Does Spain has good experience & history in making quality subs (or) are they newbies?
Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
- Start date
Newbies. S-80 Plus is their first sub. And the previous S-80 is basically the French Scorpene which they jointly developed. But the S-80 Plus is sufficient for the IN.
The first sub has already been commissioned. So the potential 10-15 year gap between their first sub and ours is enough to kill their current newbie label.
Good example of why the Germans cannot be trusted.
Lack of backbone. Easily influenced by others. An internal security situation can be blown out of proportions to halt defense trade.
Lack of backbone. Easily influenced by others. An internal security situation can be blown out of proportions to halt defense trade.
Unfortunately for RST , TKMS probably doesn't import from China anything that goes into their line of submarines .
But let me test my predictive capabilities here . I hereby state that one can expect the exact opposite of whatever it is RST predicts.
I've observed this phenomena over the years which is the reason OST although retired still has a record of 7-8/10 while RST's record is an abysmal ... ok let's not go there.
Hence we'd be going in for TKMS for Project 75 I .
But let me test my predictive capabilities here . I hereby state that one can expect the exact opposite of whatever it is RST predicts.
I've observed this phenomena over the years which is the reason OST although retired still has a record of 7-8/10 while RST's record is an abysmal ... ok let's not go there.
Hence we'd be going in for TKMS for Project 75 I .
Nearly noob they are.
Before S80 (now called S80+ because obliged to add a hull part...) they built agosta subs in the 80's. Nothing between except a bad experience with France around Scorpene. Scorpene lessons were badly understood it seems.
German has a far more greater experience. nearly unique in the world.
Of all the predictions I made, was most unsure of S80+ winning this tender. However with Pedro Sanchez and Modi having great one-on-one talk, we are getting close.......
Well, for one, the weapons fit is largely going to be the same for both.
The IN is reportedly not satisfied with the F-21 torpedo from NG so it'll either be long-time favourite BlackShark (apparently talks have restarted with Leonardo since the ban was lifted) or the German DM2A4.
The latter is operational on both S-80 and Type-212/4 so for cost reasons the IN could possibly go for it.
I'd wager NSM as the standard AShM/LACM replacing antique Harpoon Block 2 (+ indigenous NASM-MR, SLCM, Brahmos-M, of course)
Off-topic but are we getting NSM for our Sea Hawks or not? The IN has bought Mk 54 LWTs for them but no word on AShM so far...
The IN is reportedly not satisfied with the F-21 torpedo from NG so it'll either be long-time favourite BlackShark (apparently talks have restarted with Leonardo since the ban was lifted) or the German DM2A4.
The latter is operational on both S-80 and Type-212/4 so for cost reasons the IN could possibly go for it.
I'd wager NSM as the standard AShM/LACM replacing antique Harpoon Block 2 (+ indigenous NASM-MR, SLCM, Brahmos-M, of course)
Off-topic but are we getting NSM for our Sea Hawks or not? The IN has bought Mk 54 LWTs for them but no word on AShM so far...
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Why not buy from both Spain & Germany......Order can be divided with each getting 6 Subs for a total of 12 for Indian Navy.
3 different types of SSK is a lot of variety. We have Kalvari. We will have our P76. And whatever happens to P75I.
3 different classes. Apart from the obvious economics, there is an issue of skill.
A break in Submarine manufacturing will be hugely problematic. Once you loose the skilled manpower, you start from 0 again. That is extremely cost intrusive.
So unless you can guarantee a purchase order of 12 submarines over 20 years, a new submarine production line is not feasible.
The max numbers I can see from P75I is 12 subs.
That is not enough for 2 lines in 20 year time period. Unless we change our requirements from 18 modern SSK to something like 24 modern SSKs.... It's difficult to imagine.
Where are the funds going to come from?
The GoI has already cut SSN numbers down to 2 from 6. That shows they have little appetite for big-ticket deals right now.
Plus we are negotiating for 3 Scorpene Batch 2 boats .Those will cost upwards of $500m each, excluding ISE.
P-75I itself is estimated at $5bn so we are pretty much maxxed out right now for any more subs.
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There are enough funds stop 24/7 crying about we don't have funds this and that....95% of SSN will be indigenous so all money spend will be in rupee not foreign currency.... Govt can always print more.
SSN number are not cut.....We want a product comparable to western countries so there will be increment in subsequent subs after initial two.... Many technologies will be mature by than.
Even if you say that the funds for SSN will not come out of the IN budget, the cost for just 2 is INR 40,000 crore. Add to that the other SSK programs.
Tell that Ms. Sitharaman who watches inflation like a hawk. This policy has kept interest rates and EMIs high for a while now. No sign of that changing anytime soon.
The GoI does not care about tech superiority. That's the IN's job. Considering how many times MoF declined IAC-II proposals, the IN must have pitched the 2+2+2 solution as the last resort. Fortunately, the govt agreed to it.
A better option is to pick one and build 12, divided between two shipyards. But that would delay indigenous SSK.
I guess a contract for Ahmedabad Metro or the bullet train.
I hope S80 to be better, as it is heavier and AIP fitted.
But it is also more costly, and USA dependant (US weapon system at least).
And since it became "+", so with a non anticipated hull length, it is not as optimised as intended (more weight, more drag and same engine for exemple).
= Economical, tactical, financial loss.
A news that may be nteresting about french product (for Scorpene ?) :
A successor to the exocet SM39 is on track.
SM40.... probably a MM30 block 3 derivative, with a fuel engine instead of a powder one, so increased range and higher stealth.
www.meretmarine.com
A successor to the exocet SM39 is on track.
SM40.... probably a MM30 block 3 derivative, with a fuel engine instead of a powder one, so increased range and higher stealth.
Sous-marins : MBDA travaille à la succession du missile antinavire Exocet SM39 | Mer et Marine
Mis en service il y a bientôt 40 ans, le SM39, version du célèbre missile antinavire Exocet conçue pour être tirée depuis un sous-marin en plongée, ar...
a MM40 block 3 derivative (and not MM30).A news that may be nteresting about french product (for Scorpene ?) :
A successor to the exocet SM39 is on track.
SM40.... probably a MM30 block 3 derivative, with a fuel engine instead of a powder one, so increased range and higher stealth.
Sous-marins : MBDA travaille à la succession du missile antinavire Exocet SM39 | Mer et Marine
Mis en service il y a bientôt 40 ans, le SM39, version du célèbre missile antinavire Exocet conçue pour être tirée depuis un sous-marin en plongée, ar...
Sorry