PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Speedster1]

As the computer simulations show, while it may not be as stealthy as F-35, it certainly is VLO. And computer can't simulate the exact RAS/RAM that the Russians have used in the production model. So, the real Su-57 is even much more stealthy than what has been simulated here.

The future Su-57M and Su-60M(KI/FGFA) would be even stealthier.

Sukhoi's goal RCS for Su-57 was reported to be between 0.1 to 1m2. Too wide a range to label it VLO, imo. The RuAF lack of commitment to the design raises my eyebrows.

Kinda reminds me of our own past where the ADA tild the IAF the LCA'd be ready by 1990 when it wasn't anywhere close to that. Glad to be proven wrong wrt Su-57 though.

 

[Lolwa]

@Speedster1, @South block, @Lolwa, @Hydra, @Innominate and other guys who doubt the stealth of Su-57. Well here the best analysis of its stealth especially in comparison with F-35.

Give it a thorough read:

What is the RCS of the SU 57?

Jack's answer: So, what is the RCS of the SU57? Is it 0.1m2 (-10dbsm)~1m2 (1dbsm) since a lot of people say that the SU57 has the same RCS size of an F/A 18 and Rafale aircraft. Saying that the SU57 has a less/no RAM coating with exposed rivets, back part of the engine nacelles, intake with no r...

www.quora.com

Don't think anyone has done any better analysis than this guy.

Seems plausible

Sukhoi's goal RCS for Su-57 was reported to be between 0.1 to 1m2. Too wide a range to label it VLO, imo. The RuAF lack of commitment to the design raises my eyebrows.

Kinda reminds me of our own past where the ADA tild the IAF the LCA'd be ready by 1990 when it wasn't anywhere close to that. Glad to be proven wrong wrt Su-57 though.

I think overall average RCS of most stealth vlo aircrafts seems to be between 1.5-0.01 sqm RCS. Doesn't matter if it's the f-35 or su-57 or j-20

 

[randomradio]

The tail sting on the Felon extends quite a bit beyond the engines possibly to give the rear-facing radar antenna a decent FoV. Bad for RCS though.

The tail sting is fine. It will have a lower RCS than the engine even with the flat nozzles.

Even with the new nozzles, the engine ducts/nacelles still have a curvy mid-section. Only the inlets are faceted.

More rounded than the F-35?

And the Su-57's treatment is better than the F-35's.

People tend to forget that the F-35's design predates the Su-57's.

 

[Speedster1]

And the Su-57's treatment is better than the F-35's.

People tend to forget that the F-35's design predates the Su-57's.

If the Su-57 was so much better than the F-35s, the Russians would've been using them extensively in Ukraine for precision strikes. It would've helped them reduce collateral damage and counter Ukrainian propaganda.

Besides, what better way to advertise its capabilites to the world than a shooting war? But no, they're instead flying them at airshows wowing crowds in foriegn countries.

The US has a long and proud history of building stealth jets. Russia cut its teeth on stealth fighter design with the Felon and borrowed heavily from legacy design philosophy at that. They're improving fast but are no match for the US in this arena.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Sukhoi's goal RCS for Su-57 was reported to be between 0.1 to 1m2. Too wide a range to label it VLO, imo. The RuAF lack of commitment to the design raises my eyebrows.

Kinda reminds me of our own past where the ADA tild the IAF the LCA'd be ready by 1990 when it wasn't anywhere close to that. Glad to be proven wrong wrt Su-57 though.

Sukhoi also said that F-22's RCS was 0.3m2. So maybe they were touting all-aspect average RCS figure rather than front-on lowest figure. Btw, did you go through the link I quoted? Su-57's frontal RCS, based on simulations could be between -24dBsm to -27dBsm as per the simulations. That's definitely VLO.

And no one knows the real RAM/RAS that the Russians are using. So real Felon would be close to -40dBsm like the Raptor in the frontal aspect.

 

[Rajput Lion]

If the Su-57 was so much better than the F-35s, the Russians would've been using them extensively in Ukraine for precision strikes. It would've helped them reduce collateral damage and counter Ukrainian propaganda.

Besides, what better way to advertise its capabilites to the world than a shooting war? But no, they're instead flying them at airshows wowing crowds in foriegn countries.

The US has a long and proud history of building stealth jets. Russia cut its teeth on stealth fighter design with the Felon and borrowed heavily from legacy design philosophy at that. They're improving fast but are no match for the US in this arena.

Lol, they even don't have a divison of Felon ready. It's just not mature enough to spearhead a shooting war. Plus, what I said earlier that F-35 is designed to hunt IADS on its own. That's why it has an integrated targeting pod in EOTS. Su-57 is simply designed to kill F-22/F-35.

MKI has destroyed F-15/16 etc. in every single combat exercise. Su-57 will destroy F-22/35, J-20/35 just as well. That's what matter to us.

 

[randomradio]

If the Su-57 was so much better than the F-35s, the Russians would've been using them extensively in Ukraine for precision strikes. It would've helped them reduce collateral damage and counter Ukrainian propaganda.

Besides, what better way to advertise its capabilites to the world than a shooting war? But no, they're instead flying them at airshows wowing crowds in foriegn countries.

The US has a long and proud history of building stealth jets. Russia cut its teeth on stealth fighter design with the Felon and borrowed heavily from legacy design philosophy at that. They're improving fast but are no match for the US in this arena.

They have been using the Su-57 in combat quite extensively. Just less pronounced due to the low numbers fielded.

Ukraine claims Russian Su-57s engaged in dozens of strikes

The Ukrainian Air Force has claimed that Russian fifth-generation stealth Sukhoi Su-57 Felon fighter jets have conducted numerous strikes on targets in Ukraine.

bulgarianmilitary.com

The Russians have even claimed an air kill against a Su-27.

 

[Speedster1]

Sukhoi also said that F-22's RCS was 0.3m2. So maybe they were touting all-aspect average RCS figure rather than front-on lowest figure. Btw, did you go through the link I quoted? Su-57's frontal RCS, based on simulations could be between -24dBsm to -27dBsm as per the simulations. That's definitely VLO

All public RCS figures are averages. Neither simulations nor patent docs can factor the effect of RAM treatments on actual RCS either. But that's beside the point.

Fundamentally, nothing can make up for bad shaping, and Russia hasn't made any breakthroughs in stealth tech that I know of. Secondly, the Su-57s flying today are prototypes testing different systems. Meaning they don't have all of the systems and the associated airframe ports (CMDS, etc) so final RCS figures are anybody's guess at this point.

The basic airframe design is frozen at this point and it's all down to fit and finishing of different airframe elements. Russian manufacturing tolerances are no where close to the US and Europe, esp now that Russia is under a Western embargo.

 

[Lolwa]

If the Su-57 was so much better than the F-35s, the Russians would've been using them extensively in Ukraine for precision strikes. It would've helped them reduce collateral damage and counter Ukrainian propaganda.

Besides, what better way to advertise its capabilites to the world than a shooting war? But no, they're instead flying them at airshows wowing crowds in foriegn countries.

The US has a long and proud history of building stealth jets. Russia cut its teeth on stealth fighter design with the Felon and borrowed heavily from legacy design philosophy at that. They're improving fast but are no match for the US in this arena.

The su-57 isn't designed for an a2g role. It's closer to a cruise missile carrier and lobbing off stand off munitions. Also it's dependent on the 101-ksn targetting pod. So it's effectively and 4.5 gen fighter in its targetting role. And it's actually worse because russia doesn't really have any stand off munitions. The only one that they have is the kh 69 and the kab 1500 se. It's the r-37 that is the real gamechanger on the su-57.

 

[Speedster1]

The su-57 isn't designed for an a2g role. It's closer to a cruise missile carrier and lobbing off stand off munitions. Also it's dependent on the 101-ksn targetting pod. So it's effectively and 4.5 gen fighter in its targetting role. And it's actually worse because russia doesn't really have any stand off munitions. The only one that they have is the kh 69 and the kab 1500 se. It's the r-37 that is the real gamechanger on the su-57.


View attachment 41834

Dude that external targeting pod is meant for a2g weapons. The Russians have shown some new weapons like Kh-38 and a winged glide bomb whose name I can't remember atm + updated versions of classics like Kh-31 and Kh-59.

The IAF has huge stocks of old missiles like Kh-29/31/59. One way or another some of these weapons will end up in our inventory.

 

[randomradio]

The su-57 isn't designed for an a2g role. It's closer to a cruise missile carrier and lobbing off stand off munitions. Also it's dependent on the 101-ksn targetting pod. So it's effectively and 4.5 gen fighter in its targetting role. And it's actually worse because russia doesn't really have any stand off munitions. The only one that they have is the kh 69 and the kab 1500 se. It's the r-37 that is the real gamechanger on the su-57.


View attachment 41834

Su-57 does not have a penetration role, but it does have an A2G role.

They have glide bombs too.

https://www.wsj.com/video/series/equipped/russian-glide-bombs-cheap-deadly-and-almost-unstoppable/9ACE6189-F649-4556-A418-392C8F98F165?mod=WSJvidctr_upnext_pos4

3T bomb.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/07/19/what-we-know-about-russias-new-3-ton-glide-bomb/

Glide bombs do not use targeting pods.