convinced by their claims about the 117. Yeah, it must be way better than what's on the Su-35S, but it's barely 5th gen. It doesn't meet the needs of the Su-57 in particular due to its low thrust. It's at least a 15KN difference for each engine. That's effectively 3 tons of thrust.

Yes, if it were perfect then IAF wouldn't opt out of FGFA program and they themselves won't develop Type-30.

Cooperative techniques will allow BVR combat.

Absolutely possible albeit extremely difficult against VLO. And Su-57 is not a joke there as well. Look at the radars and other sensors it has got all across its frame. It can feed of info from its self/friendly sensors as better if not more than F-22/F-35.

 

[randomradio]

No J-20 or Pak-Fart is EVER going to see the F-35 first... EVER! Your obsession with kinematics is moronic and dimwitted and it shows your intellectual shortcomings when it comes to this topic. In air combat fighters rarely break the sound barrier and when they do they don't go full throttle because it will eat up their fuel very quickly! Go watch the interviews or after-action report of the F14's vs Libyan Mig-23's which the only time the sound barrier was broken was when the F-14's were egressing out of the AO. The F-15's 104 air to air combat record they rarely broke mach 1. Lt Col Cesar Rodriguez who flew the F-15 that shot down a Serbian Mig-29 after dumping his tanks broke mach 1 for a couple of seconds to fire his Aim-120 and he only reached mach 1.4.

Supersonic is just a very small part of kinematics.

What defines an air superiority fighter is its ability to leave the clutter zone and take an advantageous position before the enemy can. It's your ability to gain and lose altitude that determines who gets to shoot first.

For example, all fighters fly in the clutter zone where both civilians and non-fighters operate, ie, the 12Km altitude, so they are hidden. But to get a first shot capability, your jet needs to very rapidly climb to 15Km or even 18Km, if that's what it takes. In case it misses its opportunity, it needs to very quickly lose altitude and regain it again. This is where twin engines shine, and this is where the F-35 sucks at.

Then there's supersonic speed that's meant to reach the battlefield. I'll give you an American football analogy. What a QB needs from a WR is the ability to find himself alone behind the line of scrimmage so he can go for the pass. So if you want to stop the WR, assuming the CB is out of action, you need the LB to be frigging fast too. So, while playing defense, the F-35 acts as the line, the F-22's supercruise acts as the LB. 'Cause it's very obvious the enemy will try to penetrate the line where your players are at the thinnest or the weakest. Unless you suggest the line will take on the WR.

Basically the F-22, Su-57 and J-20 play the WR, CB and RB positions alongside being able to play all other positions. The F-35 cannot play these positions, only the line and safety are their go-to positions. That's the difference between air superiority and strike.

If the Russians and Chinese get their stealth on point along with F-22 class performance, then the F-35 will no longer be relevant without massive numbers. So that's the plan, massive numbers, 'cause there's strength in numbers.