Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Sathya]

U guys still believing in MMRCA 2 ?

 

[Lolwa]

True but We don’t have to replicate US or EU on everything. It will drain our economy hamper the development like Pakistanis are facing replicating us.
Instead we should better focus on cheaper and effective platforms with advanced weapons and technologies.

Import what gives us maximum advantage in minimum cost. No big items. Only components/systems

That train is long gone. Those cheaper tech development is what the Chinese did by making enormous amounts of mig 19 and 21 clones doing iterational improvements , reverse engineering and mass producing air defence system and anti-ship missiles of every generation. That's what the Iranians did too after they got sanctioned. What we did was screw driver Giri and grovelling.

You can't make "cheap" advanced weapons or technologies by grovelling and screwdrivergiri. If its cheap it's not advanced.

U guys still believing in MMRCA 2 ?

No only because ACM Bhadauria talked about buying the 114 plane deal recently otherwise I had already lost all hope.

 

[AbRaj]

That train is long gone. Those cheaper tech development is what the Chinese did by making enormous amounts of mig 19 and 21 clones doing iterational improvements , reverse engineering and mass producing air defence system and anti-ship missiles of every generation. That's what the Iranians did too after they got sanctioned. What we did was screw driver Giri and grovelling.

You can't make "cheap" advanced weapons or technologies by grovelling and screwdrivergiri. If its cheap it's not advanced.

No only because ACM Bhadauria talked about buying the 114 plane deal recently otherwise I had already lost all hope.

Looks like we’re doomed without eXXX

 

[Lolwa]

Looks like we’re doomed without eXXX

Yes bro. Go get some exxxvideos...

 

[Hydra]

I disagree the mig 21 pretty much went inside Pakistani airspace without being detected until the f16 was shot down. So rcs does matter. It also shows that the mki's rcs is big enough that it made the f16's ignore the mig 21 for a while.

The Chinese plaaf also uses a strategy where the j16's will act as bait, the j20 will give them cover and the j10 will go in and do the dogfight which proves that even Chinese haven't been able to reduce the rcs that much as they claim for the j16. And f15E has an rcs of around 10sqm more than the mki even. And Boeing hasn't done any rcs reduction on the F15EX so it will have more rcs than the mki. Epawws though is as good as spectra and pretty powerful too...

MiG-21 sneak in to enemy controlled airspace because of radar blind spot due to topography.

Yeas,my point also same,you need a pure stealth aircraft like j20,f22,f35 which has fixed RCS irrespective of weapon load to make use low RCS of aircraft.

 

[Sathya]

That train is long gone. Those cheaper tech development is what the Chinese did by making enormous amounts of mig 19 and 21 clones doing iterational improvements , reverse engineering and mass producing air defence system and anti-ship missiles of every generation. That's what the Iranians did too after they got sanctioned. What we did was screw driver Giri and grovelling.

You can't make "cheap" advanced weapons or technologies by grovelling and screwdrivergiri. If its cheap it's not advanced.

No only because ACM Bhadauria talked about buying the 114 plane deal recently otherwise I had already lost all hope.

It's going to be decided between Economy & Time.

Post Covid 19 is not going to be same.

Would be happy if IAF signs for
83 Tejas Mk1A
36 more Rafale
2 Phalcon AWACS.
Within this Modi 2 gov.

 

[Ashwin]

The typhoon actually became L1 after some changes EADS made to the deal but the IAF wouldn't change it saying it was too late. Plus the whole connection EADS had with congress for lobbying came under scrutiny...

No, there is no provision in DPP to take a discount offer after L1 declaration. Rafale became L1 because EADS submitted all documents and Dassault didn't. Thus auditors found the entire process faulty thus advised to scrape the tender. If there was a so-called connection EADS would have played the same game, wouldn't they?

 

[Bali78]

No, there is no provision in DPP to take a discount offer after L1 declaration. Rafale became L1 because EADS submitted all documents and Dassault didn't. Thus auditors found the entire process faulty thus advised to scrape the tender. If there was a so-called connection EADS would have played the same game, wouldn't they?

That means the so called “Independent External Monitors” were a bunch of idiots who either didn’t know how to do their job or just overlooked certain glaring issues due to reasons best known to them!!

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

No, there is no provision in DPP to take a discount offer after L1 declaration. Rafale became L1 because EADS submitted all documents and Dassault didn't. Thus auditors found the entire process faulty thus advised to scrape the tender. If there was a so-called connection EADS would have played the same game, wouldn't they?

How do you know that EADS submitted all documents? The 27 March 2015 report said: "The proposal of vendor, M/s EADS was also not compliant with RFP ". Maybe it was impossible to be compliant because HAL had not provided the right data. So Dassault said for these tasks in France we need this number of working hours and in India it depends on HAL's evaluations. And EADS said the same for the same raisons.

 

[randomradio]

True but We don’t have to replicate US or EU on everything. It will drain our economy hamper the development like Pakistanis are facing replicating us.
Instead we should better focus on cheaper and effective platforms with advanced weapons and technologies.

Import what gives us maximum advantage in minimum cost. No big items. Only components/systems

That's actually the problem. There's no such thing as "cheaper and effective", it's only cheap or effective. Or you can define "cheaper and effective" only within limitations. For example, LCA Mk1A is cheap and effective as an interceptor, but woefully inadequate as a strike aircraft or a full spectrum air superiority fighter.

But to perform some roles, you need "extremely effective", and that comes at a very high cost. The alternative is complete and abject failure to the point where your air force will simply become useless. It's simple actually. If you are creating a warfighting air force to fight an advanced enemy, then you either try and get your hands on the best, or you simply don't bother getting involved in a war, so no air force, which is why there are only a few major air forces in the world. There is no in-between because such air forces cannot fight.

 

[randomradio]

No, there is no provision in DPP to take a discount offer after L1 declaration. Rafale became L1 because EADS submitted all documents and Dassault didn't. Thus auditors found the entire process faulty thus advised to scrape the tender. If there was a so-called connection EADS would have played the same game, wouldn't they?

I wouldn't pay too much attention to this. Dassault screwed up procedures in the beginning, but were brought in after they fixed it. This kinda of flexibility should actually be welcomed, since the competition part had not begun by then. A lot of it will be due to miscommunication between all parties involved.

How do you know that EADS submitted all documents? The 27 March 2015 report said: "The proposal of vendor, M/s EADS was also not compliant with RFP ". Maybe it was impossible to be compliant because HAL had not provided the right data. So Dassault said for these tasks in France we need this number of working hours and in India it depends on HAL's evaluations. And EADS said the same for the same raisons.

This is referring to documents submitted by Dassault before the competition began, HAL wasn't involved.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

That's my point why are we leasing anything in the first place. It's because of our failing system. The IN has been using second hand AC's post independence. We shouldn't have been brought into the position of buying the vikramaditya. And Pakistan is a failed state my point is that if a failed state has a better procurement policy than India then where do we stand. They also bought spanking new VT-4's doesn't matter if they paid for it or not. They have their gaps covered while our gaps only become larger because we sit and do the inefficient tendering process..

All I am doing is pointing out the reason. In our system, no officer Civil or Military will take a initiative. As a single article from any 3rd grade media house alleging corruption will ruin his/her career. That's why we often fail at grasping opportunities and rely on inefficient MoD headed processes.

 

[vstol Jockey]

How do you know that EADS submitted all documents? The 27 March 2015 report said: "The proposal of vendor, M/s EADS was also not compliant with RFP ". Maybe it was impossible to be compliant because HAL had not provided the right data. So Dassault said for these tasks in France we need this number of working hours and in India it depends on HAL's evaluations. And EADS said the same for the same raisons.

All of them were non compliant. But DA used its outstanding sources with Italian waitress and offered some unprecedented financial benefits to the family which resulted in Rafale being declared L1. This fact has been proven correct based on the ISE cost we had to pay for each Rafale. Compared to Rafale, EFT needed lesser amount of ISE and that would have resulted in a cost for EFT lower than final price of Rafale with ISE.

 

[Hydra]

All of them were non compliant. But DA used its outstanding sources with Italian waitress and offered some unprecedented finacial benefits to the family which resulted in Rafale being declared L1. This fact has been proven correct based on the ISE cost we had to pay for each Rafale. Compared to Rafale, EFT needed lesser amount of ISE and that would have resulted in a cost for EFT lower than final price of Rafale with ISE.

Is EFT is as capable as Rafale? I think no, at least when comes to a2g role & EW arena.

 

[Ashwin]

That means the so called “Independent External Monitors” were a bunch of idiots who either didn’t know how to do their job or just overlooked certain glaring issues due to reasons best known to them!!

Who is this external monitor again?

How do you know that EADS submitted all documents? The 27 March 2015 report said: "The proposal of vendor, M/s EADS was also not compliant with RFP ". Maybe it was impossible to be compliant because HAL had not provided the right data. So Dassault said for these tasks in France we need this number of working hours and in India it depends on HAL's evaluations. And EADS said the same for the same raisons.

M/s EADS submitted all the documents but it was not compliant. While DA was incomplete and non-compliant.

This is the national auditor's report. It doesn't matter what Dassault said when the other party is willing to submit all documents.

This price bid stage doesn't matter as all of them have already failed in the technical evaluation.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Is EFT is as capable as Rafale? I think no

Next time when you write 'i think'. Actually, think and explain why so.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Next time when you write 'i think'. Actually, think and explain why so.

O boy, O boy. 2 mallus & 3 opinions.

 

[randomradio]

It's going to be decided between Economy & Time.

Post Covid 19 is not going to be same.

Would be happy if IAF signs for
83 Tejas Mk1A
36 more Rafale
2 Phalcon AWACS.
Within this Modi 2 gov.

Let's not forget the 33 jets we are signing up with Russia. At least the 83 Tejas and 33 Mig-29/MKI are assured. You can consider the Phalcons as assured as well. And you can expect to see a lease for refuellers during this term. The C-295 contract is coming up for a signature as well.

MRFA and LCA Mk2 are for the next govt to decide on. Plus it can't be funded with our current finances.

 

[suryakiran]

No, there is no provision in DPP to take a discount offer after L1 declaration. Rafale became L1 because EADS submitted all documents and Dassault didn't. Thus auditors found the entire process faulty thus advised to scrape the tender. If there was a so-called connection EADS would have played the same game, wouldn't they?

Few observations regarding government procurement process, not just defence :

1. No procurement is completely compliant. Ever.
2. Complete compliance is possible, only if specifications are rigged from the start.
3. Government officers are completely capable of being able to pick up small deviations from the process, even if it means the deal is clean and then blocking a deal because of vested interests.
4. Before the start of any procurement process, the user agency already has a favourite. The process is only a Save your a$$ activity.
5. Government changes rarely lead to changes in product preference by the end user agency.

Now coming to the Rafale. Now lets look at why this procurment is getting stretched.

a. Government wants to look clean.
b. Pappu Gandhi made noise.
c. Pappu Gandhi ka brother in law has a friend.
d. Friend wanted Rafale partnership.
e. Rafale gave partnership to chota Ambani.
f. Friend and brother in law got pissed.
g. Pappu Gandhi wants more money in family business.

Now, if Congress comes to power this deal will close sooner than you finish reading this post. Because deal will go to that company.

There was a simple solution to this muck-up. Tell DA to setup technical and financial guidelines. Get Indian companies to bid for setting up the process. Decide on the Indian partner and roll the Rafale out.

But then if this could work, I would be the PM of the country.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Few observations regarding government procurement process, not just defence :

1. No procurement is completely compliant. Ever.
2. Complete compliance is possible, only if specifications are rigged from the start.
3. Government officers are completely capable of being able to pick up small deviations from the process, even if it means the deal is clean and then blocking a deal because of vested interests.
4. Before the start of any procurement process, the user agency already has a favourite. The process is only a Save your a$$ activity.
5. Government changes rarely lead to changes in product preference by the end user agency.

Now coming to the Rafale. Now lets look at why this procurment is getting stretched.

a. Government wants to look clean.
b. Pappu Gandhi made noise.
c. Pappu Gandhi ka brother in law has a friend.
d. Friend wanted Rafale partnership.
e. Rafale gave partnership to chota Ambani.
f. Friend and brother in law got pissed.
g. Pappu Gandhi wants more money in family business.

Now, if Congress comes to power this deal will close sooner than you finish reading this post. Because deal will go to that company.

There was a simple solution to this muck-up. Tell DA to setup technical and financial guidelines. Get Indian companies to bid for setting up the process. Decide on the Indian partner and roll the Rafale out.

But then if this could work, I would be the PM of the country.

Which industrialist with close ties to RaGa are you hinting at?