PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Innominate]

Supersonic is just a very small part of kinematics.

What defines an air superiority fighter is its ability to leave the clutter zone and take an advantageous position before the enemy can. It's your ability to gain and lose altitude that determines who gets to shoot first.

Lol. Who detects first is what determines who gets the first shot that is how it is in todays battlespace.

For example, all fighters fly in the clutter zone where both civilians and non-fighters operate, ie, the 12Km altitude, so they are hidden. But to get a first shot capability, your jet needs to very rapidly climb to 15Km or even 18Km, if that's what it takes. In case it misses its opportunity, it needs to very quickly lose altitude and regain it again. This is where twin engines shine, and this is where the F-35 sucks at.

Again the fighter that sees the enemy first dictates how he kills the enemy.

Then there's supersonic speed that's meant to reach the battlefield. I'll give you an American football analogy. What a QB needs from a WR is the ability to find himself alone behind the line of scrimmage so he can go for the pass. So if you want to stop the WR, assuming the CB is out of action, you need the LB to be frigging fast too. So, while playing defense, the F-35 acts as the line, the F-22's supercruise acts as the LB. 'Cause it's very obvious the enemy will try to penetrate the line where your players are at the thinnest or the weakest. Unless you suggest the line will take on the WR.

Basically the F-22, Su-57 and J-20 play the WR, CB and RB positions alongside being able to play all other positions. The F-35 cannot play these positions, only the line and safety are their go-to positions. That's the difference between air superiority and strike.

If the Russians and Chinese get their stealth on point along with F-22 class performance, then the F-35 will no longer be relevant without massive numbers. So that's the plan, massive numbers, 'cause there's strength in numbers.

That is the most retarded analogy. I just love how you can pull claims and make up scenarios out of your a** and wow the mentally dumb like raj.

Not even during the 1982 Bekaa Valley air war did such a scenario exist. It didn't exist in Desert Storm air war either but somehow it exist in your head so that an F-35 is disadvantaged in your head... go figure.

It's funny that you think in todays air wars there will be an actual air battlefield. I think you watched too much TopGun because that is pretty much what you're describing.

No fighter will fly supersonic or supercruise in air combat where that fighter can't detect bogies. Even when fighters like F-14's vs Mig-23's, two of the fastest fighters built, could see each other at far distance and purposely confronted each other they didn't go supersonic.

There's reality backed up with facts and then there's radios and raj's reality how air combat should be.

 

[randomradio]

Lol. Who detects first is what determines who gets the first shot that is how it is in todays battlespace.

When it comes to the Su-57, J-20 and F-35, all three will detect each other at the same time.

Again the fighter that sees the enemy first dictates how he kills the enemy.

Nope. Detection will come from off-board sources.

Lol, they were even talking about removing radar from NGAD and putting it on drones.

The USAF is also moving to create GMTI and AMTI space-based capabilities. Obviously the Chinese and others will take the same route.

That is the most retarded analogy. I just love how you can pull claims and make up scenarios out of your a** and wow the mentally dumb like raj.

Not even during the 1982 Bekaa Valley air war did such a scenario exist. It didn't exist in Desert Storm air war either but somehow it exist in your head so that an F-35 is disadvantaged in your head... go figure.

It's funny that you think in todays air wars there will be an actual air battlefield. I think you watched too much TopGun because that is pretty much what you're describing.

No fighter will fly supersonic or supercruise in air combat where that fighter can't detect bogies. Even when fighters like F-14's vs Mig-23's, two of the fastest fighters built, could see each other at far distance and purposely confronted each other they didn't go supersonic.

There's reality backed up with facts and then there's radios and raj's reality how air combat should be.

There has been no peer combat since the Korean War. So all analogies in terms of air combat using history fail. Plus you are referring to very old times. Why not bring up WW2 or the Korean War then?

Both Israel and the US had significant advantages that made the OPFOR irrelevant. It's like a professional NFL team playing against a two-bit high school team.

Dude, stop overhyping the F-35. It's an aircraft designed to act as a workhorse after more capable aircraft have done their job, a USAF pilot himself said this, and hell, it was you who even put that link up here. The only difference from other workhorses is it's a bit more high-end than necessary. It was designed to complement the F-22, not replace it. It's also why the Turks, Koreans and Japanese started their own next gen ASF programs to complement the F-35, their own words. Fact speak louder than your delusions.

Anyway, supersonic is about getting to the battlefield, not about combat. So it's a good thing you keep proving you don't understand even the simplest of concepts that's obvious to anyone else. Or the F-22 wouldn't have supercruise and, hell, the NGAD is expected to be even faster. The Russians are also making a superfast next gen jet, mach 4+.

Another thing about supersonic is, most current lot of jets cannot make use of it in combat, but that could change with next gen jets. The PAK DP in particular is exclusively being designed for supersonic-only combat missions, and it's gonna be way more stealthy than the Su-57.

And you made another dumb claim. Air battlefields will be getting even more complex than before. Very, very complex due to the decentralisation of decision-making chains.

 

[Lolwa]

The H4 itself is a television guided glide bomb equipped with a rocket engine and is not as effective as regular air to ground missiles

But we were discussing standoff capabilities of the PAF. I just said they do have stand off capability
Plus the only other stand off systems with the PAF are the cm-400 akg and the raad Cruise missile.

 

[Innominate]

That wasn't my point. Even if F-35 is more stealthy...say -50dBsm from front and Su-57 and J-20 are -30dBsm...both won't detect each other until they are almost WVR. And in that regard, the better dogfighter wins.

You don't have a clue the F-35's RCS is or its range in detection "LO" aircraft. What is known is the F-35 "beats" the F-22 in stealth and its avionics are superior to anything flying right now. US has been doing fighter AESA radars for almost 30 years and the chicoms are barely in their first gen AESA.

You're so clueless of the F-35's capabilities that I bet you don't know the F-35 doesn't need to turn in any WVR fight. EODAS... learn what it does in the air to air realm

If kinematics didn't matter then USAF would retire F-22 right away as F-35 has got far better situational awareness than it. It isn't the 'be all end all' of air combat, but then neither are Stealth and SA. You need a combination of all attributes to dominate the battlespace.

And right here is why I call you the names you deserve to be called. So this is your moronic/childish logic... if kinematics didn't matter the USAF would retire the F-22... You wanna stick to your guns and own this dumb reasoning?

Supercruise has its own advantages. Go and ask your USAF and guys like Paul Meltz and Dozer to explain.

And severe disadvantages just ask the same guys.

Typing long paragraphs mean nothing. F-35 is not an air superiority fighter. It's not an answer to Su-57 and J-20. USAF know this. Son, this blind fanboyism won't take you anywhere. Learn to deal with criticism.

It is a multi role fighter that is superior in the air and ground. Pak-fart and J-20 are not in the same class as the F-35. Keep coping, sunshine.

 

[Rajput Lion]

You don't have a clue the F-35's RCS is or its range in detection "LO" aircraft. What is known is the F-35 "beats" the F-22 in stealth and its avionics are superior to anything flying right now. US has been doing fighter AESA radars for almost 30 years and the chicoms are barely in their first gen AESA.

Lol. I admitted that F-35 has better RCS than all its rivals. But just having lower RCS isn't enough. Su-57 and J-20 are also VLO which means their frontal RCS is around -40dBsm. And did I say that detection would take place via radar?

All of three(F-35, Su-57 & J-20) have got QWIP IRST( except F-35), so they would detect each other before radar comes into fray.

You're so clueless of the F-35's capabilities that I bet you don't know the F-35 doesn't need to turn in any WVR fight. EODAS... learn what it does in the air to air realm

EODAS can't ever substitute turning ability. Getting right angles is the perfect way to use HOBS missiles. Gosh! You don't know a sh*t about air combat 101

And right here is why I call you the names you deserve to be called. So this is your moronic/childish logic... if kinematics didn't matter the USAF would retire the F-22... You wanna stick to your guns and own this dumb reasoning?

Go on and keep calling me names. I could care less. Yes, F-22 is the 'Ferrari' to 'pick-up truck' known as F-35. F-35 has better sensors and stealth. Only area F-22 dominate is raw kinematics and there ain't a thing you can do to change it.

And severe disadvantages just ask the same guys.



It is a multi role fighter that is superior in the air and ground. Pak-fart and J-20 are not in the same class as the F-35. Keep coping, sunshine.

Hahaha....Fatty...err...F-35 can't touch the performance of dedicated ASF like F-22/Su-57/J-20 and you know it. Better accept the truth and move on, bud. You ain't winning this fight

 

[LX1111]

Pak-fart and J-20 are not in the same class as the F-35. Keep coping, sunshine.

Can you provide a reason？F35 has but J20 does not

 

[LX1111]

You don't have a clue the F-35's RCS is or its range in detection "LO" aircraft. What is known is the F-35 "beats" the F-22 in stealth and its avionics are superior to anything flying right now. US has been doing fighter AESA radars for almost 30 years and the chicoms are barely in their first gen AESA.

Actually, it belongs to the third generation, using tile packaging (I don't know if this is the word in English). The first generation is installed on J10B, the second generation is installed on J16 and J10C, and the third generation is installed on J20

 

[LX1111]

No J-20 or Pak-Fart is EVER going to see the F-35 first... EVER! Your obsession with kinematics is moronic and dimwitted and it shows your intellectual shortcomings when it comes to this topic. In air combat fighters rarely break the sound barrier and when they do they don't go full throttle because it will eat up their fuel very quickly! Go watch the interviews or after-action report of the F14's vs Libyan Mig-23's which the only time the sound barrier was broken was when the F-14's were egressing out of the AO. The F-15's 104 air to air combat record they rarely broke mach 1. Lt Col Cesar Rodriguez who flew the F-15 that shot down a Serbian Mig-29 after dumping his tanks broke mach 1 for a couple of seconds to fire his Aim-120 and he only reached mach 1.4

The main operational airspace of the fourth generation fighter jet is subsonic and medium to low altitude, but it does not mean that the fifth generation is like this, especially in the vast Asia Pacific region. Moreover, unlike the F35, the F15 is a highly valued aircraft with high altitude and high-speed performance, as it has North American air defense needs

 

[Rajput Lion]

@randomradio

Some juicy details about Su-57 revealed in this official poster:

Source of the image : img_6710.jpg - Click to see more photos on ServImg


Service ceiling with current engines is over 20kms. With AL-51 it could be much more. Numbers even with first stage engines look more impressive(on paper) than F-22. What's your take?

 

[Rajput Lion]

NO-36 Byelka can track fighter size(1m2/3m2??) targets from over 200kms. Range looks very much like Irbis'. F-22's radar is suppose to detect 1m2 target at much longer distance. So looks like radar wise, USAF still has the lead.

 

[BlackWool]

These look like Air to Ground Missiles

Drop Tanks dont have Fins



What is Pralay

They cant be Air to Ground missiles because there is no source of propulsion, and you never know. they may be making drop tanks with stabilizer fins

 

[Rajput Lion]

Russians have shown a patent of 2-seat version of Su-57(i.e. Su-60). As we all know, our FGFA version was also supposed to be 2-seater version. If UAC can produce it and offer it to us, maybe IAF will once again get interested @marich01 @randomradio

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio

Some juicy details about Su-57 revealed in this official poster:

View attachment 29798


Source of the image : img_6710.jpg - Click to see more photos on ServImg


Service ceiling with current engines is over 20kms. With AL-51 it could be much more. Numbers even with first stage engines look more impressive(on paper) than F-22. What's your take?

It's nonsensical.

 

[randomradio]

Russians have shown a patent of 2-seat version of Su-57(i.e. Su-60). As we all know, our FGFA version was also supposed to be 2-seater version. If UAC can produce it and offer it to us, maybe IAF will once again get interested @marich01 @randomradio

The Russians realized the export market needs a 2 seater, not just India. And later they realized they also need two-seaters 'cause of drones.

But yeah, although as time passes it's becoming less and less likely that we will buy the jet, it still exists as a possibility. Let's get MRFA out of the way first. By then the IAF will know the status and realistic potential of the AMCA.

 

[marich01]

Russians have shown a patent of 2-seat version of Su-57(i.e. Su-60). As we all know, our FGFA version was also supposed to be 2-seater version. If UAC can produce it and offer it to us, maybe IAF will once again get interested @marich01 @randomradio

Yes saw that

https://twitter.com/x/status/1726898776999411894

 

[marich01]

The Russians realized the export market needs a 2 seater, not just India. And later they realized they also need two-seaters 'cause of drones.

But yeah, although as time passes it's becoming less and less likely that we will buy the jet, it still exists as a possibility. Let's get MRFA out of the way first. By then the IAF will know the status and realistic potential of the AMCA.

If they already planned to network it with S-70 unmanned co-op, should not that have been the case from before? I mean a twin seater must have been in original plans as well.

About the MRFA, two additional factors can work, one being Parliament defence committee advising MoD to import 5th gen jets should they need. This also some times earlier IAF ACM said they were open to 5th gen offers in MRFA even if technical process only considered multi role jets. They prob eyed f35 likee something, but the openness to a different category of jet is there. Second factor is obvious local production, which I think will only come via Rus offer. No other OEM, even the Frenchies, will likely match that. Now it is up to the Govt/MoD to pursue certain deals.

 

[randomradio]

If they already planned to network it with S-70 unmanned co-op, should not that have been the case from before? I mean a twin seater must have been in original plans as well.

The Russians overestimated their capabilities initially, thought they would have a semi or fully autonomous drone by now, instead of the RPV they have in the form of the S-70. But they developed a twin-seater with India anyway, between 2010 and 2013. I guess they are still not there yet, then again, no one is.

About the MRFA, two additional factors can work, one being Parliament defence committee advising MoD to import 5th gen jets should they need. This also some times earlier IAF ACM said they were open to 5th gen offers in MRFA even if technical process only considered multi role jets. They prob eyed f35 likee something, but the openness to a different category of jet is there. Second factor is obvious local production, which I think will only come via Rus offer. No other OEM, even the Frenchies, will likely match that. Now it is up to the Govt/MoD to pursue certain deals.

More Rafales are necessary, particularly the F5. A mix of F4 and 5 is also fine. 'Cause the IAF wants a proven jet, not a WIP, and stealth jets today are still WIP.

The French are offering a lot more ToT than what we got from the MKI. They plan on giving us 100% of the airframe and engine, and some electronics. The Brits are open to provide ToT matching that as well. The Americans, not so much.

The Russians of course, but the agenda is to induct a non-Russian jet 'cause effectively 30% of the IAF's fleet is Russian. It doesn't make sense to hand over half the IAF's assets to the Russians alone via MRFA too. It's also why we put weight limits in MMRCA, to prevent the MKI from participating.

We can't exceed 300-350 jets per country, so the Russians have finished their quota. The best we can do is replace the Mig-29s with Su-57s. And we can't induct the F-35A without a new engine, either AETP or Growth Option 2.

 

[marich01]

The Russians overestimated their capabilities initially, thought they would have a semi or fully autonomous drone by now, instead of the RPV they have in the form of the S-70. But they developed a twin-seater with India anyway, between 2010 and 2013. I guess they are still not there yet, then again, no one is.

I do not think that is the entire case, this MUMT , manned unmanned thing via specialised stealth platform, its a new thing on the networking, avionics and associated systems side. You can theoretically try the same on old airframes, like making old jet into unmanned companion, but the Military will reject that. This particular case needs far more mature systems even for the core su57 which is now evolving.
A twin seater was definitely in the plans , but only for export perhaps. hence less priority. Plus we left the project altogether. So timelines got shifted and still no certainty that such a version will see daylight.

More Rafales are necessary, particularly the F5. A mix of F4 and 5 is also fine. 'Cause the IAF wants a proven jet, not a WIP, and stealth jets today are still WIP.

The French are offering a lot more ToT than what we got from the MKI. They plan on giving us 100% of the airframe and engine, and some electronics. The Brits are open to provide ToT matching that as well. The Americans, not so much.

The Russians of course, but the agenda is to induct a non-Russian jet 'cause effectively 30% of the IAF's fleet is Russian. It doesn't make sense to hand over half the IAF's assets to the Russians alone via MRFA too. It's also why we put weight limits in MMRCA, to prevent the MKI from participating.

We can't exceed 300-350 jets per country, so the Russians have finished their quota. The best we can do is replace the Mig-29s with Su-57s. And we can't induct the F-35A without a new engine, either AETP or Growth Option 2.

I have not seen anything on the ToT front so far and certainly not from the French. Big reason why the upcoming naval deal is also likely a G2G and got separated from MRFA. I am sure local prod may be on cards, otherwise Rafale too will have limited numbers 5-8 sqn max imo including navy rafales. I think ToT is where they are not very keen and so the deal keeps in delay year after year, because Govt will not agree to whatever level of deal IAF negotiates via tendering process. This part is under NDA hence we see only rumours and various interpretation in media by different stakeholders. What the French offers is just ROH type centre or entirely kit mfg at best, not Rus like local prod.

I am absolutely sure Rafale, unless Rus like local mfg and certain level of ToT is handed over, too will have relatively smaller numbers sqn wise including both marine and regular, and should need arise, Navy/IAF assets will inter-operate.

Agree on the numbers division of course but percentage wise. We are currently running 4 programs for IAF and Navy, and the Govt is likely to push for those to meet almost 50% of the entire pie IAF IN combined. So that naturally push out foreign import numbers by almost half and unlike before we will go multi source.

 

[randomradio]

I do not think that is the entire case, this MUMT , manned unmanned thing via specialised stealth platform, its a new thing on the networking, avionics and associated systems side. You can theoretically try the same on old airframes, like making old jet into unmanned companion, but the Military will reject that. This particular case needs far more mature systems even for the core su57 which is now evolving.
A twin seater was definitely in the plans , but only for export perhaps. hence less priority. Plus we left the project altogether. So timelines got shifted and still no certainty that such a version will see daylight.

MUM-T is pretty old, goes back to the 90s, with prototypes created in the 2000s. The Russians started theirs with the Mikoyan Skat.

The Russians initially tried to convince India to take the single-seat before the two-seat and succeeded, but a two-seat was started again after India quit, which they claimed was for the export market, 'cause the RuAF did not show interest back then.

Of course, there's still no guarantee the RuAF will bite. It will most definitely be offered to India as usual.

I have not seen anything on the ToT front so far and certainly not from the French. Big reason why the upcoming naval deal is also likely a G2G and got separated from MRFA. I am sure local prod may be on cards, otherwise Rafale too will have limited numbers 5-8 sqn max imo including navy rafales. I think ToT is where they are not very keen and so the deal keeps in delay year after year, because Govt will not agree to whatever level of deal IAF negotiates via tendering process. This part is under NDA hence we see only rumours and various interpretation in media by different stakeholders. What the French offers is just ROH type centre or entirely kit mfg at best, not Rus like local prod.

I am absolutely sure Rafale, unless Rus like local mfg and certain level of ToT is handed over, too will have relatively smaller numbers sqn wise including both marine and regular, and should need arise, Navy/IAF assets will inter-operate.

Agree on the numbers division of course but percentage wise. We are currently running 4 programs for IAF and Navy, and the Govt is likely to push for those to meet almost 50% of the entire pie IAF IN combined. So that naturally push out foreign import numbers by almost half and unlike before we will go multi source.

By law the IN and IAF cannot import via a common contract. All contracts are specific to their own models and service wings. So MRCBF was never together with MRFA for them to get separated in the first place. It's why Apache needed a new contract. Exception was made only for all those emergency contracts we signed recently.

The French are all for ToT and full local production. MRFA requirement for ToT is 50%, the French are planning to offer 70%. A 6-squadron order is necessary to complete the ToT though. And the French are willing to fulfill export orders through India too. Overall, they have offered the most promising levels of ToT, including stuff separate from MRFA. They are planning to set up a final assembly line even without the Rafale order anyway, where they will produce Falcons. They are even producing large parts of the airframe already.

First Falcon 2000 Jet May Roll Out Of Mihan By 2025 | Nagpur News - Times of India

Nagpur: Dassault Reliance Aviation Limited (DRAL) is expanding its unit at Mihan-SEZ by building two new hangers.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Five components being made in Dassault-Reliance's Nagpur plant to be integrated with all Rafale jets

To a query on the manufacturing status of Rafale and Falcon 2000 in the DRAL manufacturing plant, the Consul General said that 5 pieces of Rafale are manufactured in Nagpur and then sent to the France assembly line to be assembled in all the Rafale jets, not just the Indian ones. He also said...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[marich01]

MUM-T is pretty old, goes back to the 90s, with prototypes created in the 2000s. The Russians started theirs with the Mikoyan Skat.

The Russians initially tried to convince India to take the single-seat before the two-seat and succeeded, but a two-seat was started again after India quit, which they claimed was for the export market, 'cause the RuAF did not show interest back then.

Of course, there's still no guarantee the RuAF will bite. It will most definitely be offered to India as usual.

As concept it is but the concept is gradually taking a more matured shape now due to autonomous unmanned system itself morphing quickly, and will continue to do so. About the two seater, it was a matter of pursuing it as part of the whole project but our altogether exit from the project meant it went low priority and Su57 itself is just maturing into some usable platform. How far it will go we have to see. There are many dynamics at work, availability of 5th gen jets, several 5th gen individual programs starting, Koreans getting help from US for similar platforms and offering that to emerging markets suggest our own future procurement could be dynamic as well.

I am not buying the French tot thing, until I see proper result/solid contract committment. Most of their ToT or commitments from past deals have only resulted in consultancy sort of role in other projects. I do not see any different outcome this time too.Their offer will be in areas where we have equivalent or good enough tech already.

You do not have to connect/contract MRFA MMRCA together, just take into account that a single vendor will be the source for both naval and IAF jets, which is not the case for any other vendors taking part, except maybe F35 which we know IAF would definitely consider. Interoperability seems to be a big thing in future decades for our integrated defense forces. Only one offered option suits this for both contracts, now up to the Govt to accept and try to leverage for local prod. I do not think Dassault is in a hurry for local prod yet.