You are trying to make it to one. The thread is about JF 17. The post i quoted is about a tweet from mouth piece of Chinese ruling party. Which speaks about increasing the production of JF 17 by China. Rest i leave it to you. If it is still an indigenous one then refer to my quote. If it is not then its settled.
Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Pakistanis caught with their pants down....lol Iron brother exposed them,hence proved JF17 is a chinese AC assembled in Pakistan , poor mans Su30
Chengdu CATIC was trying to pull a fast one on us.
They wanted Pakistan just to assemble the aircraft and keep all the production rights and capacity to themselves.
That was the main sticking point in the early days of the project.
As of now 58% of the fuselage is made in Pakistan.
Other parts such as wiring, pipe work , canopy, drop tanks, HUD glass and assembly are also made in Pakistan.
Actual certification of the components whether made in Pakistan or China, are done at CATIC , who remain a single source of qualification and certification of JF-17. This is a commercially viable arrangement.
The research and development work was jointly done and china had no knowledge and experience of F-16. All that was given to them by Pakistan.
Entire firmware for the flight control computer was written in Pakistan. I actually had a chance to talk to the private software company who wrote the software, and now cannot talk much about it due to non-disclosure agreement.
So weapons integration and sensor integration is done in Pakistan, but has to be certified in China for export purposes.
Likewise the software for HUD was originally developed and tested in Pakistan for F-7 and then ported to Thunder .
I understand that India makes some parts for SU-30MKI from raw materials.
But that ratchets up the price to 73 million USD per SU-30 MKI ( As per the link I posted in my previous comment).
We cannot and don't want to do that.
If a component can be reliably and cheaply made in Pakistan, it will be done. But if it's available elsewhere for cheap, we will have that.
Indigenous or not, doesn't matter. Cost and availability matters .
About the tweet in question, its too early to draw a conclusion.
But Thunder Block III and twinn seater B have had quite a lot of interest from foreign buyers.
Whether any export orders come to China or Pakistan, both countries are responsible to build their share of components for the order as neither can make it all on their own.
[QUOTE="Arsalan123, post: 147779, member: 633"
i didn't say that jf-17 is better than f-16. f-16 is dream of every pilot. i don't know why you haven't selected f-16. anyway jf-17 block 3 is going to be a beast.
[/QUOTE]
. Assumption is the mother of all failures .Perhaps if you know anybody from your airforce you should ask this question but i don't think you do otherwise you would know the answer to that question pretty well. Jf17block 3 would be as good as f16 block 52 that you have with less potent weapon system.
i didn't say that jf-17 is better than f-16. f-16 is dream of every pilot. i don't know why you haven't selected f-16. anyway jf-17 block 3 is going to be a beast.
[/QUOTE]
. Assumption is the mother of all failures .Perhaps if you know anybody from your airforce you should ask this question but i don't think you do otherwise you would know the answer to that question pretty well. Jf17block 3 would be as good as f16 block 52 that you have with less potent weapon system.
kindly ask iaf ground radar controller about our sorties.he will reveal the truth. people in your air force know our capabilities.we even showed everyone video of bomb launch.it's available for you to see. the pilot was in total control and you can even see your army compound in the video.why are you comparing us with afghans? we have a history. no disrespect to your airforce but we have destroyed israeli,russian,even indian jets. we are the best and we know it. people can cry and people screams but in professional life,there is no place for error.we did our job and we are always ready.f-16 is the best. you should watch f-16 videos.it's a fantasic jet.it turns very quickly,it dives very quickly,it uses amraam,it can win any dogfight.it's a complete package.no big rcs problem here as well.
You don't even fly your F16s that much actually. The ADF ones when received by Jordan already had their 75% lifetime used up, which then received the overhaul and again before being transferred to Pakistan had again used up almost all of its flight hours. When you guys received it, it would be hardly having 500 hours more without the MLU.
Just for comparison even the Bisons in our fleet fly 120-150 hours a year, MKIs flying upto 180-200 hours a years. By that standards either you guys don't fly your F16s ADF or you have completed the flying hours and in gross level of incompetence keep flying after the OEM guarantees are over putting the pilots and ground crews at a danger. So much for your competence.
Coming to 31 of the original F16 AM/BM. They did receive the MLU extending a further 2000 hours of service life. But the engines weren't changed and had the same 6000 hours life which was already 75-80% used before going into the MLU. This again means either you don't fly as much or you fly expired engines in a show of great competence.
Only the 14 embargoed and 18 newer F16s have lives which can be used considerably.
Coming to your JF17 fleet, those smokey engines have a life of not more than 500-600 hours , then how come your Airforce officers claim that JF17s of block 1 have flown 1000+ hours? Because you guys have recieved no extra RD93s as of today , it only means that the officers of a competent airforce is not telling the truth simply.
Coming back to 27th February, again we are an open democracy where even deaths of nuclear research personal cannot be hidden because of relatively more free and widespread media. That's where your claim of Su30MKI going down goes down the drain. But unlike India, you guys suppressed all press , even then videos came out of doosra banda , didn't it?
A single Bison without even 8222 spj went in that day and shot down your AWACS backed F16BM.
Shows all the competence of your Airforce.
see i don't know much about engines and life expectancy of jordan f-16s. rd-33 have expected life span of 3000 and rd-93 is probably 4000. you said above 500 to 600 hours? are you fine? lol
you can ask questions on mlu from some other member or i will ask with my pakistani friends.
we don't hide. fox3 and your su-30.remember you always buy more su-30s.you have done it previously and you are buying it again so it's easy for you to replace destroyed su-30 with a new su-30. see you have changed data link,new missiles and even have new jet now.i mean you were running like a headless chicken after feb 27.this sums up everything.now even today,you aren't ready. if you are ready,face paf. it's simple.according to you,your practice a lot. why turning cold if you practice a lot? your mirages turned cold,your su-30s turned cold. may be rafales will turn cold in future.i mean nobody knows your practice procedures.
I wanted to expand to this and give proof of F-16 pilot flying hours and real inventory. Pakistan always had very few F-16s. Pakistan initially signed a contract for 40 F-16, it received them between 1983-1987. By 1997 8 of the F-16 were lost in crashes, accidents/shoot downs. Then in 2010 Pakistan received a batch of 18 F-16s and in 2014 they received 13 more.
For 27 years Pakistan never operated more then 40 F-16. In fact by the time the last F-16 was delivered in 1987 they had already lost 2 F-16s. (one in 1986, one in 1987).
By 2010 when ‘Piece Drive’ was signed Pakistan was down to only 31 out of 40 F-16s due to crashes. Let’s not be under any illusions, Pakistan never had even 31 operational F-16 due to maintenance. At best, on any given day Pakistan had at best perhaps 21-25 operational F-16 and if things were really bad around 15 operational F-16s. Most Americans squadrons have around 75-80% aircraft availability, some squadrons have been cut in half due to maintenance issues at spares.
As for Pakistan flying hours, we can simply look at the F-16.Net data-base and look at photos of Pakistani pilots and their insignia but let’s keep in mind Pakistan is and always was a poor country with corruption that was under US embargo for over a decade. Pakistan has a very large military as well as a large Air Force with other aircraft other then F-16s that it needs to allocate money to, so to think that Pakistani pilots were or are clocking high flight hours is a falsehood. Money doesn’t fall out of the sky and Pakistan needs a lot of it to not only maintain its large military but to keep the country running.
The majority of Pakistani F-16 pilots don’t even have 2,000 flight hours, including even Vice Marshals and Wing Commanders with probably over a decade of flying. According to F-16.Net only 13 pilots have 2,000 flight hours or more, only Aamir Masood has 3,000 hours. The data base appears incomplete though because I cannot find some Pakistani pilots including Noman Ali, or the one that died recently in a crash.
Here is a list of Pakistani pilots and their hours. Not that impressive:
The minimum flight hours for NATO pilots is 180 hours annually. Many NATO pilots get 240+ hours per year. Most pilots spend about 10-20+ years in service meaning by the time NATO pilots retire they have anywhere 1,800-3,600+ or 2,400-4,800+ hours depending on years of service and which country they serve. Majority of Pakistani pilots only have 1,000 hours even after they retire. It’s safe to say many of those pilots probably served at least 10 years so the the average Pakistani pilot gets at most 100 hours annually, maybe even 50 hours if they spend 20 years in service. These are abysmal numbers, and the Pakistani “low” crash rate is not that low considering they don’t fly much and have, in fact, actually crashed 20% of their original F-16 fleet by 2010.
For 27 years Pakistan never operated more then 40 F-16. In fact by the time the last F-16 was delivered in 1987 they had already lost 2 F-16s. (one in 1986, one in 1987).
By 2010 when ‘Piece Drive’ was signed Pakistan was down to only 31 out of 40 F-16s due to crashes. Let’s not be under any illusions, Pakistan never had even 31 operational F-16 due to maintenance. At best, on any given day Pakistan had at best perhaps 21-25 operational F-16 and if things were really bad around 15 operational F-16s. Most Americans squadrons have around 75-80% aircraft availability, some squadrons have been cut in half due to maintenance issues at spares.
As for Pakistan flying hours, we can simply look at the F-16.Net data-base and look at photos of Pakistani pilots and their insignia but let’s keep in mind Pakistan is and always was a poor country with corruption that was under US embargo for over a decade. Pakistan has a very large military as well as a large Air Force with other aircraft other then F-16s that it needs to allocate money to, so to think that Pakistani pilots were or are clocking high flight hours is a falsehood. Money doesn’t fall out of the sky and Pakistan needs a lot of it to not only maintain its large military but to keep the country running.
The majority of Pakistani F-16 pilots don’t even have 2,000 flight hours, including even Vice Marshals and Wing Commanders with probably over a decade of flying. According to F-16.Net only 13 pilots have 2,000 flight hours or more, only Aamir Masood has 3,000 hours. The data base appears incomplete though because I cannot find some Pakistani pilots including Noman Ali, or the one that died recently in a crash.
Here is a list of Pakistani pilots and their hours. Not that impressive:
The minimum flight hours for NATO pilots is 180 hours annually. Many NATO pilots get 240+ hours per year. Most pilots spend about 10-20+ years in service meaning by the time NATO pilots retire they have anywhere 1,800-3,600+ or 2,400-4,800+ hours depending on years of service and which country they serve. Majority of Pakistani pilots only have 1,000 hours even after they retire. It’s safe to say many of those pilots probably served at least 10 years so the the average Pakistani pilot gets at most 100 hours annually, maybe even 50 hours if they spend 20 years in service. These are abysmal numbers, and the Pakistani “low” crash rate is not that low considering they don’t fly much and have, in fact, actually crashed 20% of their original F-16 fleet by 2010.
Bravo!! Excellent analysis.I wanted to expand to this and give proof of F-16 pilot flying hours and real inventory. Pakistan always had very few F-16s. Pakistan initially signed a contract for 40 F-16, it received them between 1983-1987. By 1997 8 of the F-16 were lost in crashes, accidents/shoot downs. Then in 2010 Pakistan received a batch of 18 F-16s and in 2014 they received 13 more.
For 27 years Pakistan never operated more then 40 F-16. In fact by the time the last F-16 was delivered in 1987 they had already lost 2 F-16s. (one in 1986, one in 1987).
By 2010 when ‘Piece Drive’ was signed Pakistan was down to only 31 out of 40 F-16s due to crashes. Let’s not be under any illusions, Pakistan never had even 31 operational F-16 due to maintenance. At best, on any given day Pakistan had at best perhaps 21-25 operational F-16 and if things were really bad around 15 operational F-16s. Most Americans squadrons have around 75-80% aircraft availability, some squadrons have been cut in half due to maintenance issues at spares.
As for Pakistan flying hours, we can simply look at the F-16.Net data-base and look at photos of Pakistani pilots and their insignia but let’s keep in mind Pakistan is and always was a poor country with corruption that was under US embargo for over a decade. Pakistan has a very large military as well as a large Air Force with other aircraft other then F-16s that it needs to allocate money to, so to think that Pakistani pilots were or are clocking high flight hours is a falsehood. Money doesn’t fall out of the sky and Pakistan needs a lot of it to not only maintain its large military but to keep the country running.
The majority of Pakistani F-16 pilots don’t even have 2,000 flight hours, including even Vice Marshals and Wing Commanders with probably over a decade of flying. According to F-16.Net only 13 pilots have 2,000 flight hours or more, only Aamir Masood has 3,000 hours. The data base appears incomplete though because I cannot find some Pakistani pilots including Noman Ali, or the one that died recently in a crash.
Here is a list of Pakistani pilots and their hours. Not that impressive:
View attachment 16829
The minimum flight hours for NATO pilots is 180 hours annually. Many NATO pilots get 240+ hours per year. Most pilots spend about 10-20+ years in service meaning by the time NATO pilots retire they have anywhere 1,800-3,600+ or 2,400-4,800+ hours depending on years of service and which country they serve. Majority of Pakistani pilots only have 1,000 hours even after they retire. It’s safe to say many of those pilots probably served at least 10 years so the the average Pakistani pilot gets at most 100 hours annually, maybe even 50 hours if they spend 20 years in service. These are abysmal numbers, and the Pakistani “low” crash rate is not that low considering they don’t fly much and have, in fact, actually crashed 20% of their original F-16 fleet by 2010.
We have been flying RD33 and its latest variants for quite some time now, and it is 500-1000 hours at most.
The Su30mki line has capacity of 12 aircrafts a year and that's why we are buying 12 aircrafts, not 10 not 18.
It's pretty open here.
And for the MLU , or where and in what condition Jordan got the aircrafts, maybe you start reading a bit about the MLU history yourself and stop depending on other lie peddlers, maybe we have a hope afterall lol
Good one, Keep posting such analysis for benefit and clarity of othesI wanted to expand to this and give proof of F-16 pilot flying hours and real inventory. Pakistan always had very few F-16s. Pakistan initially signed a contract for 40 F-16, it received them between 1983-1987. By 1997 8 of the F-16 were lost in crashes, accidents/shoot downs. Then in 2010 Pakistan received a batch of 18 F-16s and in 2014 they received 13 more.
For 27 years Pakistan never operated more then 40 F-16. In fact by the time the last F-16 was delivered in 1987 they had already lost 2 F-16s. (one in 1986, one in 1987).
By 2010 when ‘Piece Drive’ was signed Pakistan was down to only 31 out of 40 F-16s due to crashes. Let’s not be under any illusions, Pakistan never had even 31 operational F-16 due to maintenance. At best, on any given day Pakistan had at best perhaps 21-25 operational F-16 and if things were really bad around 15 operational F-16s. Most Americans squadrons have around 75-80% aircraft availability, some squadrons have been cut in half due to maintenance issues at spares.
As for Pakistan flying hours, we can simply look at the F-16.Net data-base and look at photos of Pakistani pilots and their insignia but let’s keep in mind Pakistan is and always was a poor country with corruption that was under US embargo for over a decade. Pakistan has a very large military as well as a large Air Force with other aircraft other then F-16s that it needs to allocate money to, so to think that Pakistani pilots were or are clocking high flight hours is a falsehood. Money doesn’t fall out of the sky and Pakistan needs a lot of it to not only maintain its large military but to keep the country running.
The majority of Pakistani F-16 pilots don’t even have 2,000 flight hours, including even Vice Marshals and Wing Commanders with probably over a decade of flying. According to F-16.Net only 13 pilots have 2,000 flight hours or more, only Aamir Masood has 3,000 hours. The data base appears incomplete though because I cannot find some Pakistani pilots including Noman Ali, or the one that died recently in a crash.
Here is a list of Pakistani pilots and their hours. Not that impressive:
View attachment 16829
The minimum flight hours for NATO pilots is 180 hours annually. Many NATO pilots get 240+ hours per year. Most pilots spend about 10-20+ years in service meaning by the time NATO pilots retire they have anywhere 1,800-3,600+ or 2,400-4,800+ hours depending on years of service and which country they serve. Majority of Pakistani pilots only have 1,000 hours even after they retire. It’s safe to say many of those pilots probably served at least 10 years so the the average Pakistani pilot gets at most 100 hours annually, maybe even 50 hours if they spend 20 years in service. These are abysmal numbers, and the Pakistani “low” crash rate is not that low considering they don’t fly much and have, in fact, actually crashed 20% of their original F-16 fleet by 2010.
Really goodI wanted to expand to this and give proof of F-16 pilot flying hours and real inventory. Pakistan always had very few F-16s. Pakistan initially signed a contract for 40 F-16, it received them between 1983-1987. By 1997 8 of the F-16 were lost in crashes, accidents/shoot downs. Then in 2010 Pakistan received a batch of 18 F-16s and in 2014 they received 13 more.
For 27 years Pakistan never operated more then 40 F-16. In fact by the time the last F-16 was delivered in 1987 they had already lost 2 F-16s. (one in 1986, one in 1987).
By 2010 when ‘Piece Drive’ was signed Pakistan was down to only 31 out of 40 F-16s due to crashes. Let’s not be under any illusions, Pakistan never had even 31 operational F-16 due to maintenance. At best, on any given day Pakistan had at best perhaps 21-25 operational F-16 and if things were really bad around 15 operational F-16s. Most Americans squadrons have around 75-80% aircraft availability, some squadrons have been cut in half due to maintenance issues at spares.
As for Pakistan flying hours, we can simply look at the F-16.Net data-base and look at photos of Pakistani pilots and their insignia but let’s keep in mind Pakistan is and always was a poor country with corruption that was under US embargo for over a decade. Pakistan has a very large military as well as a large Air Force with other aircraft other then F-16s that it needs to allocate money to, so to think that Pakistani pilots were or are clocking high flight hours is a falsehood. Money doesn’t fall out of the sky and Pakistan needs a lot of it to not only maintain its large military but to keep the country running.
The majority of Pakistani F-16 pilots don’t even have 2,000 flight hours, including even Vice Marshals and Wing Commanders with probably over a decade of flying. According to F-16.Net only 13 pilots have 2,000 flight hours or more, only Aamir Masood has 3,000 hours. The data base appears incomplete though because I cannot find some Pakistani pilots including Noman Ali, or the one that died recently in a crash.
Here is a list of Pakistani pilots and their hours. Not that impressive:
View attachment 16829
The minimum flight hours for NATO pilots is 180 hours annually. Many NATO pilots get 240+ hours per year. Most pilots spend about 10-20+ years in service meaning by the time NATO pilots retire they have anywhere 1,800-3,600+ or 2,400-4,800+ hours depending on years of service and which country they serve. Majority of Pakistani pilots only have 1,000 hours even after they retire. It’s safe to say many of those pilots probably served at least 10 years so the the average Pakistani pilot gets at most 100 hours annually, maybe even 50 hours if they spend 20 years in service. These are abysmal numbers, and the Pakistani “low” crash rate is not that low considering they don’t fly much and have, in fact, actually crashed 20% of their original F-16 fleet by 2010.
How many bvrs can jf17 carry...
Any Pakistani friends ..
Do u have any photos of jf17 carrying 4 bvrs.....2wvrs with Centerline drop tank
Any Pakistani friends ..
Do u have any photos of jf17 carrying 4 bvrs.....2wvrs with Centerline drop tank
Airforce is working on other projects. As I said earlier,i don't know much about Jordanian f-16s.even with low flying hours,you can do well. It's not necessary to complete 1000 flying hours per year. We have great training facilities.one day,we have to retire f-16s too. Our focus is project azm.we want a twin engine jet with possible long range like su-35. Google search revealed 4000 flying hours for rd-33. I don't know how you estimated 600 hours for rd-93.
I didn't said 1000 hours a year. That's not possible. Usually NATO does 150-180 hours in a year, Russians do 120-130 hours a year, our Bisons do 100 hours a year, MKIs upwards of 200 hours a year.
Hours are important, as it involves important agreements regarding spares and support contracts with the OEM. You cannot fly more than the given number of hours left , without giving up support of the OEM.
If I say that your 13 ADF and 31 original AM/BM have little over 1000 hours left in their engines, it means that for operations extending upto 15-20 years since completion of MLU , it's not possible that they fly more than 60-70 hours a year.
On the RD93. It's derived from the RD33 series 3 engines actually. Unlike claimed to be derived from RD33MK which has Full Digital Authority Controls. And the claimed life of RD33 series 3 is 2000 hours according to OEM. But in actual service they do not last longer than 600-700 hours.
You may even ask your biradars in Malaysia who gave up Mig29 operations.
Obviously jf-17 program and project azm is to help airforce and we will retire all jets that don't have much life left. Anyway training facilities are awesome. If we go there and do a particular training,we would probably lost conciousness. Airforce superiority matters. First we should retire f-7s. I think mirage 3 is next.
How do you train well if you do not actually fly that much?
Even with the simulators in USA they fly so much. With a lack of that level of simulators available with respect to numbers of personal, how do you train ?
Flying a subsonic jet trainer even after OEM guarantee flight hours are over is one thing. Flying a fighter jet that way is another.
I understand your point. I think we fly mushaq and jf-17 more but during tension times,f-16 is available.