PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

We had to buy both Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 in the 80s because of the F 16 threat

That time F 16 was the best and PAF was planning for 6 squadrons

But Larry Pressler saved us ( God Bless his Soul )

I don't think that J 20 or J 35 is superior to Su 57

So SU 57 will be enough for us in case F 35 is Denied

Yeah, Su-57 is more than sufficient technologically. But we cannot compete with their numbers.

800-1000 J-20s vs 60 Su-57s? That's why we have chosen to deal with those numbers with jets that can generate higher sortie rates and turnaround time, and lower downtime, like Rafale and AMCA. If 400 Rafales and AMCA fly twice as much as the J-20, then it's like we have 800 jets.

 

[randomradio]

Huh? The Americans are giving even their poodle UK a painful run-around with regard to F-35 maintenance. Tier-1 ally status notwithstanding.

Iirc the Israeli model allows for the integration of local weapons via an additional software layer (like an app) but without source codes being shared. Given Trump's temperamental nature, this could become the proverbial mill-stone around our neck.

Bonded warehouse planned for F-35 imports and exports

Under this two-year contract, Lockheed Martin will create and operate a 'Public Customs Bonded Warehouse' at RAF Marham where F-35 spare parts and consumables can be held in customs suspension.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The jet that was showed off to India was the Israeli version, so that was probably meant to highlight the advantages of their specific version, so it can transition from F-36A to F-35I to F-35IN. Then the F-35IN will carry an Indian computer alongside a mix of Indian and Israeli avionics. This is necessary for countries not mean to fight as lieutenants of the US.

The F-35's inventory is so big that there's no point in integrating our own weapons. We will have enough American, and we already have enough European and Israeli weapons available for use against Pakistan. And in case of war with China, we will get more from the West.

 

[Parthu]

Your insinuation was the Su-57 as a whole was 4.5th gen, using an early model as a benchmark that even the Russians confirmed wasn't stealthy.

I specifically said "the Felon as it exists".

How much better the production models end up being remains to be seen. Here's an SP model from 2022:

Fit & finish is obviously better, but that could just be because these newer models haven't been as beaten up in testing & flown around as much as the older ones. But other than that, there's nothing radically different about them compared to the T-50s.

Probably why the Russians officially advertise the T-50-7 as the Su-57E. It's probably closer to the production standard (at least for export) than anyone realizes.

 

[randomradio]

I specifically said "the Felon as it exists".

How much better the production models end up being remains to be seen. Here's an SP model from 2022:

View attachment 40367

Fit & finish is obviously better, but that could just be because these newer models haven't been as beaten up in testing & flown around as much as the older ones. But other than that, there's nothing radically different about them compared to the T-50s.

Probably why the Russians officially advertise the T-50-7 as the Su-57E. It's probably closer to the production standard (at least for export) than anyone realizes.

02 is an LSP model. It doesn't have the new engine. Then comes an entire regiment of a slightly better model, I don't think we have seen those pics yet. Followed by the definitive model, with the new engine.

T-50-7 is the static model for the second phase meant for ground testing, it doesn't require RCS measures. The main production model for the definitive version is T-50-11.

 

[Sathya]

I'm no fan of the Su-57 either but given the S-400 and ongoing negotiations for other Russian gear, getting the F-35 for the IAF would be pulling off a major coup. There will have to be hard negotiations on sovereignty/opsec issues.


Not up to the manufacturer but the user I guess. Looks like standard RuAF camo scheme. The RuAF seems to be too busy with Ukraine to bother hiding the real RCS of its future fighter. The Chinese must have been all over this bird at Zhuhai.

Some chinese tweeter during show posted many pics of Su 57 , showing poor fit
and finish... So luneberg lens maynot be necessary.
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[Speedster1]

Some chinese tweeter during show posted many pics of Su 57 , showing poor fit
and finish... So luneberg lens maynot be necessary.
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It's a half-baked product, esp with regard to avionics. Sukhoi is desperate for sales and is hoping India would bail them out. In the 1990s, they developed MKI with Indian money and feedback, opening the door for sales to Malaysia, Algeria and others.

The RuAF bought their Su-30SM/SM2 variant much later. Same playbook, different timelines. Only difference is China will never buy a notional Su-57MKK. They can cherry-pick whatever they need, esp. engine tech. The Russians will bend over backwards to oblige them.

Heck, Chinese components could well end up in the Su-57 because of Western sanctions. That's another reason why I think Su-57 may not be the best option for India.

 

[randomradio]

Some chinese tweeter during show posted many pics of Su 57 , showing poor fit
and finish... So luneberg lens maynot be necessary.
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It's within expectations for a prototype. Only serial production models are made with good finish.

 

[randomradio]

It's a half-baked product, esp with regard to avionics.

The avionics on their own are really, really good, they even have good software. The issue is sensor fusion. They have chosen to develop a less capable version compared to the Americans in order to deploy the jet faster. They are following India's timeline for the same, so it will eventually get it.

Basically, everything on the Su-57 is good. It's high performance, it's VLO, it has avionics that are more than a match for Western equivalents and so on. The airframe is 70% composites by surface area. Even with engine, the 117 has already caught up with Western engines, and the new AL-51 exceeds the current lot by a significant margin. Only NGAP will deliver a superior engine this decade.

And it's really cheap. $35-40M per jet flyaway. The fact that it's already got an export customer shows the jet is now ready.

So if the IAF is looking for a 5th gen stopgap, it can compete very well with the F-35A.

If we are to go for it, it's gonna need GaN though. That's about the only drawback.

Sukhoi is desperate for sales and is hoping India would bail them out. In the 1990s, they developed MKI with Indian money and feedback, opening the door for sales to Malaysia, Algeria and others.

The RuAF bought their Su-30SM/SM2 variant much later. Same playbook, different timelines. Only difference is China will never buy a notional Su-57MKK. They can cherry-pick whatever they need, esp. engine tech. The Russians will bend over backwards to oblige them.

That was the case earlier, their modernization budget today is multiple times bigger than India's. The Germans were very recently complaining about that.

But it's a given that they need an export partner to share costs, especially under the current sanctions regime.

Their SoEs have too much debt though.

Heck, Chinese components could well end up in the Su-57 because of Western sanctions. That's another reason why I think Su-57 may not be the best option for India.

There's no real danger of that. Even the Russians stay away from such things.

 

[Speedster1]

Basically, everything on the Su-57 is good. It's high performance, it's VLO, it has avionics that are more than a match for Western equivalents and so on.

Russian electronics are generally bulkier than their Western counterparts. For example, the Su-57 uses an underslung EO/IR targeting pod. Strange for a VLO bird.

The cockpit features dual MFDs (like the Su-35, Su-30SM2, etc) indicating possible limitations with display/processor tech. The HOTAS is in the centre vs side-stick on Western 5G jets which affects cockpit ergonomics and can be bad for situational awareness.

In terms of kinematics, it's a killer, no doubt. But it'll take a lot of work and money to bring it up IAF-spec in terms of avionics and sensor fusion.

 

[randomradio]

Russian electronics are generally bulkier than their Western counterparts.

It's pretty much the same. Some of Russia's alternative sensors are bigger, and there are some capabilities entirely missing, like DIRCM.

For example, the Su-57 uses an underslung EO/IR targeting pod. Strange for a VLO bird.

That's 'cause the Su-57's strike role is secondary. They will develop a dedicated strike jet instead.

The cockpit features dual MFDs (like the Su-35, Su-30SM2, etc) indicating possible limitations with display/processor tech. The HOTAS is in the centre vs side-stick on Western 5G jets which affects cockpit ergonomics and can be bad for situational awareness.

Their belief is if one MFD fails, the other acts as a backup versus the entire system failing just once with a single large display.

Cockpit ergonomics is entirely dependent on what they have always been used to doing, so it doesn't matter. You will hear the opposite view from Western pilots too.

The Su-57 has been designed with a lot of automation in mind. Rostec claims that the pilot doesn't have to control it once the jet is in the air.

In terms of kinematics, it's a killer, no doubt. But it'll take a lot of work and money to bring it up IAF-spec in terms of avionics and sensor fusion.

Due to the low cost of the aircraft itself, and the fact that it uses MKI infra for basing, production, and MRO, the procurement cost will relatively be peanuts, dumping enough money into R&D for MKIzation and still be significantly cheaper than a Western jet. We could easily get 63 Su-57EIs at half the IAF's Rafale contract. That's how cheap it is.

With that said, I'd rather see the IAF buying more stopgap Rafales before MRFA is done, not Su-57 or F-35. Any Russian import should be aimed at the Mig-41, nothing less.

 

[Rajput Lion]

AMCA won't be fully combat ready before 2040, IMO. We can't ONLY rely on 4th gen jets to take on J-20/J-35/J-36/J-50. Su-57M with a dedicated 2-seat MKI version(with EOTS et al) is absolutely imperative for us to maintain the edge. I've been saying that since long and sooner or later IAF is gonna wake up and realize that as well.

People may laugh and call my idea overly optimistic, but honestly I wouldn't mind India going for more Rafales + Su-57s + F-35s. Let's see!

 

[Hydra]

And it's really cheap. $35-40M per jet flyaway. The fact that it's already got an export customer shows the jet is now ready.

That's roughly equivalent to LCA price tag. You need to apply logic here,does a fifth generation heavy class fighter will comes with that much low price tag? Remember it's aheavy class fighter,not a medium aircraft.
If someone one is trying to sell ring under 1000 rupees (12 dollar) and they claim that it's diamond ring, i should under stand it's just a counterfeit. That much bare basic commonsense I must have until and unless I am a communist comrade.
SU57 is not a gen 5 fighter,it's a cheap low grade gen 4 aircraft. I will even rate LCA mk1a above su57 . Don't bring the fallacy like Russian currency conversion rate bring the price low.

 

[Hydra]

and the new AL-51 exceeds the current lot by a significant margin.

Only thing worth to purchase or borrow from su57 program is this. Purchase or beg this engine and start a new stealth aircraft design now itself as AMCA will be a mediocre aircraft when comes to load & range,which may be adequate against Pakistan but not against China. If Russians are not willing ToT, use this as an interim solution as we are going to do with F414 engine.

We can drop TEDBF program and start working for another stealth aircraft, a Heavy class one, the development of earlier one is not justifiable for us because we will be have only two not three ACs asper reports.

 

[Hydra]

Any Russian import should be aimed at the Mig-41, nothing less.

Agreed, we should have gone for Mig31. With mig21 we really could have avoid the humiliation on feb27, could have shoot down the PAF aews & EW aircraft and totally disrupting the PAF operation.

Not having the MiG 25 successor ,that mistake we should not repeat and must go for Mig41 as it's available. I don't think west will develop something like mig31 or mig 41 as it is not fit their requirements.

 

[Hydra]

AMCA won't be fully combat ready before 2040, IMO. We can't ONLY rely on 4th gen jets to take on J-20/J-35/J-36/J-50. Su-57M with a dedicated 2-seat MKI version(with EOTS et al) is absolutely imperative for us to maintain the edge. I've been saying that since long and sooner or later IAF is gonna wake up and realize that as well.

People may laugh and call my idea overly optimistic, but honestly I wouldn't mind India going for more Rafales + Su-57s + F-35s. Let's see!

I will definitely laugh at IAF if they aren't going for Rafale.
I will definitely laught IAF if they said AMCA is the only option they want and denied to pursuing F35.
I will laugh at IAF if they are going for SU57.