Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[AbRaj]

The F-15 is a no go where the IAF is concerned. The F-18 is more probable for the IN. IAF is not interested in the airplane. We are just delaying the inevitable. More Rafale. Followed by indigenous planes. The lower end of the spectrum needs to be filled with the Tejas and its subsequent iterations. The AMCA, is snake oil till 2035.

What we need is collaboration with either RR or GE or Safran for our engines. While we build our engine tech, work with existing players to build a parallel line. Then learnings from this flows into the indigenous engines. This is a 25 year project. If we attempt this in 5 years, we are bound to fail or fall short again.

We don’t need vehicles which we already have (Su 30s, Migs and Mirages etc) or can produce ourselves (LCA and it’s variants) but weapons and systems which can provide us edge in battlefield and which we can integrate in our own platforms without fear of embargo or interruption in supply at the time of needs.
Buying expensive platforms from US and other western countries seems very expensive and risky proposition.

 

[Hydra]

We don’t need vehicles which we already have (Su 30s, Migs and Mirages etc) or can produce ourselves (LCA and it’s variants) but weapons and systems which can provide us edge in battlefield and which we can integrate in our own platforms without fear of embargo or interruption in supply at the time of needs.
Buying expensive platforms from US and other western countries seems very expensive and risky proposition.

MKI & Egle on offer are not of same capability. MKI is purely an air superiority aircraft on paper with limited a2g role. Where FEX, atleast a baby of a proven aircraft.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

MKI & Egle on offer are not of same capability. MKI is purely an air superiority aircraft on paper with limited a2g role. Where FEX, atleast a baby of a proven aircraft.

They are the same type of aircraft. High maintenance heavy duty air superiority fighter. The problem with MKI fleet happened because of 20 years with no upgrade program. It's simply extremely cheap and easier to rather implement a comprehensive MLU program for MKI to update it. Su35 has more chances of making into our inventory than F15 variant. BTW the chances of Su35 can be estimated by almost double the operating costs than MKI.

 

[Lolwa]

The F-15 is a no go where the IAF is concerned. The F-18 is more probable for the IN. IAF is not interested in the airplane. We are just delaying the inevitable. More Rafale. Followed by indigenous planes. The lower end of the spectrum needs to be filled with the Tejas and its subsequent iterations. The AMCA, is snake oil till 2035.

What we need is collaboration with either RR or GE or Safran for our engines. While we build our engine tech, work with existing players to build a parallel line. Then learnings from this flows into the indigenous engines. This is a 25 year project. If we attempt this in 5 years, we are bound to fail or fall short again.

F 18 is for the IN but not for the IAF I don't think Dassault has any partner . While Boeing has made a very strong case with HAL and psu lobbying is always there.
The f15 has two flaws one is a huge rcs and the other being lack of supercruise. The ASQR's would tell us what they need. The rafale fits but if they don't get a partner and considering the DA production speed is a lot slower than Boeing chances are that might give them some edge.
IAF won't buy the f18 even mmrca 1 was decided on the basis of kinematics. The only good performers with good avionics are the rafale,typhoon and the f15. Typhoon doesn't have a mature radar. The f15 beats every other in terms of aesa radar and the rafale is the most modern and mature but not the most powerful. My whole doubt comes from Dassault not having any partners since chota ambani is out of the game and they haven't selected a new partner. This time rafale might not get concessions the same way it got earlier from the IAF. And whenever f15 has been introduced in a tender it has pretty much won. I don't know the quad adds a lot of complications rafale's would fit better for us but I doubt we can build them as fast we can build f15EX's or the f18 and partnering with HAL gives them an advantage over whatever partner DA partners with...
Though a Safran jv and a RR jv done seperately should be the approach. One for the MWF the other for the amca. So that we can re-engine the future rafale's with it. The amca needs a much more powerful engine that is more advanced. But since we don't have unlimited money I hope we go with the RR JV deal...

 

[Lolwa]

No they didn't. That's a myth. Only DA did not produce documents. They should have disqualified at this stage but because of obvious IAF preferences they didn't.

Well I might be wrong on the life cycle costs but every manufacturers had exxagerated their specifications on paper for the RFI which was claimed by a DA employee. We have a very bad and torturous tendering process. Most companies wouldn't even sell us because of how bad our tendering is. That's why a lot companies don't even respond now when we give out rfi's. And this government hasn't really improved the tendering process even our fast track procurement are similar to proper procurements of developed countries. The Pakistanis are way faster on procuring weapons than us because they have a very straight forward procurement policy. It's their bad luck that they have a shit economy and have a bad rapport otherwise we wouldn't even be able to to be on par with them if Pakistan wasn't an international pariah state...

 

[Lolwa]

They are the same type of aircraft. High maintenance heavy duty air superiority fighter. The problem with MKI fleet happened because of 20 years with no upgrade program. It's simply extremely cheap and easier to rather implement a comprehensive MLU program for MKI to update it. Su35 has more chances of making into our inventory than F15 variant. BTW the chances of Su35 can be estimated by almost double the operating costs than MKI.

Su 35 is a bad deal. It's the weakest entrant in the mmrca even buying the f21 would be better than buying su35. Atleast in case of f15EX you can have a heavy aircraft superior to Chinese j16's which are in the same class. The su 35 is just a juiced up mki for the most part better to focus on upgrading our mki's than buying outdated su 35's...

 

[Lolwa]

We don’t need vehicles which we already have (Su 30s, Migs and Mirages etc) or can produce ourselves (LCA and it’s variants) but weapons and systems which can provide us edge in battlefield and which we can integrate in our own platforms without fear of embargo or interruption in supply at the time of needs.
Buying expensive platforms from US and other western countries seems very expensive and risky proposition.

I don't understand why the embargo drama is being again and again used like it's a relevant point. We are not in the 70's. The Americans need us why would they embargo us when they have a bigger fish called the Chinese to deal with. We are not in the 70's fighting against the American capitalist we are fighting with the American capitalist. How do people still spew this bs without understanding the present circumstances?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Well I might be wrong on the life cycle costs but every manufacturers had exxagerated their specifications on paper for the RFI which was claimed by a DA employee. We have a very bad and torturous tendering process. Most companies wouldn't even sell us because of how bad our tendering is. That's why a lot companies don't even respond now when we give out rfi's. And this government hasn't really improved the tendering process even our fast track procurement are similar to proper procurements of developed countries. The Pakistanis are way faster on procuring weapons than us because they have a very straight forward procurement policy. It's their bad luck that they have a shit economy and have a bad rapport otherwise we wouldn't even be able to to be on par with them if Pakistan wasn't an international pariah state...

The system in India is different. Pakistan is importing 20 year old used civilian aircraft with a very limited production run , which is out of production for 2 deacdes now for the AEWS. Something similar happens in India , people will lose their possible promotions, defence minister will possibly have to resign. Cannot really compare. We have very high levels of scrutiny. We need to learn to live with that.

 

[AbRaj]

MKI & Egle on offer are not of same capability. MKI is purely an air superiority aircraft on paper with limited a2g role. Where FEX, atleast a baby of a proven aircraft.

Bro anything for you . Anything else you wish?

They are the same type of aircraft. High maintenance heavy duty air superiority fighter. The problem with MKI fleet happened because of 20 years with no upgrade program. It's simply extremely cheap and easier to rather implement a comprehensive MLU program for MKI to update it. Su35 has more chances of making into our inventory than F15 variant. BTW the chances of Su35 can be estimated by almost double the operating costs than MKI.

You are banging head on rock.

I don't understand why the embargo drama is being again and again used like it's a relevant point. We are not in the 70's. The Americans need us why would they embargo us when they have a bigger fish called the Chinese to deal with. We are not in the 70's fighting against the American capitalist we are fighting with the American capitalist. How do people still spew this bs without understanding the present circumstances?

Absolutely true. We are Super Duper Power now. How dare anyone can even think of a casualty like Iraq/Iran/Pakistan and dozen other indispensable super powa allies of US. I think America is helpless now and we should attack them and make them a colony of India.

Tunnel vision is very good vision.

PS: One amongst numerous “great visionaries” who stated that “Murcia needs us more than we needs them” and thought that their country is “indispensable” ally of Murcia ???
Hint: He is lovingly known as Quaid e Azam in some country.

 

[Lolwa]

Bro anything for you . Anything else you wish?

You are banging head on rock.

Absolutely true. We are Super Duper Power now. How dare anyone can even think of a casualty like Iraq/Iran/Pakistan and dozen other indispensable super powa allies of US. I think America is helpless now and we should attack them and make them a colony of India.

Tunnel vision is very good vision.

PS: One amongst numerous “great visionaries” who stated that “Murcia needs us more than we needs them” and thought that their country is “indispensable” ally of Murcia ???
Hint: He is lovingly known as Quaid e Azam in some country.

Then you have a tunnel vision of why that quaid-e-azams country failed. Kuch desho ko Apni aukkad mein rehna chahiye. Those ghazis were too smart for their own good. Using braindead analogies to prove your point again and again. For every Pakistan,Iran and Iraq there is a south Korea,Japan,Israel and China. What has our non-alignment given us?
Why do we get sanctioned now in 2020 by america and for what just explain that to me jenaab??
Why after signing every LEMOA,beca and whatever treaties we have been signing do we get sanctioned. Kaunsa future predict karliya apne Doctor strange in which we are getting sanctioned. It's not about superpower it's realism. They could have very well teamed up with Indonesia for quad why are the Americans wasting time with us then if they have to sanction us. Dimaag mein bhoosa bhara hain kya??

 

[Lolwa]

The system in India is different. Pakistan is importing 20 year old used civilian aircraft with a very limited production run , which is out of production for 2 deacdes now for the AEWS. Something similar happens in India , people will lose their possible promotions, defence minister will possibly have to resign. Cannot really compare. We have very high levels of scrutiny. We need to learn to live with that.

We are also ordering second hand mig 29's and using second hand aircraft carriers. Plans of leasing AWACS,tanker and what not. What type of scrutiny are we talking about here?

 

[randomradio]

Buying expensive platforms from US and other western countries seems very expensive and risky proposition.

The problem is capability costs money. If we try to replicate their levels of advancement indigenously, we will have to pay a lot as well. Technology isn't cheap, especially when it comes to the most hi-tech stuff. For example, the Arjun Mk1A costs no more than the latest Abrams, and the Abrams is far more advanced.

So the choice is between developing our own stuff which will be inadequate for a long time or buy expensive Western stuff until the time we can perform R&D at the required levels necessary to make equivalent stuff. And we are not there yet.

 

[Hydra]

F 18 is for the IN but not for the IAF I don't think Dassault has any partner . While Boeing has made a very strong case with HAL and psu lobbying is always there.
The f15 has two flaws one is a huge rcs and the other being lack of supercruise. The ASQR's would tell us what they need. The rafale fits but if they don't get a partner and considering the DA production speed is a lot slower than Boeing chances are that might give them some edge.
IAF won't buy the f18 even mmrca 1 was decided on the basis of kinematics. The only good performers with good avionics are the rafale,typhoon and the f15. Typhoon doesn't have a mature radar. The f15 beats every other in terms of aesa radar and the rafale is the most modern and mature but not the most powerful. My whole doubt comes from Dassault not having any partners since chota ambani is out of the game and they haven't selected a new partner. This time rafale might not get concessions the same way it got earlier from the IAF. And whenever f15 has been introduced in a tender it has pretty much won. I don't know the quad adds a lot of complications rafale's would fit better for us but I doubt we can build them as fast we can build f15EX's or the f18 and partnering with HAL gives them an advantage over whatever partner DA partners with...
Though a Safran jv and a RR jv done seperately should be the approach. One for the MWF the other for the amca. So that we can re-engine the future rafale's with it. The amca needs a much more powerful engine that is more advanced. But since we don't have unlimited money I hope we go with the RR JV deal...

I saw a tweet from Mr Harsh Vardhan Thakur on hyped up low RCS. Based on his twet I am telling you no matter how low RCS you have in clean configuration, the moment you add any weapon below it's belly it's gonna go above 1.5 sqm and any decent air craft with radar will pick you beyond the range any existing a2a missile ( yeah Meteor was operational at that time)

Now ,do high RCS is really dis advantage,do low RCS really matters? During Feb 27 aerial engagement MKI might have detected by PAF much agead, & MKI 's powerful radar might have picked f16 BVR range too. But both sides failed to achieve any kill in BVR range.

What matters more incase of experienced pilots is aircraft's kinematic performance,EW suit & Air to air missile . F15EX will have better kinematics performance than MKI,it's EW suit will be on par with Rafale. And I don't want to comment anything on f15's weapon package.

And no f15's RCS doesn't matters here,what matters here is it's coast.

 

[Hydra]

Well I might be wrong on the life cycle costs but every manufacturers had exxagerated their specifications on paper for the RFI which was claimed by a DA employee. We have a very bad and torturous tendering process. Most companies wouldn't even sell us because of how bad our tendering is. That's why a lot companies don't even respond now when we give out rfi's. And this government hasn't really improved the tendering process even our fast track procurement are similar to proper procurements of developed countries. The Pakistanis are way faster on procuring weapons than us because they have a very straight forward procurement policy. It's their bad luck that they have a shit economy and have a bad rapport otherwise we wouldn't even be able to to be on par with them if Pakistan wasn't an international pariah state...

Yeah, Pakistan is doing wonderful job while purchasing weapons. Quick ,cheap ,and capable enough to keep away we Indians away from them .

 

[Ankit Kumar]

We are also ordering second hand mig 29's and using second hand aircraft carriers. Plans of leasing AWACS,tanker and what not. What type of scrutiny are we talking about here?

2nd hand aircraft carrier and 2nd hand civilian aircraft with not more than 60 pieces made around 20 years back. Not the same thing.

Who will bear the responsibility of such actions? Once someone in Navy got successful in getting INS Jalashwa into service. She could have had a sister ship too, why doesn't she have one? There's a reason.

And AWACS wouldn't be leased. Training systems can and possibly be leased. Tankers cannot be leased as untill the company which owns them is Indian, we will have real difficulties in operation of those systems during a war effort.

 

[Ashwin]

Well I might be wrong on the life cycle costs but every manufacturers had exxagerated their specifications on paper for the RFI which was claimed by a DA employee. We have a very bad and torturous tendering process. Most companies wouldn't even sell us because of how bad our tendering is. That's why a lot companies don't even respond now when we give out rfi's. And this government hasn't really improved the tendering process even our fast track procurement are similar to proper procurements of developed countries. The Pakistanis are way faster on procuring weapons than us because they have a very straight forward procurement policy. It's their bad luck that they have a shit economy and have a bad rapport otherwise we wouldn't even be able to to be on par with them if Pakistan wasn't an international pariah state...

That is a different issue. Over promising is expected. For example no one had operation AESA when RFP was issued.

I was talking about winning L1.

 

[Lolwa]

That is a different issue. Over promising is expected. For example no one had operation AESA when RFP was issued.

I was talking about winning L1.

The typhoon actually became L1 after some changes EADS made to the deal but the IAF wouldn't change it saying it was too late. Plus the whole connection EADS had with congress for lobbying came under scrutiny...

 

[Lolwa]

2nd hand aircraft carrier and 2nd hand civilian aircraft with not more than 60 pieces made around 20 years back. Not the same thing.

Who will bear the responsibility of such actions? Once someone in Navy got successful in getting INS Jalashwa into service. She could have had a sister ship too, why doesn't she have one? There's a reason.

And AWACS wouldn't be leased. Training systems can and possibly be leased. Tankers cannot be leased as untill the company which owns them is Indian, we will have real difficulties in operation of those systems during a war effort.

That's my point why are we leasing anything in the first place. It's because of our failing system. The IN has been using second hand AC's post independence. We shouldn't have been brought into the position of buying the vikramaditya. And Pakistan is a failed state my point is that if a failed state has a better procurement policy than India then where do we stand. They also bought spanking new VT-4's doesn't matter if they paid for it or not. They have their gaps covered while our gaps only become larger because we sit and do the inefficient tendering process..

 

[AbRaj]

The problem is capability costs money. If we try to replicate their levels of advancement indigenously, we will have to pay a lot as well. Technology isn't cheap, especially when it comes to the most hi-tech stuff. For example, the Arjun Mk1A costs no more than the latest Abrams, and the Abrams is far more advanced.

So the choice is between developing our own stuff which will be inadequate for a long time or buy expensive Western stuff until the time we can perform R&D at the required levels necessary to make equivalent stuff. And we are not there yet.

True but We don’t have to replicate US or EU on everything. It will drain our economy hamper the development like Pakistanis are facing replicating us.
Instead we should better focus on cheaper and effective platforms with advanced weapons and technologies.

Import what gives us maximum advantage in minimum cost. No big items. Only components/systems

 

[Lolwa]

I saw a tweet from Mr Harsh Vardhan Thakur on hyped up low RCS. Based on his twet I am telling you no matter how low RCS you have in clean configuration, the moment you add any weapon below it's belly it's gonna go above 1.5 sqm and any decent air craft with radar will pick you beyond the range any existing a2a missile ( yeah Meteor was operational at that time)

Now ,do high RCS is really dis advantage,do low RCS really matters? During Feb 27 aerial engagement MKI might have detected by PAF much agead, & MKI 's powerful radar might have picked f16 BVR range too. But both sides failed to achieve any kill in BVR range.

What matters more incase of experienced pilots is aircraft's kinematic performance,EW suit & Air to air missile . F15EX will have better kinematics performance than MKI,it's EW suit will be on par with Rafale. And I don't want to comment anything on f15's weapon package.

And no f15's RCS doesn't matters here,what matters here is it's coast.

I disagree the mig 21 pretty much went inside Pakistani airspace without being detected until the f16 was shot down. So rcs does matter. It also shows that the mki's rcs is big enough that it made the f16's ignore the mig 21 for a while.

The Chinese plaaf also uses a strategy where the j16's will act as bait, the j20 will give them cover and the j10 will go in and do the dogfight which proves that even Chinese haven't been able to reduce the rcs that much as they claim for the j16. And f15E has an rcs of around 10sqm more than the mki even. And Boeing hasn't done any rcs reduction on the F15EX so it will have more rcs than the mki. Epawws though is as good as spectra and pretty powerful too...