PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Speedster1]

As the computer simulations show, while it may not be as stealthy as F-35, it certainly is VLO. And computer can't simulate the exact RAS/RAM that the Russians have used in the production model. So, the real Su-57 is even much more stealthy than what has been simulated here.

The future Su-57M and Su-60M(KI/FGFA) would be even stealthier.

Sukhoi's goal RCS for Su-57 was reported to be between 0.1 to 1m2. Too wide a range to label it VLO, imo. The RuAF lack of commitment to the design raises my eyebrows.

Kinda reminds me of our own past where the ADA tild the IAF the LCA'd be ready by 1990 when it wasn't anywhere close to that. Glad to be proven wrong wrt Su-57 though.

 

[Lolwa]

@Speedster1, @South block, @Lolwa, @Hydra, @Innominate and other guys who doubt the stealth of Su-57. Well here the best analysis of its stealth especially in comparison with F-35.

Give it a thorough read:

What is the RCS of the SU 57?

Jack's answer: So, what is the RCS of the SU57? Is it 0.1m2 (-10dbsm)~1m2 (1dbsm) since a lot of people say that the SU57 has the same RCS size of an F/A 18 and Rafale aircraft. Saying that the SU57 has a less/no RAM coating with exposed rivets, back part of the engine nacelles, intake with no r...

www.quora.com

Don't think anyone has done any better analysis than this guy.

Seems plausible

Sukhoi's goal RCS for Su-57 was reported to be between 0.1 to 1m2. Too wide a range to label it VLO, imo. The RuAF lack of commitment to the design raises my eyebrows.

Kinda reminds me of our own past where the ADA tild the IAF the LCA'd be ready by 1990 when it wasn't anywhere close to that. Glad to be proven wrong wrt Su-57 though.

I think overall average RCS of most stealth vlo aircrafts seems to be between 1.5-0.01 sqm RCS. Doesn't matter if it's the f-35 or su-57 or j-20

 

[randomradio]

The tail sting on the Felon extends quite a bit beyond the engines possibly to give the rear-facing radar antenna a decent FoV. Bad for RCS though.

The tail sting is fine. It will have a lower RCS than the engine even with the flat nozzles.

Even with the new nozzles, the engine ducts/nacelles still have a curvy mid-section. Only the inlets are faceted.

More rounded than the F-35?

And the Su-57's treatment is better than the F-35's.

People tend to forget that the F-35's design predates the Su-57's.

 

[Speedster1]

And the Su-57's treatment is better than the F-35's.

People tend to forget that the F-35's design predates the Su-57's.

If the Su-57 was so much better than the F-35s, the Russians would've been using them extensively in Ukraine for precision strikes. It would've helped them reduce collateral damage and counter Ukrainian propaganda.

Besides, what better way to advertise its capabilites to the world than a shooting war? But no, they're instead flying them at airshows wowing crowds in foriegn countries.

The US has a long and proud history of building stealth jets. Russia cut its teeth on stealth fighter design with the Felon and borrowed heavily from legacy design philosophy at that. They're improving fast but are no match for the US in this arena.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Sukhoi's goal RCS for Su-57 was reported to be between 0.1 to 1m2. Too wide a range to label it VLO, imo. The RuAF lack of commitment to the design raises my eyebrows.

Kinda reminds me of our own past where the ADA tild the IAF the LCA'd be ready by 1990 when it wasn't anywhere close to that. Glad to be proven wrong wrt Su-57 though.

Sukhoi also said that F-22's RCS was 0.3m2. So maybe they were touting all-aspect average RCS figure rather than front-on lowest figure. Btw, did you go through the link I quoted? Su-57's frontal RCS, based on simulations could be between -24dBsm to -27dBsm as per the simulations. That's definitely VLO.

And no one knows the real RAM/RAS that the Russians are using. So real Felon would be close to -40dBsm like the Raptor in the frontal aspect.

 

[Rajput Lion]

If the Su-57 was so much better than the F-35s, the Russians would've been using them extensively in Ukraine for precision strikes. It would've helped them reduce collateral damage and counter Ukrainian propaganda.

Besides, what better way to advertise its capabilites to the world than a shooting war? But no, they're instead flying them at airshows wowing crowds in foriegn countries.

The US has a long and proud history of building stealth jets. Russia cut its teeth on stealth fighter design with the Felon and borrowed heavily from legacy design philosophy at that. They're improving fast but are no match for the US in this arena.

Lol, they even don't have a divison of Felon ready. It's just not mature enough to spearhead a shooting war. Plus, what I said earlier that F-35 is designed to hunt IADS on its own. That's why it has an integrated targeting pod in EOTS. Su-57 is simply designed to kill F-22/F-35.

MKI has destroyed F-15/16 etc. in every single combat exercise. Su-57 will destroy F-22/35, J-20/35 just as well. That's what matter to us.

 

[randomradio]

If the Su-57 was so much better than the F-35s, the Russians would've been using them extensively in Ukraine for precision strikes. It would've helped them reduce collateral damage and counter Ukrainian propaganda.

Besides, what better way to advertise its capabilites to the world than a shooting war? But no, they're instead flying them at airshows wowing crowds in foriegn countries.

The US has a long and proud history of building stealth jets. Russia cut its teeth on stealth fighter design with the Felon and borrowed heavily from legacy design philosophy at that. They're improving fast but are no match for the US in this arena.

They have been using the Su-57 in combat quite extensively. Just less pronounced due to the low numbers fielded.

Ukraine claims Russian Su-57s engaged in dozens of strikes

The Ukrainian Air Force has claimed that Russian fifth-generation stealth Sukhoi Su-57 Felon fighter jets have conducted numerous strikes on targets in Ukraine.

bulgarianmilitary.com

The Russians have even claimed an air kill against a Su-27.

 

[Speedster1]

Sukhoi also said that F-22's RCS was 0.3m2. So maybe they were touting all-aspect average RCS figure rather than front-on lowest figure. Btw, did you go through the link I quoted? Su-57's frontal RCS, based on simulations could be between -24dBsm to -27dBsm as per the simulations. That's definitely VLO

All public RCS figures are averages. Neither simulations nor patent docs can factor the effect of RAM treatments on actual RCS either. But that's beside the point.

Fundamentally, nothing can make up for bad shaping, and Russia hasn't made any breakthroughs in stealth tech that I know of. Secondly, the Su-57s flying today are prototypes testing different systems. Meaning they don't have all of the systems and the associated airframe ports (CMDS, etc) so final RCS figures are anybody's guess at this point.

The basic airframe design is frozen at this point and it's all down to fit and finishing of different airframe elements. Russian manufacturing tolerances are no where close to the US and Europe, esp now that Russia is under a Western embargo.

 

[Lolwa]

If the Su-57 was so much better than the F-35s, the Russians would've been using them extensively in Ukraine for precision strikes. It would've helped them reduce collateral damage and counter Ukrainian propaganda.

Besides, what better way to advertise its capabilites to the world than a shooting war? But no, they're instead flying them at airshows wowing crowds in foriegn countries.

The US has a long and proud history of building stealth jets. Russia cut its teeth on stealth fighter design with the Felon and borrowed heavily from legacy design philosophy at that. They're improving fast but are no match for the US in this arena.

The su-57 isn't designed for an a2g role. It's closer to a cruise missile carrier and lobbing off stand off munitions. Also it's dependent on the 101-ksn targetting pod. So it's effectively and 4.5 gen fighter in its targetting role. And it's actually worse because russia doesn't really have any stand off munitions. The only one that they have is the kh 69 and the kab 1500 se. It's the r-37 that is the real gamechanger on the su-57.

 

[Speedster1]

The su-57 isn't designed for an a2g role. It's closer to a cruise missile carrier and lobbing off stand off munitions. Also it's dependent on the 101-ksn targetting pod. So it's effectively and 4.5 gen fighter in its targetting role. And it's actually worse because russia doesn't really have any stand off munitions. The only one that they have is the kh 69 and the kab 1500 se. It's the r-37 that is the real gamechanger on the su-57.


View attachment 41834

Dude that external targeting pod is meant for a2g weapons. The Russians have shown some new weapons like Kh-38 and a winged glide bomb whose name I can't remember atm + updated versions of classics like Kh-31 and Kh-59.

The IAF has huge stocks of old missiles like Kh-29/31/59. One way or another some of these weapons will end up in our inventory.

 

[randomradio]

The su-57 isn't designed for an a2g role. It's closer to a cruise missile carrier and lobbing off stand off munitions. Also it's dependent on the 101-ksn targetting pod. So it's effectively and 4.5 gen fighter in its targetting role. And it's actually worse because russia doesn't really have any stand off munitions. The only one that they have is the kh 69 and the kab 1500 se. It's the r-37 that is the real gamechanger on the su-57.


View attachment 41834

Su-57 does not have a penetration role, but it does have an A2G role.

They have glide bombs too.

https://www.wsj.com/video/series/equipped/russian-glide-bombs-cheap-deadly-and-almost-unstoppable/9ACE6189-F649-4556-A418-392C8F98F165?mod=WSJvidctr_upnext_pos4

3T bomb.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/07/19/what-we-know-about-russias-new-3-ton-glide-bomb/

Glide bombs do not use targeting pods.

 

[Lolwa]

Dude that external targeting pod is meant for a2g weapons. The Russians have shown some new weapons like Kh-38 and a winged glide bomb whose name I can't remember atm + updated versions of classics like Kh-31 and Kh-59.

The IAF has huge stocks of old missiles like Kh-29/31/59. One way or another some of these weapons will end up in our inventory.

That's what my point is. The f-35 and maybe the j-20 do not need a target pod. They have an eots to do the job for a2g missions while the su-57 needs a targeting pod like the rafale, typhoon and f-15 to do the same job.

 

[randomradio]

That's what my point is. The f-35 and maybe the j-20 do not need a target pod. They have an eots to do the job for a2g missions while the su-57 needs a targeting pod like the rafale, typhoon and f-15 to do the same job.

You do realize the F-22 is used for DEAD without either an EOTS or a targeting pod, right? And both Su-57 and F-22 carry the same kinda weapons for the job, the Su-57 quite a bit more.

The J-20's EOTS is primarily for A2A with a secondary A2G role.

 

[Lolwa]

You do realize the F-22 is used for DEAD without either an EOTS or a targeting pod, right? And both Su-57 and F-22 carry the same kinda weapons for the job, the Su-57 quite a bit more.

The J-20's EOTS is primarily for A2A with a secondary A2G role.

But even the f-22 can't do pure bread n butter a2g like the f-35. It's still primarily an air-superiority role. And f-22 uses the agm-88 HARMS for DEAD you don't need a targetting pod for that. An f-22 is useless in a counter insurgency role or even a dedicated precision bombing role. Su-57 is slightly better due to it having access to the 101-ksn

 

[Hydra]

The tail sting is fine. It will have a lower RCS than the engine even with the flat nozzles.

Every single thing makes a differences, i do remember that an ex IAF officiall was saying how a loosely tight screw gives elevated RCS while testing F35 in US. Funny part is he quoted this to undermine Russian capability to bring stealth in FGFA.

 

[Hydra]

And the Su-57's treatment is better than the F-35's.

Neither You or me or anyone else can have access to botu F35&SU57 data. Butbwe havw seen how otyer Russian weapons performed against various weapons from west in past. So don't tell that SU57 stealth treatment is better thann f35. Logically speaking SU57 should be an inferior stealth aircraft than F35 because 1) US has decades of experience in designing & deploying multiple stealth aircraft prior to F45 designing 2)Russians dont have much fund to fine tune that aircraft. My post#655 3) IAF was backed of from FGFA because of maany factors, one being its not stealth enough.

People tend to forget that the F-35's design predates the Su-57's.

You know that JF17 is a recent weapon than F16, so which one is better among these two?

 

[randomradio]

But even the f-22 can't do pure bread n butter a2g like the f-35. It's still primarily an air-superiority role. And f-22 uses the agm-88 HARMS for DEAD you don't need a targetting pod for that. An f-22 is useless in a counter insurgency role or even a dedicated precision bombing role. Su-57 is slightly better due to it having access to the 101-ksn

The targeting pod is required for only one type of weapon, a laser-guided bomb. Weapons like SPICE, SDB, SAAW etc do not need it.

The Russians have also created other hardware that can accurately attack ground targets, like the Gefest SVP-24. It provides laser-guided accuracy, but they put the sensor on the aircraft and just drop dumb bombs with an accuracy of 3-5 m.

F-22 uses SDB for DEAD.

 

[randomradio]

Every single thing makes a differences, i do remember that an ex IAF officiall was saying how a loosely tight screw gives elevated RCS while testing F35 in US. Funny part is he quoted this to undermine Russian capability to bring stealth in FGFA.

Stealth aircraft are RCS tested after maintenance. Plus panels are designed in such a way that they fit in seamlessly from the start. A pilot also visually inspects the aircraft before flying it, paying more attention to whatever was worked on by the ground crew.

People make whatever excuses they want just to not support what they don't want to support.

Think about it this way, the IAF is happy with the Bars radar and think it will remain useful for many more years. The F-22 and F-35 are still flying with analog AESA radars. But everybody has a problem with the Russians already operating better tech than what's on the F-22/F-35, ie, a generation ahead of the Bars, which even the IAF is fine with, and on an aircraft that's as stealthy as the F-22/F-35. And the Russians claim the Su-57 is much cheaper to operate than the Flanker, which gives it an advantage over the F-22.

The Su-57 is a real 5th gen aircraft, and new variants with modifications are coming in. There will be a Su-57M, even an M2, and a Su-60 and a Su-63 and a Su-64 and all successive models will be more stealthy than the one previous to it, all within a decade from now, and all more capable than the F-22/F-35.

People have consumed so much Western propaganda that even Western analysts have started taking back their criticisms of the Su-57.

People are yet to see the final version before true RCS tests can be conducted by outsiders.

 

[randomradio]

Neither You or me or anyone else can have access to botu F35&SU57 data. Butbwe havw seen how otyer Russian weapons performed against various weapons from west in past. So don't tell that SU57 stealth treatment is better thann f35. Logically speaking SU57 should be an inferior stealth aircraft than F35 because 1) US has decades of experience in designing & deploying multiple stealth aircraft prior to F45 designing 2)Russians dont have much fund to fine tune that aircraft. My post#655 3) IAF was backed of from FGFA because of maany factors, one being its not stealth enough.

The Su-57 exposes very little of its flat underbelly to radar, whereas all of the F-35's underbelly is exposed. It's worse on the F-22 and J-20.

Russia has more money than the US. Every dollar in the US is like $8-12 in Russia.

I have already given the reasons for why the IAF has put FGFA on hold. Read post 621, previous page.

You know that JF17 is a recent weapon than F16, so which one is better among these two?

JF-17 is a modified Mig-21. So it's older than the F-16.

 

[Speedster1]

The Russians have also created other hardware that can accurately attack ground targets, like the Gefest SVP-24

That was to compensate for their lack of a working LDP. Their Sapsan-E targeting pod was so poor that even the RuAF rejected it. So they built a low cost nav/attack system running CCIP algorithms to improve bombing accuracy. It was a jugaad solution at best