PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Speedster1]

The Su-57 is the first jet designed to fight on its own, independent of any support.

It's also the first clean sheet fighter design to come out of Russia in a long, long time. For all its advanced features, the RuAF has ordered just 75. If we buy the Felon, we'd be paying through our noses for getting it to perform to its advertised specs. Since MMRCA, the IAF has been considering the total lifecycle cost of different competing aircraft.

Problem is the RuAF probably doesn't have enough Su-57 in service for us to even arrive at a reasonable estimate. All figures from the manufacturer would be hypothetical. So all things considered, Su-57 would be a huge risk in tactical and financial terms for the IAF. With Rafale, we'd at least know what we were getting for our money.

 

[randomradio]

It's also the first clean sheet fighter design to come out of Russia in a long, long time.

It's actually irrelevant. Their R&D never stopped 'cause of Indian and Chinese orders.

For all its advanced features, the RuAF has ordered just 75.

The Russians base their procurement via a State Armament Plan, and they publicly announce what they are buying within that period. The current one is 2020-2027 called GPV-2027. The plan for 2028+ is yet to be announced.

So it's 76 jets in 3 regiments until 2027, but production will continue beyond that, with new variants taking over.

Since Russia has 5 military districts, at least as many as 6 regiments worth will be bought, 1 spread between training and testing units. The war could increase numbers.

If we buy the Felon, we'd be paying through our noses for getting it to perform to its advertised specs. Since MMRCA, the IAF has been considering the total lifecycle cost of different competing aircraft.

LCC of Russian jets used to be a problem before, it's not as much today. That's why the 117 has achieved Western standards. It has the same overhaul cycle as the latest Western engines. AL-31FP was at 1000 hours with 4000 hours life, 117S was improved to 1500 hours and 6000 hours life, but 117 is at 4000 hours, possibly 8000 hours life. So it even exceeds Rafale's current engine, which is at 3000 hours with 6000 hours life.

Similarly, the airframe should be able to provide full 8000 hours or even 10000 hours, if that's how long AL-51 is expected to last.

All this without even counting the ridiculously cheap ruble, which means even if the Su-57 is harder to maintain, the Rafale will still be more expensive due to Western costs. So the Su-57 is the cheapest way to push the IAF to the next level.

Problem is the RuAF probably doesn't have enough Su-57 in service for us to even arrive at a reasonable estimate. All figures from the manufacturer would be hypothetical. So all things considered, Su-57 would be a huge risk in tactical and financial terms for the IAF. With Rafale, we'd at least know what we were getting for our money.

Lining up an export customer already puts it at a pretty good maturity level. And by the time we make a decision, it's gonna be years later and quite a few more before we get it. Even though we call it a stopgap, both F-35 and Su-57 are realistic only after 2030.

 

[Parthu]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1899404834798772725

What people also need to realize is that the Russians could have made the Su-57 far stealthier if they wanted to - in fact I'd say the Su-47 Berkut had much better underpinnings for a good stealth design at least as far as the fuselage goes - but they realized very early on that they need to make a plane that they can easily produce with their existing Flanker-building infrastructure without needing extensive re-tooling (like we're doing now for 50k ton press for building AMCA).

So a significant degree of stealth had to be compromised for sake of affordability. There's no point in denying that it was.

The production-grade Felon is likely to be more refined than the current T-50s, but not so much that it becomes an F-22 equivalent. One can only put so much lipstick on a pig. We didn't reject FGFA for no reason.

 

[mamiam23]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1899404834798772725

What people also need to realize is that the Russians could have made the Su-57 far stealthier if they wanted to - in fact I'd say the Su-47 Berkut had much better underpinnings for a good stealth design at least as far as the fuselage goes - but they realized very early on that they need to make a plane that they can easily produce with their existing Flanker-building infrastructure without needing extensive re-tooling (like we're doing now for 50k ton press for building AMCA).

So a significant degree of stealth had to be compromised for sake of affordability. There's no point in denying that it was.

The production-grade Felon is likely to be more refined than the current T-50s, but not so much that it becomes an F-22 equivalent. One can only put so much lipstick on a pig. We didn't reject FGFA for no reason.

IAF is tired of dealing with substandard Russian planes. They themselves opted out for some entity that is well versed in Importing planes. Talks of Su-57 import are more absurd than F-35.

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1899404834798772725

What people also need to realize is that the Russians could have made the Su-57 far stealthier if they wanted to - in fact I'd say the Su-47 Berkut had much better underpinnings for a good stealth design at least as far as the fuselage goes - but they realized very early on that they need to make a plane that they can easily produce with their existing Flanker-building infrastructure without needing extensive re-tooling (like we're doing now for 50k ton press for building AMCA).

So a significant degree of stealth had to be compromised for sake of affordability. There's no point in denying that it was.

The production-grade Felon is likely to be more refined than the current T-50s, but not so much that it becomes an F-22 equivalent. One can only put so much lipstick on a pig. We didn't reject FGFA for no reason.

The Su-57 was designed to use Su-30's infrastructure right from the beginning. And Su-47 Berkut was the same.

The Flanker production line is pretty good. Nothing wrong with making a design that uses the same production process. It doesn't mean the product becomes inferior.

 

[randomradio]

IAF is tired of dealing with substandard Russian planes. They themselves opted out for some entity that is well versed in Importing planes. Talks of Su-57 import are more absurd than F-35.

The Su-57 is considerably cheaper to operate than a Flanker, by a very wide margin.

 

[Lolwa]

That's roughly equivalent to LCA price tag. You need to apply logic here,does a fifth generation heavy class fighter will comes with that much low price tag? Remember it's aheavy class fighter,not a medium aircraft.
If someone one is trying to sell ring under 1000 rupees (12 dollar) and they claim that it's diamond ring, i should under stand it's just a counterfeit. That much bare basic commonsense I must have until and unless I am a communist comrade.
SU57 is not a gen 5 fighter,it's a cheap low grade gen 4 aircraft. I will even rate LCA mk1a above su57 . Don't bring the fallacy like Russian currency conversion rate bring the price low.

The lca might have a competitive RCS with the su-57 but it doesn't have access to a 400km aesa radar with r-37m.

 

[Hydra]

The lca might have a competitive RCS with the su-57 but it doesn't have access to a 400km aesa radar with r-37m.

still SU57 is cheaper than LCA, either HAL is robbing the nation or Russia is selling an ape auto as Leyland truck.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The lca might have a competitive RCS with the su-57 but it doesn't have access to a 400km aesa radar with r-37m.

Even Su-57E has an order of magnitute lower RCS than Tejas(any variant) clean or loaded. With the M variant having AL-51F engines that have dedicated radar blockers front/rear and stealth nozzles, the difference would be even more.

IAF is extremely impressed with Su-57 prototype(at this years' Aero India). Sooner or later, we shall know more

 

[randomradio]

Even Su-57E has an order of magnitute lower RCS than Tejas(any variant) clean or loaded. With the M variant having AL-51F engines that have dedicated radar blockers front/rear and stealth nozzles, the difference would be even more.

IAF is extremely impressed with Su-57 prototype(at this years' Aero India). Sooner or later, we shall know more

The Su-57 has a far lower RCS than people assume, otherwise that hexagonal exhaust would be useless. Only a VLO jet can sacrifice thrust in order to reduce IR signature from the engine. Without VLO, round nozzles would have been fine.

Western lobbyists pushed fake news onto people, and they believed it. I don't think people remember that it was Ajai Shukla who spread it and now he writes for The Wire. So his credentials for working against India's interests are already well established.

Btw, the M designation doesn't exist yet. It's the same Su-57 for now. The export version comes with the new engine.

 

[YoungWolf]

Even Su-57E has an order of magnitute lower RCS than Tejas(any variant) clean or loaded. With the M variant having AL-51F engines that have dedicated radar blockers front/rear and stealth nozzles, the difference would be even more.

IAF is extremely impressed with Su-57 prototype(at this years' Aero India). Sooner or later, we shall know more

So you're saying that T50-04, which was here during AI-25 "impressed" the IAF? Need I remind you, good sir, that IAF dumped the PAK-FA based FGFA back in 2018, citing it's poor stealth features as one of the grave concerns, along with their reluctance to honour the terms of agreement

Let them fly it with AL-51 first, produce in meaningful numbers and showcase the definitive version before anyone talks about Felon impressing the IAF.

Nothing has changed since 2018. Couple of radar blockers fore and aft of the engines won't reduce the RCS in any meaningful way. The heavy lifting (roughly ~75%, plz don't quote me on the %ges) when it comes to an aircraft's stealth is done by the geometry of the wings & fuselage, rest by materials & paints. That the exposed fan blades of the engines massively increase the radar return is well known. Radar blockers won't decrease the frontal RCS in any meaningful way. It'll be akin to putting lipstick on a pig, it remains a pig (capable but still, a pig) and doesn't become a supermodel.

Plus, buying Su-57 (E, M or whatever) would be akin to "thook ke chaatna" (borrowing the phrase from@_Anonymous_). Once rejected, it stays rejected. Any 5th gen stopgap should be entertained ONLY if AMCA faces any further, unfortunate delays, and even then, I'd rather the IAF entertains F-35 than Su-57. Nothing comes close F-35's stealth & the level of sensor fusion it possesses.

 

[Rajput Lion]

So you're saying that T50-04, which was here during AI-25 "impressed" the IAF? Need I remind you, good sir, that IAF dumped the PAK-FA based FGFA back in 2018, citing it's poor stealth features as one of the grave concerns, along with their reluctance to honour the terms of agreement

Let them fly it with AL-51 first, produce in meaningful numbers and showcase the definitive version before anyone talks about Felon impressing the IAF.

Nothing has changed since 2018. Couple of radar blockers fore and aft of the engines won't reduce the RCS in any meaningful way. The heavy lifting (roughly ~75%, plz don't quote me on the %ges) when it comes to an aircraft's stealth is done by the geometry of the wings & fuselage, rest by materials & paints. That the exposed fan blades of the engines massively increase the radar return is well known. Radar blockers won't decrease the frontal RCS in any meaningful way. It'll be akin to putting lipstick on a pig, it remains a pig (capable but still, a pig) and doesn't become a supermodel.

Plus, buying Su-57 (E, M or whatever) would be akin to "thook ke chaatna" (borrowing the phrase from@_Anonymous_). Once rejected, it stays rejected. Any 5th gen stopgap should be entertained ONLY if AMCA faces any further, unfortunate delays, and even then, I'd rather the IAF entertains F-35 than Su-57. Nothing comes close F-35's stealth & the level of sensor fusion it possesses.

Russians were reluctant to share tech with us despite wanting our money. Thus we moved on. IAF got a 'very good' look at Su-57 prototype and now have a good idea about its capability.

F-35 is designed to kill SAMs/IADS, Su-57 is designed to kill F-22/35. As I said earlier, it's all about priorities. Let's us wait n watch.......