Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

I think we just ordered 1000 missiles from russia last year. That pretty much sums up all of the garbage you have written above.

India signs USD700 million deal with Russia for 1,000 additional air-to-air missiles

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has signed deals with Russia worth about USD700 million for an additional 1,000 air-to-air missiles (AAMs) to arm its fleets of MiG and Sukhoi...

www.janes.com

.

Incorrect. We ordered 400 RVV-SD, 300 RVV-MD and 300 R-27. That's merely a few hundred missiles each.

Otoh, we have no idea of the number of non-Russian missiles ordered or planned to be ordered. 493 MICA for M2000, XXX MICA and XXX Meteor for Rafale, nearly 400 ASRAAM from UK, 350 Astras, all of these already ordered. Then XXXX (4 digit) Derby ER from Israel. The Derby ER estimate alone should be 500 for LCA and another 1000 for MKI. The overall ASRAAM estimate should be over 3000. Another XXX Astra Mk1s should join the inventory to complement the Derbys. And you can expect at least 1000 MICA-NGs and 500 Meteors coming up with the Rafale production deal through MRFA, alongside more Astras, possibly Mk2. The 200 MWFs planned will likely absorb well over 2000 Astra Mk2/SFDR on its own, alongside at least 1000 WVRAAMs. So merely a few hundred Russian missiles each are a drop in the bucket, not even that.

Anyway, it appears you have missed this line:
Even the recent missile purchases from Russia were stopgap since we are running out of the older ones at an accelerated pace and killing off service life much earlier than planned.

So I have already addressed it. Those 1000 new missiles are merely stopgap. If given a choice, the IAF wouldn't have ordered these either. It was procured as an emergency to make up for a large number of missiles that finished their service life and were supposed to be replaced by non-Russian missiles. In fact, the IAF is planning to phase out most Russian weapons in its inventory at an accelerated pace. From here on, the number one choice is Indian, the number 2 choice is non-Russian.

I told ya already, your incessant whining is becoming a chore. You are unable to analyse and make better quality posts because of it. So it's easy to confuse reality with garbage.

 

[Ashwin]

Otoh, we have no idea of the number of non-Russian missiles ordered or planned to be ordered. 493 MICA for M2000, XXX MICA and XXX Meteor for Rafale, nearly 400 ASRAAM from UK, 350 Astras, all of these already ordered. Then XXXX (4 digit) Derby ER from Israel. The Derby ER estimate alone should be 500 for LCA and another 1000 for MKI. The overall ASRAAM estimate should be over 3000. Another XXX Astra Mk1s should join the inventory to complement the Derbys. And you can expect at least 1000 MICA-NGs and 500 Meteors coming up with the Rafale production deal through MRFA, alongside more Astras, possibly Mk2. The 200 MWFs planned will likely absorb well over 2000 Astra Mk2/SFDR on its own, alongside at least 1000 WVRAAMs. So merely a few hundred Russian missiles each are a drop in the bucket, not even that.

 

[rockstarIN]

Then XXXX (4 digit) Derby ER from Israel. The Derby ER estimate alone should be 500 for LCA and another 1000 for MKI.

Any proof that we actually 'placed' an order for Derby ER? All I see that our plan to integrate .

 

[randomradio]

Would help if you act like a mod.

 

[Ashwin]

Would help if you act like a mod.

Yeah, everyone got wishes. But I don't think you can ever stop writing fiction.

Only 50 LSP Astras ordered and zero i-Derby ER.

Not commenting on your predictions. I have learned the hard way that it's futile.

 

[randomradio]

Yeah, everyone got wishes. But I don't think you can ever stop writing fiction.

Only 50 LSP Astras ordered and zero Derby ER.

Not commenting on your predictions. I have learned the hard way that it's futile.

If you don't know the requirement, then why comment on it anyway?

 

[randomradio]

Any proof that we actually 'placed' an order for Derby ER? All I see that our plan to integrate .

"Planned" to order.

The best way to know is by understanding the total requirement.

Our current Russian inventory for BVR missiles is over 3000, closer to 3500, but many have been pushed out of service and form gaping holes in our inventory. The rest being French, Indian and a handful of Israeli. So we need immediate orders for 3000 missiles. And that requirement is going to be filled primarily by Derby. In the meantime, we have ordered 700 Russian BVRs as a stopgap, which were actually not required. So the remaining 2000-2500 missiles should be a mix of Derbys and Astras, in my opinion, with all of these needed within the next 5 years.

The minimum missile requirement for LCA is 8 per jet and for MKI it's 12 per jet. So the LCA needs an inventory of at least 1000 missiles and MKI needs over 3000 missiles. Both BVR and WVR. Then there's MRFA and MWF with a combined requirement of at least 3000-5000 missiles based on the number of aircraft procured.

Unlike some who have displayed a proven ignorance of the subject, there's nothing special about the numbers I have quoted. We currently have over 8000 AAMs in operation or as holes in the inventory. Out of those 6000 need replacement within the next 5 years. And the overall inventory needs further growth as our fleet strength increases with more capable aircraft with missile requirements matching the MKI.

 

[Milspec]

Incorrect. We ordered 400 RVV-SD, 300 RVV-MD and 300 R-27. That's merely a few hundred missiles each.

Otoh, we have no idea of the number of non-Russian missiles ordered or planned to be ordered. 493 MICA for M2000, XXX MICA and XXX Meteor for Rafale, nearly 400 ASRAAM from UK, 350 Astras, all of these already ordered. Then XXXX (4 digit) Derby ER from Israel. The Derby ER estimate alone should be 500 for LCA and another 1000 for MKI. The overall ASRAAM estimate should be over 3000. Another XXX Astra Mk1s should join the inventory to complement the Derbys. And you can expect at least 1000 MICA-NGs and 500 Meteors coming up with the Rafale production deal trhrough MRFA, alongside more Astras, possibly Mk2. The 200 MWFs planned will likely absorb well over 2000 Astra Mk2/SFDR on its own, alongside at least 1000 WVRAAMs. So merely a few hundred Russian missiles each are a drop in the bucket, not even that.

Oh boy, going forward please don't include me in your wet dreams.
We have a successful Astra Missile based on which LSP commenced with an order of 248 missiles. Astra is supposed to be a 110km missile, and even then we will continue to order, R27, Derby and Mica's all of them categorically with lesser range and R77RVV SD's with equivalent ranges in thousands. That doesn't make any sense, but thats a pattern in most of your posts.

Anyway, it appears you have missed this line:
Even the recent missile purchases from Russia were stopgap since we are running out of the older ones at an accelerated pace and killing off service life much earlier than planned.

Stop gap for what? negotiating better commissions as always?

So I have already addressed it. Those 1000 new missiles are merely stopgap. If given a choice, the IAF wouldn't have ordered these either. It was procured as an emergency to make up for a large number of missiles that finished their service life and were supposed to be replaced by non-Russian missiles. In fact, the IAF is planning to phase out most Russian weapons in its inventory at an accelerated pace. From here on, the number one choice is Indian, the number 2 choice is non-Russian.

I told ya already, your incessant whining is becoming a chore. You are unable to analyse and make better quality posts because of it. So it's easy to confuse reality with garbage.

Indian BVR both procurement, as well as development, is not up to par and the Air force will pay for it. We all know who is capable of analysing what, I am not here dancing with Pom Poms for the Defence ministry, which seems to be your real passion.
The contortions that you have to put up to, is just amusing to watch.

 

[Lolwa]

We have a successful Astra Missile based on which LSP commenced with an order of 248 missiles. Astra is supposed to be a 110km missile, and even then we will continue to order, R27, Derby and Mica's all of them categorically with lesser range and R77RVV SD's with equivalent ranges in thousands. That doesn't make any sense, but thats a pattern in most of your posts.

Micas are required for mirage and rafale. The R27 order happened before the astra order so it makes sense ordering Russian bvraams when the indigenous one is not ready. The Derby was always a back up for if the Russian bvrs fail which they haven't even though people will doubt Russian missile performance due to 27th Feb the r73 prove itself.
I don't know the exact requirement of IAF for bvr missiles but having a variety of bvr missiles gives us an advantage. The pl 15 which is the best missile in the Chinese inventory might at best have an effective range of 90-150 km with nez around 40-50km and is technologically inferior to the aim120d, and from what I have understood of IAF's operation they are expecting them to be seen first and create a wvr scenario of combat. The problem is the Chinese seem to have the exact same scenario where they will use their flanker clones as baits for their j10's to attack while the j20 gives cover
The rest of the chinese bvr missile inventory is mediocre at best. Most of them are python clones so guidance might superior to the Russians but range will be smaller and considering they are Chinese I don't think they will perform as good as they are marketed. All that said the Chinese will have the first shot in bvr combat against us. We can all underestimate the j20 but it has a superior radar and frontal rcs to the rafale will give some advantage to it against our flankers and migs. Our CCM inventory is qualitatively superior to the Chinese so if we dodge the first barrage we can easily take the fight in wvr...

 

[randomradio]

Oh boy, going forward please don't include me in your wet dreams.
We have a successful Astra Missile based on which LSP commenced with an order of 248 missiles. Astra is supposed to be a 110km missile, and even then we will continue to order, R27, Derby and Mica's all of them categorically with lesser range and R77RVV SD's with equivalent ranges in thousands. That doesn't make any sense, but thats a pattern in most of your posts.

Basic mistake with tech specs. The Israelis advertise the Derby-ER with a capability 80% to that of the Meteor and the Aim-120D, with a 160Km range, is only 50% as capable as the Derby ER. It has at least 50% more range (or greater) than the Astra Mk1 or RVV-SD. It's in the same class as the K-77M. It comes with a dual pulse motor, but I don't think you understand what that means, so forget about it. But I can dumb it down saying you can estimate its range to be anywhere between 150-200Km, closer to 200 than 150. The Derby ER's advertised range of 100Km is at medium altitude, and at that range Astra Mk1 is somewhere around 50Km, RVV-AE is somewhere around 35-40Km. In simple terms, it comes with a GaN based seeker, dual pulse motors and extremely modern navigation, and none of the missiles on offer to us are its match. Only the Meteor is superior due to its kinematic capabilities, but not the electronics. It's obvious when even the 160+Km Aim-120D is expected to be only half as capable as the Derby ER.

Second mistake, comparing the MICA's capabilities with another missile, when the main idea behind the MICA's design has less to do with the missile itself and more to do with the platform firing it. You can put a Meteor on an MKI, but you won't get the chance to use it against a MICA-equipped Rafale. MICA has been designed to kill stuff more effectively at closer ranges, which is why the smaller form factor compared to regular BVR missiles. It's built for a very different combat philosophy. But I doubt you are ever going to be allowed into seminars that will explain that.

Another thing you obviously do not know about the Russians is the downgrades. The actual range of the R-77-1 that the Russians use is over 130Km. But the export model, the RVV-SD, is basically a whole new missile, with new electronics, new motor, new warhead, new fuel, all inferior to the original, hence the inferior acceleration and inferior range. With the RVV-SD, all they did is match the Aim-120C5/7 because it's good enough. But the IAF can't afford good enough, they need the best that's available. And it's obvious Derby ER is just that. The Israelis and French do not downgrade weapons like the Russians do, which is why you get top quality from them and that's the reason why most of our acquisitions have moved away from Russia.

I hate it when ignoramuses ridiculously start second-guessing the IAF without understanding why they do what they do.

Stop gap for what? negotiating better commissions as always?

Why don't you look up when our last order was? And then read post 2427.

Indian BVR both procurement, as well as development, is not up to par and the Air force will pay for it. We all know who is capable of analysing what, I am not here dancing with Pom Poms for the Defence ministry, which seems to be your real passion.
The contortions that you have to put up to, is just amusing to watch.

Yes, yes, we can't even make a rifle. Keep whining.

 

[randomradio]

Micas are required for mirage and rafale. The R27 order happened before the astra order so it makes sense ordering Russian bvraams when the indigenous one is not ready. The Derby was always a back up for if the Russian bvrs fail which they haven't even though people will doubt Russian missile performance due to 27th Feb the r73 prove itself.
I don't know the exact requirement of IAF for bvr missiles but having a variety of bvr missiles gives us an advantage. The pl 15 which is the best missile in the Chinese inventory might at best have an effective range of 90-150 km with nez around 40-50km and is technologically inferior to the aim120d, and from what I have understood of IAF's operation they are expecting them to be seen first and create a wvr scenario of combat. The problem is the Chinese seem to have the exact same scenario where they will use their flanker clones as baits for their j10's to attack while the j20 gives cover
The rest of the chinese bvr missile inventory is mediocre at best. Most of them are python clones so guidance might superior to the Russians but range will be smaller and considering they are Chinese I don't think they will perform as good as they are marketed. All that said the Chinese will have the first shot in bvr combat against us. We can all underestimate the j20 but it has a superior radar and frontal rcs to the rafale will give some advantage to it against our flankers and migs. Our CCM inventory is qualitatively superior to the Chinese so if we dodge the first barrage we can easily take the fight in wvr...

In a limited conflict, we are kinda fine at this moment. We have small numbers of advanced missiles that provide certain amounts of parity and even superiority. It's enough to force the Chinese to back down. But our BVR and CCM inventory is still significantly inferior to the Chinese when it comes to a major war. They hold a sheer numbers advantage when it comes to advanced weapons.

We are still stuck with a lot of RVV-AEs and R-73s which need to be replaced in sufficiently large numbers before we can claim to have some sort of parity. And the Derby ER + ASRAAM/Python V combo for the LCA and MKI is critical to meet such expectations.

Right now, only our Jaguars have the ASRAAM, and recently MKI has been modified to carry the MICA IR, which is a stopgap measure. Our next most advanced is the RVV-MD, which is far behind the Chinese PL-10. The decision to go for a next gen CCM is still pending, and may be a contest between ASRAAM and Python V for both LCA and MKI. It's also possible that the IAF will buy what the OEM decides, which means MKI gets a Russian CCM, LCA gets western, or they may even end up with a combination of 2 or 3 missiles each. So the LCA with the RVV-MD, MICA IR and ASRAAM, while MKI gets Python V, RVV-MD, ASRAAM and MICA IR. It's good to have options when the supplier is not in our control. I don't know if DRDO has planned for an indigenous CCM.

It may be a bit different when it comes to BVR missiles since we have our own designs now. We may have a variety of BVR missiles in the short term, ultimately settling for DRDO-designed missiles in the long run. The Russians are still going to be in the game with the SFDR program for a very long time in India even if they lose out on deals in the short term today.

 

[Aurora]

I don't know if DRDO has planned for an indigenous CCM.

Astra IR. It will outperform all the present CCMs.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Astra IR. It will outperform all the present CCMs.

Anything comparable with the sensor of R73 even will be an achievement actually.

 

[Milspec]

Micas are required for mirage and rafale. The R27 order happened before the astra order so it makes sense ordering Russian bvraams when the indigenous one is not ready. The Derby was always a back up for if the Russian bvrs fail which they haven't even though people will doubt Russian missile performance due to 27th Feb the r73 prove itself.

R73's Performance is beyond doubt. I have maintained that all the time. Well it is quite pertinent that Astra's to be integrated into the Mirage's. And if the French are not keen on doing so, it tells you the difference between the Russians and French.

I don't know the exact requirement of IAF for bvr missiles but having a variety of bvr missiles gives us an advantage. The pl 15 which is the best missile in the Chinese inventory might at best have an effective range of 90-150 km with nez around 40-50km and is technologically inferior to the aim120d, and from what I have understood of IAF's operation they are expecting them to be seen first and create a wvr scenario of combat. The problem is the Chinese seem to have the exact same scenario where they will use their flanker clones as baits for their j10's to attack while the j20 gives cover
The rest of the chinese bvr missile inventory is mediocre at best. Most of them are python clones so guidance might superior to the Russians but range will be smaller and considering they are Chinese I don't think they will perform as good as they are marketed. All that said the Chinese will have the first shot in bvr combat against us. We can all underestimate the j20 but it has a superior radar and frontal rcs to the rafale will give some advantage to it against our flankers and migs. Our CCM inventory is qualitatively superior to the Chinese so if we dodge the first barrage we can easily take the fight in wvr...

Nothing to comment on that part. I don't know much about Chinese missiles. Python is a very capable missile from limited interaction, I was part of the team that worked on integration in my early days.

What I am perplexed to, is this idea of stop gap? stop gap for what?
On MKI what is the BVRAAM going to be? K77ME? K77M? or Astra SFDR? It that is the case then why is R73ET-ER 1 the stop gap and not the Astra I?
Also why order Derby ER for MKI's in that case if your final goal is ASTRA family.

 

[Milspec]

Basic mistake with tech specs. The Israelis advertise the Derby-ER with a capability 80% to that of the Meteor and the Aim-120D, with a 160Km range, is only 50% as capable as the Derby ER. It has at least 50% more range (or greater) than the Astra Mk1 or RVV-SD. It's in the same class as the K-77M. It comes with a dual pulse motor, but I don't think you understand what that means, so forget about it. But I can dumb it down saying you can estimate its range to be anywhere between 150-200Km, closer to 200 than 150. The Derby ER's advertised range of 100Km is at medium altitude, and at that range Astra Mk1 is somewhere around 50Km, RVV-AE is somewhere around 35-40Km. In simple terms, it comes with a GaN based seeker, dual pulse motors and extremely modern navigation, and none of the missiles on offer to us are its match. Only the Meteor is superior due to its kinematic capabilities, but not the electronics. It's obvious when even the 160+Km Aim-120D is expected to be only half as capable as the Derby ER.

Second mistake, comparing the MICA's capabilities with another missile, when the main idea behind the MICA's design has less to do with the missile itself and more to do with the platform firing it. You can put a Meteor on an MKI, but you won't get the chance to use it against a MICA-equipped Rafale. MICA has been designed to kill stuff more effectively at closer ranges, which is why the smaller form factor compared to regular BVR missiles. It's built for a very different combat philosophy. But I doubt you are ever going to be allowed into seminars that will explain that.

Another thing you obviously do not know about the Russians is the downgrades. The actual range of the R-77-1 that the Russians use is over 130Km. But the export model, the RVV-SD, is basically a whole new missile, with new electronics, new motor, new warhead, new fuel, all inferior to the original, hence the inferior acceleration and inferior range. With the RVV-SD, all they did is match the Aim-120C5/7 because it's good enough. But the IAF can't afford good enough, they need the best that's available. And it's obvious Derby ER is just that. The Israelis and French do not downgrade weapons like the Russians do, which is why you get top quality from them and that's the reason why most of our acquisitions have moved away from Russia.

When a Facpalm is not enough:

 

[Aurora]

Anything comparable with the sensor of R73 even will be an achievement actually.

Looking at the performance of Astra mk1, I am little bit more optimistic.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Looking at the performance of Astra mk1, I am little bit more optimistic.

IR seeker will not be easy thing to do. The base will surely be the one used in NAG. That sensor will need to be improved to be used in aam

 

[randomradio]

Astra IR. It will outperform all the present CCMs.

Only in terms of speed and range. So it's a replacement for the R-27, not the R-73.

CCMs require very high mobility, which Astra cannot provide.

What I am perplexed to, is this idea of stop gap? stop gap for what?
On MKI what is the BVRAAM going to be? K77ME? K77M? or Astra SFDR? It that is the case then why is R73ET-ER 1 the stop gap and not the Astra I?
Also why order Derby ER for MKI's in that case if your final goal is ASTRA family.

You don't even understand that much. Amit Shah must be very disappointed. Haha.

Anything comparable with the sensor of R73 even will be an achievement actually.

We've obviously developed far superior sensors.

 

[Ashwin]

If you don't know the requirement, then why comment on it anyway?

Maybe took inspiration from you.

How many Astra and Derby ER ordered again?

We have a successful Astra Missile based on which LSP commenced with an order of 248 missiles. Astra is supposed to be a 110km missile

Astra's order for 248 is at least a few years away. DAC just gave AoN. Mark 1 range at max 80km.

 

[Milspec]

but I don't think you understand what that means, so forget about it. But I can dumb it down .......

But I doubt you are ever going to be allowed into seminars that will explain that......

Another thing you obviously do not know about the Russians is the downgrades. ......

I hate it when ignoramuses ridiculously start second-guessing the IAF without understanding why they do what they do......

Keep whining......

still underwhelmed as always...

Maybe took inspiration from you.

How many Astra and Derby ER ordered again?


Astra's order for 248 is at least a few years away. DAC just gave AoN. Mark 1 range at max 80km.

40 bori astra, 80 ggadi derby... you dont know, you wont be invited to seminars he goes too.... beware