PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Speedster1]

@Parthu, @Speedster1

It's flying without any Lunerburg Lens 'cause it ain't no Su-57, but T-50 prototype.

This bird is probably closer to production standard. Doesn't seem to be carrying any test instrumentation or even a pitot tube. And the ugly rivets from the earlier prototypes seem to be gone too.

I thought the RuAF had adopted a similar digital camo pattern for its own birds.

 

[Ashwin]

AeroIndia 2025

 

[randomradio]

The decision of buying a Russian or American 5th gen is something that's taken at the highest levels. IAF contingents have had a close look at the Su-57 (known back then as T-50 PAK-FA) for several years back when we were involved in FGFA. It's unlikely they're seeing anything new. Su-57 has evolved very little since then (save for some new stuff like the stealthy nozzle that's being tested, but that's not being shown at Aero India anyway).



Exactly.

Personally, as far as any off-the-shelf buy of 5th gen is concerned, I'm of the opinion that until & unless the terms & conditions for getting the F-35 (even a watered-down version, modified further with Israeli avionics) are totally unacceptable, we won't even seriously consider going back to the Russians.

They still have to be tested in Indian conditions first, and the OEMs have to become comfortable enough for India to actually test those jets before buying.

Btw, has anyone noticed that Su-57 seems to be the only '5th gen' that flies around at air shows without any Luneberg lens?

The version going around are the non-stealth prototypes meant only for aerodynamic testing. They split their development program into two halves, with the first 6 being simpler ones and only the later bits with some stealth. Full capabilities are still being released, like the new engine. We are yet to see the final version with all the bells and whistles.

The airframe would still be the same. Quite a lot of information can still be obtained regarding the airframe from various aspect angles - most of which will be carried over to the production Su-57 as is.

Nothing important can be gleaned from the first 6 prototypes.

 

[randomradio]

This bird is probably closer to production standard. Doesn't seem to be carrying any test instrumentation or even a pitot tube. And the ugly rivets from the earlier prototypes seem to be gone too.

I thought the RuAF had adopted a similar digital camo pattern for its own birds.

This is T-50-4. The production model is T-50-11. The first prototype of the second stage is T-50-6-2, and from here on, we are either rarely seen photos of prototypes or have simply disappeared from public eyes.

We are yet to see the main production model though. Plus information died out after the war started. And the T-50-11 went through changes that we haven't seen in Oct 2022.

 

[Parthu]

They still have to be tested in Indian conditions first, and the OEMs have to become comfortable enough for India to actually test those jets before buying.

Obviously.

The version going around are the non-stealth prototypes meant only for aerodynamic testing. They split their development program into two halves, with the first 6 being simpler ones and only the later bits with some stealth. Full capabilities are still being released, like the new engine. We are yet to see the final version with all the bells and whistles.

Nothing important can be gleaned from the first 6 prototypes.

In other words, the Felon as it exists has RCS comparable to most 4.5 gen fighters at clean load. So they figured why bother hiding it.

I doubt how much can be changed in the production versions. You can make minor discontinuities go away as you apply RAM & bring better fit-finish to the airframe, but that alone won't change the signature of the plane entirely. A lot will remain common. This is more important going into the future because radars will be inferencing quite a lot.

You don't see the Americans parading X-35 or YF-22 at foreign air shows. Either you're serious about stealth or you're not.

Russians as of now are not entirely certain how far they can realistically go with low-observability on the Su-57. A lot of it is WIP and may or may not materialize in a production-ready form.

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1888406977690419302

 

[Speedster1]

We'd have to spend years fixing issues with Su-57 if we ended up buying it. Hope the IAF doesn't get suckered into being the first international user of this jet.

Algeria is reportedly the launch customer but the Russians would like nothing better than for us to do the honors.

Unlike the 1980s, when we bought the MiG-29A, we have options today. We need to play the F-35 and Su-57 off against each other and get the best deal.

 

[Gautam]

 

[randomradio]

In other words, the Felon as it exists has RCS comparable to most 4.5 gen fighters at clean load. So they figured why bother hiding it.

Incorrect. The Felon as we know it, based on early prototypes, is not stealthy. The stealthy model is still in production.

Plus the presence or absence of a Luneburg lens isn't enough of a proof. There could be other ways to do it.

You don't see the Americans parading X-35 or YF-22 at foreign air shows. Either you're serious about stealth or you're not.

Russians as of now are not entirely certain how far they can realistically go with low-observability on the Su-57. A lot of it is WIP and may or may not materialize in a production-ready form.

YF-22 was a stealthy model which went through RCS testing.

And the Russians have other stealth jets.

We'd have to spend years fixing issues with Su-57 if we ended up buying it. Hope the IAF doesn't get suckered into being the first international user of this jet.

Algeria is reportedly the launch customer but the Russians would like nothing better than for us to do the honors.

Yep. We told them that before placing FGFA on hold (not canceled yet though).

 

[Parthu]

Incorrect. The Felon as we know it, based on early prototypes, is not stealthy. The stealthy model is still in production.

Yea, tomato tomahto.

YF-22 was a stealthy model which went through RCS testing.

The basic shape of the airframe has to undergo preliminary RCS testing to ensure there aren't any glaring errors in the design even prior to building the first prototypes.

I'm sure they put a scaled model through the tests.

 

[randomradio]

Yea, tomato tomahto.

Er... no. Tomato potato.

The basic shape of the airframe has to undergo preliminary RCS testing to ensure there aren't any glaring errors in the design even prior to building the first prototypes.

I'm sure they put a scaled model through the tests.

A 1:1 model is made for RCS tests, but it won't be flyable. AMCA already has that.

 

[Parthu]

Er... no. Tomato potato.

I said current model's RCS is probably comparable to a clean load 4.5 gen plane (like SH).

You said current model isn't stealthy.

4.5 gen jets aren't stealth.

Hence, tomato tomahto.

 

[randomradio]

I said current model's RCS is probably comparable to a clean load 4.5 gen plane (like SH).

You said current model isn't stealthy.

4.5 gen jets aren't stealth.

Hence, tomato tomahto.

Your insinuation was the Su-57 as a whole was 4.5th gen, using an early model as a benchmark that even the Russians confirmed wasn't stealthy.

Anyway, it's interesting but it appears AM Chopra has given his personal seal of approval for inducting the Su-57 in order to counter the PAF's J-35. We have to see what the Russians are willing to offer. They want a license production deal, while if we go for it, it's not gonna go beyond 2 or 3 squadrons.

The glaring issue with the Su-57 is the avionics are not yet as advanced as hoped when it comes to sensor fusion. It's still WIP. So we need it to mature fully before going for it. Too many new weapons as well, so all of those have to be tested.

With both the F-35 and Su-57 around, I guess this has become the most interesting air show in a very long time.

 

[Speedster1]

The Russians will renege on sensitive tech transfer as part of any license prod deal. We've seen it all to often in the past.

The F-35 Block 4 for the IAF will certainly give us an edge over China-Pak. Problem is everything from logistics (ALIS) to access control will be under US supervision.

The question is how much of our pride are we willing to swallow to go one-up over our enemies.

 

[randomradio]

The Russians will renege on sensitive tech transfer as part of any license prod deal. We've seen it all to often in the past.

The F-35 Block 4 for the IAF will certainly give us an edge over China-Pak. Problem is everything from logistics (ALIS) to access control will be under US supervision.

The question is how much of our pride are we willing to swallow to go one-up over our enemies.

Any license production deal will see MKIzation of the Su-57, so our own avionics. But yeah, if done, we will need far more ToT than MKI for the airframe and engine. Some exotic parts can be imported in the beginning, but we will definitely need a roadmap for 100% indigenization by the time the jet hits MLU.

More realistically, there's not going to be a production deal. But if the Russians plan on making India their Flanker export hub due to sanctions, then there's a possibility of allowing assembly of any stopgap Su-57s ordered, which can eventually move towards export deliveries too.

The F-35 will come with that risk, but if we follow the Israeli model we will have significantly more control over the aircraft than even the USAF. At least, unlike Su-57, it's a significant step ahead with its new avionics.

Alternatively, the F-35 is a direct competitor to the MRFA Rafales. If the Americans agree to meet local production and ToT requirements, then it could become an option. The West typically start offering equivalents the minute we develop our own tech.

It's going to be quite funny if we end up building 4th gen MRFA Rafales, a la 3rd gen Jaguars, but also go for 2 squadrons each of 5th gen Su-57 and F-35, a la 4th gen M2000/Mig-29. History repeating itself. Even the timelines match; late 1970s/2020s and early 1980s/2030s.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Any license production deal will see MKIzation of the Su-57, so our own avionics. But yeah, if done, we will need far more ToT than MKI for the airframe and engine. Some exotic parts can be imported in the beginning, but we will definitely need a roadmap for 100% indigenization by the time the jet hits MLU.

More realistically, there's not going to be a production deal. But if the Russians plan on making India their Flanker export hub due to sanctions, then there's a possibility of allowing assembly of any stopgap Su-57s ordered, which can eventually move towards export deliveries too.

The F-35 will come with that risk, but if we follow the Israeli model we will have significantly more control over the aircraft than even the USAF. At least, unlike Su-57, it's a significant step ahead with its new avionics.

Alternatively, the F-35 is a direct competitor to the MRFA Rafales. If the Americans agree to meet local production and ToT requirements, then it could become an option. The West typically start offering equivalents the minute we develop our own tech.

It's going to be quite funny if we end up building 4th gen MRFA Rafales, a la 3rd gen Jaguars, but also go for 2 squadrons each of 5th gen Su-57 and F-35, a la 4th gen M2000/Mig-29. History repeating itself. Even the timelines match; late 1970s/2020s and early 1980s/2030s.

People on Twitter are disappointed with TEDBF timeliness

Before TEDBF is in production
Rafale F5 will be ready

So obviously , Navy will augment its fleet of 26 Rafale Ms

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

It's going to be quite funny if we end up building 4th gen MRFA Rafales, a la 3rd gen Jaguars, but also go for 2 squadrons each of 5th gen Su-57 and F-35, a la 4th gen M2000/Mig-29. History repeating itself. Even the timelines match; late 1970s/2020s and early 1980s/2030s.

We had to buy both Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 in the 80s because of the F 16 threat

That time F 16 was the best and PAF was planning for 6 squadrons

But Larry Pressler saved us ( God Bless his Soul )

I don't think that J 20 or J 35 is superior to Su 57

So SU 57 will be enough for us in case F 35 is Denied

 

[Speedster1]

The F-35 will come with that risk, but if we follow the Israeli model we will have significantly more control over the aircraft than even the USAF

Huh? The Americans are giving even their poodle UK a painful run-around with regard to F-35 maintenance. Tier-1 ally status notwithstanding.

Iirc the Israeli model allows for the integration of local weapons via an additional software layer (like an app) but without source codes being shared. Given Trump's temperamental nature, this could become the proverbial mill-stone around our neck.

Bonded warehouse planned for F-35 imports and exports

Under this two-year contract, Lockheed Martin will create and operate a 'Public Customs Bonded Warehouse' at RAF Marham where F-35 spare parts and consumables can be held in customs suspension.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Soldier35]

Official footage of the Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet in flight at the Aero India exhibition has been published. The aircraft is piloted by test pilot and Hero of Russia Sergey Bogdan. Aero India is expected to feature a competition between the world's two most advanced fifth-generation fighter jets, the Russian Su-57 and the US F-35 Lightning II. Both countries will compete for the right to join the Indian Air Force's future fighter fleet. Both aircraft have advantages and disadvantages. The Su-57 can reach speeds of up to 2,450 km/h, while the F-35 can reach speeds of up to 1,930 km/h. The Su-57 has two engines, which increases the aircraft's survivability. The Su-57 is also more maneuverable in close combat. Both aircraft are barely noticeable to radar, but the F-35 is considered to be less noticeable because it is built with a small radar cross-section (RCS) and is covered with radar-absorbing materials. It is worth noting that the F-35 coating is sensitive to sunlight, salty wind and supersonic flight, it begins to peel off, it needs to be renewed every 2-3 years. When storing the aircraft in the sun, the coating deteriorates in 3 months. The production of the F-35 has already been established, and the production of the Su-57 has just begun to increase. The F-35 has more advanced electronics, but there are still problems with it, there is a lot of information about this on the network. The longest-range American missile AIM-54 Phoenix, air-to-air, has a range of up to 184 km. R-37M missiles, Su-57 aircraft, can hit large targets at a range of up to 400 km, information about them is on the channel. Estimated cost: Su-57 about 35-40 million dollars, F-35 from 80 to 100 million dollars. According to the latest news, the Su-57 is an excellent maneuverable fifth-generation fighter and India needs something similar, said Indian Air Marshal Anil Chopra.

 

[randomradio]

People on Twitter are disappointed with TEDBF timeliness

Before TEDBF is in production
Rafale F5 will be ready

It's not a surprise. It was always known that neither AMCA nor TEDBF were gonna compete within the MRFA/Rafale's time line, it was just some internet folks living in denial. You can definitely expect both programs to go well beyond those dates. When these jets are in serial production, Rafale production could very well be on its way out.

So obviously , Navy will augment its fleet of 26 Rafale Ms

Maybe, maybe not. We need to see how many drones will operate alongside Rafales whenever IAC-3 becomes available. 22 Ms are sufficient for IAC-2 and below.