Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions


Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail (Retd)

@vstol Jockey @randomradio @Milspec @Picdelamirand-oil

Reads like a post from PDF.

The usual story about Op Funny Retort. Then talks about the alleged superiority of a capability that they don't have (AESA+PL-15). Bringing up irrelevant things like turning fights (while ignoring the lack of HMDS and a capable WVR missile to complement it in the PAF fleet). And finally underestimating the capabilities of the Rafale.

He has completely ignored the fact that the Rafale is a battle-tested aircraft and the French have likely provided additional training required to beat the systems we are facing, thereby significantly reducing the time it will take to make it operational. And the fact that PAF is yet to start working on an answer to the Rafale, never mind the fact that they are yet to find answers to all our other aircraft in the fleet.
 
Reads like a post from PDF.

The usual story about Op Funny Retort. Then talks about the alleged superiority of a capability that they don't have (AESA+PL-15). Bringing up irrelevant things like turning fights (while ignoring the lack of HMDS and a capable WVR missile to complement it in the PAF fleet). And finally underestimating the capabilities of the Rafale.

He has completely ignored the fact that the Rafale is a battle-tested aircraft and the French have likely provided additional training required to beat the systems we are facing, thereby significantly reducing the time it will take to make it operational. And the fact that PAF is yet to start working on an answer to the Rafale, never mind the fact that they are yet to find answers to all our other aircraft in the fleet.
But don't you know the great PAF pilots have already flown Qatari Rafales and they already know the weakness'/s
 
A technically downgraded F35 to UAE and Bahrain actually seems a possibility after the peace deals. Together they might rake a 100+ order, offsetting any possible losses from the exit of Turkey from the program.

I think the Chinese are going to turn Iran into a major military threat considering the amount of money they have planned to invest in merely a 5-year period. With just a $280B investment into their oil industry in 5 years, one can imagine how much the gains will actually be during the same time. India and Russia will also have to follow-up with investments in order to counter China's influence in Iran, so that would mean more money for Iran.

The militarisation of the ME is just beginning.
 
I think the Chinese are going to turn Iran into a major military threat considering the amount of money they have planned to invest in merely a 5-year period. With just a $280B investment into their oil industry in 5 years, one can imagine how much the gains will actually be during the same time. India and Russia will also have to follow-up with investments in order to counter China's influence in Iran, so that would mean more money for Iran.

The militarisation of the ME is just beginning.
Easy on paper, but will be tough to execute.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bali78
Since when Indian pilots were training in France?

In 2 years we ll have 2 squad s inducted.

Hopefully next '36' orders placed.
 

Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail (Retd)

@vstol Jockey @randomradio @Milspec @Picdelamirand-oil
Some of it is correct.

The crux of the argument being MKI not being able to communicate I think is incorrect.
The MKI very much should have been able to track the Pakistani jets beyond the border. Following are my inputs.

1> For IAF it has never been free for all, even in Kargil war , Mig29's were able to lock on to the F16's with it's older Phazatron radar, and R27ER but did not lob a missile. Even now I think rules of engagement from IAF did not clear IAF to shoot beyond the border.

2> If the above was not the case it would be the known efficacy of the R77, RVV-AE MKI's were carrying. What has been a travesty and what I have been yelling for the last decade is India is using a 3 decade old BVR system for the MKI. the RVV AE, since it's induction Russians have proposed reconfiguration with RVV PD - Ramjet model, K77M Aesa Dual pulse motor Model, And the K77ME Aesa Ramjet. Indian airforce sat on its *censored* not inducting any of them, neither looking at the Derby ER, all the while derby was qualified on MKI's in early 2000's.
We kept hearing about IAF looking to integrate Meteor on MKI, and eventually MBDA said a flat out no to IAF. With a once a year test fire of Astra 1 and II, and general delivery rate on any project from DRDO, we knew very well the missile wont be ready in time to be inducted to replace the RVV A but IAF slept on it as long as it could, and guess what it showed.

3> In testing R27ET/ER combination has always been superior to the R77, and IAF needs to go back to the R27ER/ET combo untill it finds the right upgrades for the MKI.

4> SU30MKI - Was inducted starting 2002. That is close to 2 decades ago, and the aircraft has not seen a single capability upgrade. Yes, we have put on MFD and cleaned the cockpit, but there has been no change in sensors, no change in Radar, no new a2a missiles inducted. There is no clarity on upgrades of the system, that is a big hole in our inventory, a 272 twin-engined Heavy combat aircraft size hole in our warfighting capability.

In closing, we are in a state where the economy is going through a pretty rough patch now. When we had the opportunity, we squandered the opportunities by spending money on needless shit on things that would let us fight the war that we want to fight rather than the things we need to win the war we need to fight .

We kept wasting time on negotiating ShinMaywa US-2 than the Falcon Awacs which were actually needed. We kept negotiating Apache all the while flying with obsolete AAMs.
We used Spice bombkits in balakot and complained lack of BDA all the while the KH59 Kingbolts are sitting in storage.
 
I think the Chinese are going to turn Iran into a major military threat considering the amount of money they have planned to invest in merely a 5-year period. With just a $280B investment into their oil industry in 5 years, one can imagine how much the gains will actually be during the same time. India and Russia will also have to follow-up with investments in order to counter China's influence in Iran, so that would mean more money for Iran.

The militarisation of the ME is just beginning.
There is a new alliance of countries in the making lead by China. These include NoKo,Pakistan and Iran as the first line of defence of rogue nations. Provided the trajectory Turkey and Qatar might end up joining the alliance but will play all the sides. The Chinese still haven't tried to court Venezuela and other smaller countries in South America. Africa is still not influential enough. Russians will ditch the Chinese it will be a repeat of World war 2 . Once the Chinese act funny with Russians the Russians will switch teams. They are waiting for it..
What is stopping Chinese from selling their fighter jets and other military equipment to Iran? Iran's air force is a joke
Arms embargo. That's why Iran makes f5 clones. Though it has been lifted nowt he Iranians will buy Russian aircrafts before going for Chinese...
 
There is a new alliance of countries in the making lead by China. These include NoKo,Pakistan and Iran as the first line of defence of rogue nations. Provided the trajectory Turkey and Qatar might end up joining the alliance but will play all the sides. The Chinese still haven't tried to court Venezuela and other smaller countries in South America. Africa is still not influential enough. Russians will ditch the Chinese it will be a repeat of World war 2 . Once the Chinese act funny with Russians the Russians will switch teams. They are waiting for it..

Arms embargo. That's why Iran makes f5 clones. Though it has been lifted nowt he Iranians will buy Russian aircrafts before going for Chinese...
Biggest defense of China is the US. US interests in China surpasses everything else.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AbRaj and Nikhil
There is a new alliance of countries in the making lead by China. These include NoKo,Pakistan and Iran as the first line of defence of rogue nations. Provided the trajectory Turkey and Qatar might end up joining the alliance but will play all the sides. The Chinese still haven't tried to court Venezuela and other smaller countries in South America. Africa is still not influential enough. Russians will ditch the Chinese it will be a repeat of World war 2 . Once the Chinese act funny with Russians the Russians will switch teams. They are waiting for it..

Arms embargo. That's why Iran makes f5 clones. Though it has been lifted nowt he Iranians will buy Russian aircrafts before going for Chinese...

Do we have any idea how dependent India has become on China, Irrespective of the bluster on the borders, have you seen the PM directly confronting the Chinese. When XI visits even 56 inch chested PM has to play jhula with him.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, we might have some tactical advantages over the chinese in some mountain in the LAC, strategically, we are nowhere. Forget ball park we are not even in the same game as they are.
 
2> If the above was not the case it would be the known efficacy of the R77, RVV-AE MKI's were carrying. What has been a travesty and what I have been yelling for the last decade is India is using a 3 decade old BVR system for the MKI. the RVV AE, since it's induction Russians have proposed reconfiguration with RVV PD - Ramjet model, K77M Aesa Dual pulse motor Model, And the K77ME Aesa Ramjet. Indian airforce sat on its *censored* not inducting any of them, neither looking at the Derby ER, all the while derby was qualified on MKI's in early 2000's.
We kept hearing about IAF looking to integrate Meteor on MKI, and eventually MBDA said a flat out no to IAF. With a once a year test fire of Astra 1 and II, and general delivery rate on any project from DRDO, we knew very well the missile wont be ready in time to be inducted to replace the RVV A but IAF slept on it as long as it could, and guess what it showed.

During that period, a better missile than the RVV-AE didn't exist. The RVV-SD showed up only after 2015, possibly closer to 2017, but it was in the same class as the Astra Mk1, so was likely dismissed. The first batch of RVV-SD arrived in India as of 2+ months ago though. Astra came in last year as LRIP. IIRC, 150 are in operation. All those new fangled missiles from Russia are not ready yet. The K-77 is yet to be configured for Flankers, and the export model is not yet available.

But the slow decision making with Derby ER was the most disappointing. The IAF probably delayed it because they were holding on to the hope of introducing the Meteor instead, for both LCA and MKI, would have been good for standardisation with the Rafale. Delaying the Derby ER wasn't a good idea. I am not really bothered about it not being present during Funny Retort, but we should have been operating it today.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: JustCurious
During that period, a better missile than the RVV-AE didn't exist. The RVV-SD showed up only after 2015, possibly closer to 2017, but it was in the same class as the Astra Mk1, so was likely dismissed. The first batch of RVV-SD arrived in India as of 2+ months ago though. Astra came in last year as LRIP. IIRC, 150 are in operation. All those new fangled missiles from Russia are not ready yet. The K-77 is yet to be configured for Flankers, and the export model is not yet available.

But the slow decision making with Derby ER was the most disappointing. The IAF probably delayed it because they were holding on to the hope of introducing the Meteor instead, for both LCA and MKI, would have been good for standardisation with the Rafale. Delaying the Derby ER wasn't a good idea. I am not really bothered about it not being present during Funny Retort, but we should have been operating it today.
RVV -SD came in at 09 and was offered right when Mig29ovts Masquerading as Mig35's were offered.

As far as K77M your info is wrong, It was offered to India during development as part of the Pakfa program. But then again IAF is IAF, rest better not said on a forum.
 
RVV -SD came in at 09 and was offered right when Mig29ovts Masquerading as Mig35's were offered.

What you're referring to is the LRIP deliveries, which began in 2011. And this was for the Russian version and not the follow-up export version. And they took a long time fixing all the problems associated with it, hence the long time for induction. The primary order for large scale induction came only in 2015. It wasn't ready when the IAF ordered 500 RVV-AEs in 2011.

So 2015-16 is when the missile was truly introduced. Kinda like how our primary order for LCA is still in process.

Anyway the IAF was pretty sure about moving away from Russian missiles in the long run. That's why the choice was between the Derby and Meteor. Russian export grade stuff isn't very good.

As far as K77M your info is wrong, It was offered to India during development as part of the Pakfa program. But then again IAF is IAF, rest better not said on a forum.

K-77M has been made for Su-57, and is still in the process of being introduced. It is yet to see full scale introduction, never mind spin-off variants for Flankers.

Yes, it was offered alongside PAK FA, but it wasn't even in flight testing at the time. It entered flight testing in 2015. IIRC, it cleared state trials in 2019 and right now it's in the process of achieving IOC. We have to wait for an export version, which is likely still in testing. I won't be surprised if it hasn't even begun testing. The Russians always make an export grade variant after the main variant is in service. So no K-77Ms yet for the IAF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JustCurious
Biggest defense of China is the US. US interests in China surpasses everything else.
Sab mile hue hain ji😅
Bas samay samay ki baat hai.

Iran is potentially a very large market for Chinese weapons, which they can exchange for oil.
The independent and interfering Ayotollas won't be actually easy to deal with. That's one reason why no major Russian sale has happened yet. China will find Iranian interests against its interests not only in Gulf but even in Mediterranean. Won't be so easy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JustCurious
I think the Chinese are going to turn Iran into a major military threat considering the amount of money they have planned to invest in merely a 5-year period. With just a $280B investment into their oil industry in 5 years, one can imagine how much the gains will actually be during the same time. India and Russia will also have to follow-up with investments in order to counter China's influence in Iran, so that would mean more money for Iran.

The militarisation of the ME is just beginning.
Looking at how the things are going, even if we don't have a war, China won't be able to invest such a huge amount of money in Iran. Chinese economy is in mess, their financial institutions are going bankrupt, their backbone of economy i.e exports are facing contraction die to trade war which is only going to intensify thanks to global outrage against China and on top of all these China is facing several natural disasters like pandemics, flood and famine. In next 5 years these problems will only increase. I don't think China would be able to fulfill its promise. In reality China has walked into a trap in Iran.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JustCurious
The independent and interfering Ayotollas won't be actually easy to deal with. That's one reason why no major Russian sale has happened yet.

That's because of a combination of being broke and under sanctions. The Iranians have always bought to the extent that they can afford. Like the Kilos, T-72s and S-300s.

China will find Iranian interests against its interests not only in Gulf but even in Mediterranean. Won't be so easy.

That won't be such a big problem for them once money starts pouring in. Iran is also going Pakistan's way. The servant will be forced to listen to the master.

With the $400B deal, what's going to happen in Iran is the equivalent of a rich country dumping $4.5T worth of investments in India in just 5 years. That's effectively twice the national budget of Iran purely in investments. So you can imagine what kind of change that will bring about in Iran. And most of that money is going to go into a commodity that Iran simply has to dig out of the ground and sell, so there's no real risk factor involved as long as the investor keeps buying it all up, which is practically guaranteed for the next 25 years.

China's long term goal is to destabilise the ME so the US (even India) become distracted. And they will even end up with a profit. So it's in China's interest that Iran becomes a significant military power and is also capable of doing what it wants, with the expectation that Iran will protect China's investments and transit routes.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JustCurious
Looking at how the things are going, even if we don't have a war, China won't be able to invest such a huge amount of money in Iran. Chinese economy is in mess, their financial institutions are going bankrupt, their backbone of economy i.e exports are facing contraction die to trade war which is only going to intensify thanks to global outrage against China and on top of all these China is facing several natural disasters like pandemics, flood and famine. In next 5 years these problems will only increase. I don't think China would be able to fulfill its promise. In reality China has walked into a trap in Iran.

They are sitting on a large cash pile which they want to invest. The worse their own economy performs, the more they need access to foreign markets. And when it comes to Iran, it is also about oil security.

$400B over 5 years is not a lot of money to China. It's merely $80B a year, and pretty much most of it will be profitable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aurora