PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

As concept it is but the concept is gradually taking a more matured shape now due to autonomous unmanned system itself morphing quickly, and will continue to do so. About the two seater, it was a matter of pursuing it as part of the whole project but our altogether exit from the project meant it went low priority and Su57 itself is just maturing into some usable platform. How far it will go we have to see. There are many dynamics at work, availability of 5th gen jets, several 5th gen individual programs starting, Koreans getting help from US for similar platforms and offering that to emerging markets suggest our own future procurement could be dynamic as well.

The Russians are serious about their military programs, unlike what's been pushed in Western media, all their main programs will go very far. The Su-57 in particular is a 50-year progam for them, almost twice that of AMCA and F-22. That's one of the main reasons why I support a piecemeal induction.

In the meantime, they are considering starting a 6th gen project and it could be optionally manned or completely unmanned.

I am not buying the French tot thing, until I see proper result/solid contract committment. Most of their ToT or commitments from past deals have only resulted in consultancy sort of role in other projects. I do not see any different outcome this time too.Their offer will be in areas where we have equivalent or good enough tech already.

Geopolitics has changed a lot in our favor. Anyway, entering MRFA binds them to a 50% ToT committment right from the start. And ToT will be one of the most important considerations in the contest. The ones who provide the most will win.

You do not have to connect/contract MRFA MMRCA together, just take into account that a single vendor will be the source for both naval and IAF jets, which is not the case for any other vendors taking part, except maybe F35 which we know IAF would definitely consider.

That's just happenstance, not planned. The F-35 won't win without 50% ToT, which is pretty much guaranteed. At this time, the US is only open for a direct export to India, not production, not even an assembly line. They have no real interest in helping us become independent, this was known by how they worded the pact we signed too, DTI, trade instead of technology. To the US, India is just a market in the aerospace sector, not a partner.

Interoperability seems to be a big thing in future decades for our integrated defense forces. Only one offered option suits this for both contracts, now up to the Govt to accept and try to leverage for local prod. I do not think Dassault is in a hurry for local prod yet.

Dassault's assembly line for Falcons can assemble Rafales as well. From their perspective, production in India is cheaper, so they are very interested in starting production in India. It directly affects their bottomline.
 

An intriguing video has surfaced recently, showing the wind-tunnel testing of a French future fighter concept, a tailless jet fitted with prominent leading-edge vortex controllers, or LEVCONs. Interestingly, this is a central feature of the Russian Su-57 Felon advanced fighter. In fact, they look extremely similar in general configuration. This specialized control surface arrangement could see more use in the future, possibly on new-generation fighter designs with tailless layouts.

 
First look it did give su57 minus tail impression, , in general the next gen stuff will move to tailless config I think, at least some programs would definitely. Su75 new model few months before also looked on similar philosophy.
 
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People have habit of jumping on conclusion too early. This is not the serial production model rather a tech demonstrator/prototype, which was produced in 2012 for testing. Serially produced Felons have far far better levels of finish than this prototype.

Do you really think Russia will send their fully finished Su-57 to China?

Let's not forget that the Chinese developed the J-15 from an old Su-33 prototype sourced from Ukraine. They are likely after the Su-57s engine and radar tech.
 
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Let's not forget that the Chinese developed the J-15 from an old Su-33 prototype sourced from Ukraine. They are likely after the Su-57s engine and radar tech.
???????
Is there anything Chinese to learn from the Su-57? The N036 radar or the AL-41 engine,? and these things are already backward in China
 
People have habit of jumping on conclusion too early. This is not the serial production model rather a tech demonstrator/prototype, which was produced in 2012 for testing. Serially produced Felons have far far better levels of finish than this prototype.

Do you really think Russia will send their fully finished Su-57 to China?
The mass-produced skinning process was better than the experimental one,
But it can barely reach the level of the J 10C, far from the fifth-generation fighter
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Let's not forget that the Chinese developed the J-15 from an old Su-33 prototype sourced from Ukraine. They are likely after the Su-57s engine and radar tech.

???????
Is there anything Chinese to learn from the Su-57? The N036 radar or the AL-41 engine,? and these things are already backward in China

Until recently, China was *still* using Russian AL-31 series engines on its Su-33 knockoffs, because apparently your own engines are not very reliable in a marine environment. This after almost a decade of limited production and flight testing. And this is an 80s era platform we're talking about.

Besides, none of your J-10/11/20 aircraft would have got off the ground without tapping into AL-31 tech.
 
Until recently, China was *still* using Russian AL-31 series engines on its Su-33 knockoffs, because apparently your own engines are not very reliable in a marine environment. This after almost a decade of limited production and flight testing. And this is an 80s era platform we're talking about.

Besides, none of your J-10/11/20 aircraft would have got off the ground without tapping into AL-31 tech.
all those smooth surfaces structure manufacturing tech comes from West.
 
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Until recently, China was *still* using Russian AL-31 series engines on its Su-33 knockoffs, because apparently your own engines are not very reliable in a marine environment. This after almost a decade of limited production and flight testing. And this is an 80s era platform we're talking about.

Besides, none of your J-10/11/20 aircraft would have got off the ground without tapping into AL-31 tech.

Until recently, China was *still* using Russian AL-31 series engines on its Su-33 knockoffs, because apparently your own engines are not very reliable in a marine environment. This after almost a decade of limited production and flight testing. And this is an 80s era platform we're talking about.

Besides, none of your J-10/11/20 aircraft would have got off the ground without tapping into AL-31 tech.
Your first statement is incorrect. Early J-15s used AL-31 engines because they had a more sensitive throttle, allowing for a quick recovery after a failed landing, rather than being more advanced. The J-15T currently in production has already switched to the WS-10 engine, such as the one on display at the Zhuhai Air Show.
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Besides, none of your J-10/11/20 aircraft would have got off the ground without tapping into AL-31 tech
Just as without Edison, people could not use electric light at night, but now no one uses the incandescent lamp invented by Edison. Russian engines, like incandescent lamps, have fallen behind
 
Early J-15s used AL-31 engines because they had a more sensitive throttle, allowing for a quick recovery after a failed landing
That is just a sophisticated way of saying that WS-10 didn't generate the same thrust as AL-31 for safe recovery/fly-by before landing on a carrier deck.

There were/are corrosion issues when exposed to maritime conditions. WS-10 was never designed for sea-based ops anyway so no surprises there.

Russian engines, like incandescent lamps, have fallen behind
Is that why you bought a grand total of 24 Su-35 even when your J-20 was going into series production and all your domestic engine programs were doing oh so well?

Would you enlighten us on some specs like TET, MTBF, MTBO of your latest engines?
 
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That is just a sophisticated way of saying that WS-10 didn't generate the same thrust as AL-31 for safe recovery/fly-by before landing on a carrier deck.

There were/are corrosion issues when exposed to maritime conditions. WS-10 was never designed for sea-based ops anyway so no surprises there
To the surprise of most Indians, the thrust at sea level Ws10 is slightly greater than al 31
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Is that why you bought a grand total of 24 Su-35 even when your J-20 was going into series production and all your domestic engine programs were doing oh so well?

Would you enlighten us on some specs like TET, MTBF, MTBO of your latest engines?
China signed the purchase of the Su-35 in 2015, the J-20 is four years away from the official mass delivery, and the WS-10 mass production delivery is only five years away, it is difficult to say that all engine projects are progressing smoothly.
And what happened after that? The Doklam standoff in 2017 and the South China Sea arbitration case in 2016. In 2016, Taiwan's DPP Party came to power for the third time. Faced with so many possible war opportunities, China needs to buy the Su-35 to fill the gap before the new generation of fighters enter service
 
There were/are corrosion issues when exposed to maritime conditions. WS-10 was never designed for sea-based ops anyway so no surprises there
China has deployed a large number of J-11B on islands in the South China Sea, and they face much more severe tests in the tropical combat environment than on the aircraft carrier, but they still use the WS10 engine
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the surprise of most Indians, the thrust at sea level Ws10 is slightly greater than al 31
Depends on what version we're talking about. The basic version certainly didn't match AL-31 thrust levels.

No wonder J-15 was still flying on Russian origin engines until recently, despite J-10/11 having moved on to WS-10.

You claim to have reverse engineered the Su-27 into J-11 and MKK into J-16. You couldn't have stopped at just the airframe. You copied the engine too.

Only your copy wasn't as good as the original.

How does the WS-10 MTBF and MTBO compare to AL-31? Any independent sources you can quote?
 
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