People's Liberation Army Air Force : News & Discussions
- Thread starter Aashish
- Start date
I'm referring to penetrating attacks inside Indian airspace using smart bombs. Such attacks are more reliable.
Anyway, what you are suggesting is something I agree with too. But you haven't understood the point I'm making.
I'm saying that while the IAF can operate against PLAAF with its full capabilities, PLAAF cannot do the same 'cause of the plateau's altitude. PLAAF aircraft operating from the plateau can only perform limited air defence. Strike missions can only be conducted with air refuelling at the cost of surprise or time or both.
Rafale with Meteor and hopefully Su-30 MKI with Astra 3 and R-37M(if we procure it) shall take out both JH-7A and H-6 even within your airspace.
There are 2 AESA radars.
One was the "RBE2-AA" prototype with American components and the other is called RBE2 AESA (or "AESA RBE2") with French components. The second one is the main production model. RBE2-AA has 838 TRMs, the main one has ~1000.
As per the French, the goal of the production AESA radar was 50% more than PESA. But they achieved 100% increase. So if PESA could do 75-80Km against 1m2 target, then double that would be 150-160Km.
There may now be a third radar with digital antennas for Rafale F4.
France begins Rafale F4 flight trials
France has launched flight trials of the latest F4 standard of the Dassault Rafale combat aircraft, the Ministry of the Armed Forces announced on 20 May.
www.janes.com
For the RBE2, the miracle is in its range. Even Thales didn't expect such a range! Before the RBE2's AESA antenna was actually built, the increase in range predicted by the removal of the PESA's lenses and the energy losses they entailed was of the order of 50%, and Thales, ever cautious in its contractual commitments, had committed itself to 40% on the basis of a prototype built with American T/R modules.
The range of the PESA on a 1 m^2 target was of the order of 80 km, like the RDY radar on the Mirage 2000. A 50% improvement would have given it a range of 120 km, but the UAE felt this was insufficient, as the range was less than that of its F-16 equipped with the AN/APG-80 radar. The UAE therefore asked for a 10% improvement in range, i.e. 132 km on a 1m^2 target (which gives the range of the AN/APG-80!). To achieve this, Dassault planned to change the cooling circuit pump to increase the radar's peak power to 14.4 kw (which shows that heat extraction is one of the limits of radar performance).
But when the RBE2 AESA was first tested, the range was double that of the PESA, i.e. 160 km on a 1 m^2 target.
That's the miracle. It's important to understand that this performance is superior to that of the F-35's AN/APG-81 radar!
The performance is so great that the space scanned is three times larger than expected, compared with a range of 120 km, so the tracks detected are three times more numerous and specific tests had to be carried out to check that the computer could cope with the extra workload and that this did not affect the fluidity of the presentations. But the computer stood up to it.
Does Rafale have any chance to detect J-20 via its AESA radar at BVR range?For the RBE2, the miracle is in its range. Even Thales didn't expect such a range! Before the RBE2's AESA antenna was actually built, the increase in range predicted by the removal of the PESA's lenses and the energy losses they entailed was of the order of 50%, and Thales, ever cautious in its contractual commitments, had committed itself to 40% on the basis of a prototype built with American T/R modules.
The range of the PESA on a 1 m^2 target was of the order of 80 km, like the RDY radar on the Mirage 2000. A 50% improvement would have given it a range of 120 km, but the UAE felt this was insufficient, as the range was less than that of its F-16 equipped with the AN/APG-80 radar. The UAE therefore asked for a 10% improvement in range, i.e. 132 km on a 1m^2 target (which gives the range of the AN/APG-80!). To achieve this, Dassault planned to change the cooling circuit pump to increase the radar's peak power to 14.4 kw (which shows that heat extraction is one of the limits of radar performance).
But when the RBE2 AESA was first tested, the range was double that of the PESA, i.e. 160 km on a 1 m^2 target.
That's the miracle. It's important to understand that this performance is superior to that of the F-35's AN/APG-81 radar!
This graph shows that for 1 m^2 the AN/APG-81 has a range of 80 NM, or 148 km.
The performance is so great that the space scanned is three times larger than expected, compared with a range of 120 km, so the tracks detected are three times more numerous and specific tests had to be carried out to check that the computer could cope with the extra workload and that this did not affect the fluidity of the presentations. But the computer stood up to it.
The canards aren't a problem during level flight, but when a missile's fired at it, the dance of the J-20 will see massive canard deflections and make the J-20 visible to the missile's seeker. That's the main problem with the canards.
For the RBE2, the miracle is in its range. Even Thales didn't expect such a range! Before the RBE2's AESA antenna was actually built, the increase in range predicted by the removal of the PESA's lenses and the energy losses they entailed was of the order of 50%, and Thales, ever cautious in its contractual commitments, had committed itself to 40% on the basis of a prototype built with American T/R modules.
The range of the PESA on a 1 m^2 target was of the order of 80 km, like the RDY radar on the Mirage 2000. A 50% improvement would have given it a range of 120 km, but the UAE felt this was insufficient, as the range was less than that of its F-16 equipped with the AN/APG-80 radar. The UAE therefore asked for a 10% improvement in range, i.e. 132 km on a 1m^2 target (which gives the range of the AN/APG-80!). To achieve this, Dassault planned to change the cooling circuit pump to increase the radar's peak power to 14.4 kw (which shows that heat extraction is one of the limits of radar performance).
But when the RBE2 AESA was first tested, the range was double that of the PESA, i.e. 160 km on a 1 m^2 target.
That's the miracle. It's important to understand that this performance is superior to that of the F-35's AN/APG-81 radar!
This graph shows that for 1 m^2 the AN/APG-81 has a range of 80 NM, or 148 km.
The performance is so great that the space scanned is three times larger than expected, compared with a range of 120 km, so the tracks detected are three times more numerous and specific tests had to be carried out to check that the computer could cope with the extra workload and that this did not affect the fluidity of the presentations. But the computer stood up to it.
So, all this while I had overestimated the performance of the AESA.
The comparison with APG-81 is pointless, it will get a range improvement with the TR-3 upgrade. As you know, the F-35 is still a product in development.
The public information I can find does not have the difference you are claiming between the two radars, do you have any evidence for what you are saying, all I can find is that the French used American components in the initial experimentsThere are 2 AESA radars.
One was the "RBE2-AA" prototype with American components and the other is called RBE2 AESA (or "AESA RBE2") with French components. The second one is the main production model. RBE2-AA has 838 TRMs, the main one has ~1000.
As per the French, the goal of the production AESA radar was 50% more than PESA. But they achieved 100% increase. So if PESA could do 75-80Km against 1m2 target, then double that would be 150-160Km.
There may now be a third radar with digital antennas for Rafale F4.
As noted by Dassault in January 2019, the F4-standard will include enhancements to the Thales RBE2 active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar,France begins Rafale F4 flight trials
France has launched flight trials of the latest F4 standard of the Dassault Rafale combat aircraft, the Ministry of the Armed Forces announced on 20 May.
To be honest, I don't think Dassault engineers are allowed to disclose information on the internet，Do you have any proof of what you saidFor the RBE2, the miracle is in its range. Even Thales didn't expect such a range! Before the RBE2's AESA antenna was actually built, the increase in range predicted by the removal of the PESA's lenses and the energy losses they entailed was of the order of 50%, and Thales, ever cautious in its contractual commitments, had committed itself to 40% on the basis of a prototype built with American T/R modules.
The range of the PESA on a 1 m^2 target was of the order of 80 km, like the RDY radar on the Mirage 2000. A 50% improvement would have given it a range of 120 km, but the UAE felt this was insufficient, as the range was less than that of its F-16 equipped with the AN/APG-80 radar. The UAE therefore asked for a 10% improvement in range, i.e. 132 km on a 1m^2 target (which gives the range of the AN/APG-80!). To achieve this, Dassault planned to change the cooling circuit pump to increase the radar's peak power to 14.4 kw (which shows that heat extraction is one of the limits of radar performance).
But when the RBE2 AESA was first tested, the range was double that of the PESA, i.e. 160 km on a 1 m^2 target.
That's the miracle. It's important to understand that this performance is superior to that of the F-35's AN/APG-81 radar!
This graph shows that for 1 m^2 the AN/APG-81 has a range of 80 NM, or 148 km.
The performance is so great that the space scanned is three times larger than expected, compared with a range of 120 km, so the tracks detected are three times more numerous and specific tests had to be carried out to check that the computer could cope with the extra workload and that this did not affect the fluidity of the presentations. But the computer stood up to it.
What you said in Doklam is true, but in Aksai Chin, China can rely on airports in Xinjiang, and in South Tibet, you can rely on airports in Sichuan and Kunming
So corrected...
Against 1m2:
APG-66 detection range is 68Km.
APG-68 = 80Km
RBE2 PESA = 80Km
RBE2-AA = 106Km
APG-83 = 116Km
Bars-1 = 126Km
Uttam Mk1 = 126Km design goal
APG-80 = 132Km
KLJ-7A V2 (Type 1478) = 134Km
APG-79 = 150Km
Irbis-E = 151Km
APG-81 = 148Km for now... Could cross 200Km with the TR-3 upgrade.
RBE2 AESA = 160Km... Double that of PESA, as per advertisement.
APG-77 = 255(?)Km
May not have the same detection probability.
Uttam Mk1 makes sense to have Bars as the benchmark. APG-83 was calculated from the advertised 370km range.
Type 1475/A could be a family of radars meant for the J-10C and/or J-11BG, J-15B and J-16. Perhaps even the J-20.
@LX1111 Are there much details about Chinese radars?
Against 1m2:
APG-66 detection range is 68Km.
APG-68 = 80Km
RBE2 PESA = 80Km
RBE2-AA = 106Km
APG-83 = 116Km
Bars-1 = 126Km
Uttam Mk1 = 126Km design goal
APG-80 = 132Km
KLJ-7A V2 (Type 1478) = 134Km
APG-79 = 150Km
Irbis-E = 151Km
APG-81 = 148Km for now... Could cross 200Km with the TR-3 upgrade.
RBE2 AESA = 160Km... Double that of PESA, as per advertisement.
APG-77 = 255(?)Km
May not have the same detection probability.
Uttam Mk1 makes sense to have Bars as the benchmark. APG-83 was calculated from the advertised 370km range.
Type 1475/A could be a family of radars meant for the J-10C and/or J-11BG, J-15B and J-16. Perhaps even the J-20.
@LX1111 Are there much details about Chinese radars?
RBE2-AA program started in 2002 with American modules, AESA RBE2 started in 2004 with UMS modules.
RBE2 – AESA for the RAFALE - Defense Update:
Thales has developed the RBE2 AESA, an enhancement of the multi-function radar installed on the Naval Rafale.
defense-update.com
Active Electronically Scanned Array - AESA RBE2 radar
The AESA RBE2 is the very high performance radar for the omnirole Rafale combat aircraft. It has been designed in close collaboration with Dassault Aviation and DGA -French defence procurement agency- to meet expectations of Air Forces by combining advanced fire control radar detection and...
"AESA RBE2". Not "RBE2-AA".
India also manufactures these modules for Rafale. So definitely not American tech.
BEL delivers modules to Thales for radars on Rafale fighter jets
"The modules produced in India (by BEL) are then integrated with the RBE2 radar in France. BEL and Thales teams are, thus working closely to transfer advanced technological know-how," the Thales's statement said.
V Gowtama, Chairman and Managing Director, BEL, said, "We are happy to be associated with Thales in delivering the transmit/receive modules for the prestigious Rafale programme. The Thales and BEL teams ensured that the ToT (transfer of technology) happened seamlessly."
"We have augmented our facility in Bangalore to meet the requirements of manufacturing this state-of-the-art sub-system. We look forward to working together on many more such challenging assignments with Thales," he stated.
All these bases are too far. The Americans are facing the same problem in Taiwan. Okinawa is 600Km away. Any US carriers will also have to operate from at least 500Km away. So the time to target is too long.
For example, if you are going on the offensive or defending an area, then close air support is required in just 10 minutes, because any offensive operation takes only 10-20 minutes. But if your base is 600Km away, then the transit alone will require 40+ minutes. So you will be too late. And if you come too early, then there's no surprise.
Indian bases are just 60-150Km away. Any support will come within minutes.
You can't see that with your eyes. When deflection happens, it becomes more visible on radar because the canard is moving while other parts like nose and wing are not.
For example, if a sniper is perfectly camouflaged, then you can't see him. But you can when he waves a hand, even if the rest of the body is still. Same concept.
So even mechanical scan seekers can see such deflections, never mind AESA seekers.
May not be as capable as the F-22's radar.
APG-63(v)2, 3, APG-79 and APG-82 are all from Raytheon and mostly for refits and exports, so they are not as capable as Northrop Grumman's APG-77 and 81.
APG-82 is basically a renamed APG-63(v)4. The difference between 3 and 4 is the addition of APG-79's processor to the 3.
APG-63(v)2's range is 145Km against 1m2. So 82 may at least be 200Km.
It's not according to the advertising, it's during the operational tests of the radar at CESTA, that it was reported that the radar had a range double that of the PESA. This was in an official report that was circulated at the time, but can no longer be found. It was probably released inadvertently.
But at the time, on the other website where we all were, I gave the link. And that's why it has stayed in the memory of the forumers here.
Last edited:
This will be easy to do when the radar will be multi-static. That's why the priority for F4 and F5 is to increase the Rafale's connectivity.