Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Parthu]

" On the face of it, the IAF loves the Rafale, and is looking forward to operating it. It also fits with the IAF’s expansive air dominance requirements on two fronts with a nuclear undertone. It will also be the first fighter the IAF operates with a smorgasbord of new technologies, including an operational new generation AESA radar. But 36 aircraft is a bit of a nothingburger for both the IAF and France. For the IAF, it’s a complex addition to inventory without numbers that speak economy of scale. " -- Shiv Aroor

Everything you always wanted to know about Indian air power, but were afraid to ask: In conversation with Shiv Aroor

 

[randomradio]

" On the face of it, the IAF loves the Rafale, and is looking forward to operating it. It also fits with the IAF’s expansive air dominance requirements on two fronts with a nuclear undertone. It will also be the first fighter the IAF operates with a smorgasbord of new technologies, including an operational new generation AESA radar. But 36 aircraft is a bit of a nothingburger for both the IAF and France. For the IAF, it’s a complex addition to inventory without numbers that speak economy of scale. " -- Shiv Aroor

Everything you always wanted to know about Indian air power, but were afraid to ask: In conversation with Shiv Aroor

From the article--

(did you know the IAF didn’t even want the Su-30MKI?)

This part is true. The IAF wanted the tried and tested M-2000 first. And you see the same thing repeating with the FGFA today, with Rafale on the other side.

 

[The enlightened]

From the article--


This part is true. The IAF wanted the tried and tested M-2000 first. And you see the same thing repeating with the FGFA today, with Rafale on the other side.

Then it's a good thing that the IAF is not in charge of decision making.

 

[randomradio]

Then it's a good thing that the IAF is not in charge of decision making.

It has a lot more to do with what's cheaper while meeting requirements and comes with more ToT. The M-2000 was more expensive and came with less ToT.

Of course, there will be differences of opinion within the IAF itself.

That's why I prefer to go by what the special panels say. The panels have access to all information and they do not use their biases to make a judgement. Nor can they be influenced with money or power.

 

[The enlightened]

It has a lot more to do with what's cheaper while meeting requirements and comes with more ToT. The M-2000 was more expensive and came with less ToT.

Of course, there will be differences of opinion within the IAF itself.

That's why I prefer to go by what the special panels say. The panels have access to all information and they do not use their biases to make a judgement. Nor can they be influenced with money or power.

M-2000 is not in the same league as MKI. If any serving officer made a recommendation for it against MKI he should have his head checked before being sent to the firing squad for treason.

 

[randomradio]

M-2000 is not in the same league as MKI. If any serving officer made a recommendation for it against MKI he should have his head checked before being sent to the firing squad for treason.

It wasn't a MKI vs M-2000 from an operational perspective. It was a financial choice. It was either the M-2000 or the MKI that will be signed first. So we signed up for the MKI first in 1996 and then started the MRCA contest in 2001.

Anyway, history is repeating now. Rafale vs FGFA. They don't conflict role wise, but it's either/or due to finances. Again, we will likely sign up for FGFA first and then start the tender for Rafale next year.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

UK Royal Navy promoting Rafale

 

[RedCannon]

It wasn't a MKI vs M-2000 from an operational perspective. It was a financial choice. It was either the M-2000 or the MKI that will be signed first. So we signed up for the MKI first in 1996 and then started the MRCA contest in 2001.

Anyway, history is repeating now. Rafale vs FGFA. They don't conflict role wise, but it's either/or due to finances. Again, we will likely sign up for FGFA first and then start the tender for Rafale next year.

Are you sure about FGFA, I see no signs of that.
Also can you elaborate on what we are getting/asking with FGFA and/or with Rafale's in terms of Tech, manufacturing, IPRs.

 

[randomradio]

Are you sure about FGFA, I see no signs of that.

Can't say because there are so many options on how they go about it.

They can buy the Russian version, they can go for a modernized version of the Russian development, they can go for the FGFA itself. The numbers can be small and imported or there will be license production. It can go anywhere.

But the aircraft has become important ever since the J-20 was inducted.

Also can you elaborate on what we are getting/asking with FGFA and/or with Rafale's in terms of Tech, manufacturing, IPRs.

FGFA: Full production and export license. Full ToT. 50% ownership of foreground IPR.
We can do whatever we want with the aircraft.

Rafale: 50% ToT. No ownership.
Gotta knock on French doors for modifications.

But there is likely to be little difference between the two on the ground. Although we have asked only for 50% ToT, the French can easily provide much more than that as long as making the part in India is cheaper. So if it makes financial sense to increase ToT, they will do it. And they have openly said Indian Rafales will be 20% cheaper, which means more or less 100% of the aircraft will be made in India. And even if we have to knock on French doors for modifications, the French will move their doors to Nagpur, so there's no difference there.

 

[Bali78]

FGFA: Full production and export license. Full ToT. 50% ownership of foreground IPR.
We can do whatever we want with the aircraft.

April 1st is already over in India .
After paying $300 million, Indian engineers were not even allowed to take a closer look at T-50 and you expect all these??

 

[randomradio]

April 1st is already over in India .
After paying $300 million, Indian engineers were not even allowed to take a closer look at T-50 and you expect all these??

Parrikar has been working on this since Feb 2016.

If we are going to sign this contract, we can be less worried about ToT. Mistakes were made in the past and the Russians slipped through certain loopholes that have since been plugged. We have received pretty much all the technology we had signed up for in the past, albeit with major delays.

Plus, this program is important for the Russians also. They don't have alternatives.

 

[Bali78]

Parrikar has been working on this since Feb 2016.

If we are going to sign this contract, we can be less worried about ToT. Mistakes were made in the past and the Russians slipped through certain loopholes that have since been plugged. We have received pretty much all the technology we had signed up for in the past, albeit with major delays.

Plus, this program is important for the Russians also. They don't have alternatives.

No contract is foolproof, let alone the one drafted by Indian babus!! Russians will always find loopholes to hoodwink us.

In next 5 years, it's India who will be desperate for a 5th gen fighter. As China starts inducting J-20s in huge numbers, IAF will raise alarm and our options are limited to just 2 (Other one comes with extreme long waiting time and tons of baggage). So the chances of Russia being forced to accept our conditions is extremely slim. Apart from that, when India is clearly drifting towards USA, why would Russia agree to do complete ToT for cutting edge technologies?? Just doesn't make any sense!!

Russia has just moved one level up by demonstrating their nuclear powered cruise missile with unlimited range, high speed under water drones and Ballistic missiles which can reach US from either side of the globe. At this point of time or any time soon, US and it's partners have no counter measures for these. Russia played really smart and moved the game away from conventional superiority of NATO.

Why should they invest billions on a half cooked 5th gen fighter, which will never be anywhere close to F-22!! Have you seen any urgency from Russians to develop Su-57? Why do you think it will be any different in future?

 

[randomradio]

No contract is foolproof, let alone the one drafted by Indian babus!! Russians will always find loopholes to hoodwink us.

In next 5 years, it's India who will be desperate for a 5th gen fighter. As China starts inducting J-20s in huge numbers, IAF will raise alarm and our options are limited to just 2 (Other one comes with extreme long waiting time and tons of baggage). So the chances of Russia being forced to accept our conditions is extremely slim. Apart from that, when India is clearly drifting towards USA, why would Russia agree to do complete ToT for cutting edge technologies?? Just doesn't make any sense!!

Russia has just moved one level up by demonstrating their nuclear powered cruise missile with unlimited range, high speed under water drones and Ballistic missiles which can reach US from either side of the globe. At this point of time or any time soon, US and it's partners have no counter measures for these. Russia played really smart and moved the game away from conventional superiority of NATO.

Why should they invest billions on a half cooked 5th gen fighter, which will never be anywhere close to F-22!! Have you seen any urgency from Russians to develop Su-57? Why do you think it will be any different in future?

Technology will be transferred to a single company owned by both Russia and India. So it's different from other license production projects. It's like Brahmos, but better.

They need Indian money and market to afford the program themselves. So even they are party to any delays caused by India.

Russia is not moving away from improving their conventional capabilities. Armata is case in point. So is PAK FA. They seem to have started their own infantry modernization program.
Russia to spend trillions to modernize its army and navy, paying special attention to nuclear deterrence systems and high precision weapons

They are already buying hundreds of Flankers. And they want to add 2500+ T-14s by 2025. They have plans of introducing a highly modernized conventional capability before 2030.

Lastly, when the FGFA is ready, it will be way superior to the F-22. You should stop believing western articles about the aircraft. Stealth has progressed far beyond shaping alone. Even AMCA is expected to have only half its stealth coming from shaping. This figure is over 95% for the F-22.

 

[Bali78]

Technology will be transferred to a single company owned by both Russia and India. So it's different from other license production projects. It's like Brahmos, but better.

They need Indian money and market to afford the program themselves. So even they are party to any delays caused by India.

Russia is not moving away from improving their conventional capabilities. Armata is case in point. So is PAK FA. They seem to have started their own infantry modernization program.
Russia to spend trillions to modernize its army and navy, paying special attention to nuclear deterrence systems and high precision weapons

They are already buying hundreds of Flankers. And they want to add 2500+ T-14s by 2025. They have plans of introducing a highly modernized conventional capability before 2030.

Lastly, when the FGFA is ready, it will be way superior to the F-22. You should stop believing western articles about the aircraft. Stealth has progressed far beyond shaping alone. Even AMCA is expected to have only half its stealth coming from shaping. This figure is over 95% for the F-22.

Why do you think I believe western media ? Can you point to any significant improvements in Su-57 over last 5-6 years except the new engine whose details are not known yet? What makes you think it will be better than F-22?
As an Indian, I would love to be proven wrong in this aspect. But practically I don't see anything to support your point!!

 

[randomradio]

Why do you think I believe western media ? Can you point to any significant improvements in Su-57 over last 5-6 years except the new engine whose details are not known yet? What makes you think it will be better than F-22?
As an Indian, I would love to be proven wrong in this aspect. But practically I don't see anything to support your point!!

It will be more stealthy, have better performance, weapons and avionics.

You shouldn't believe western media because they are biased and don't have first hand information.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

MoD asks IAF to issue request for information for $15-billion order before DefExpo

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has asked the Indian Air Force (IAF) to send out the request for information (RfI) for a $15-billion order for 100 fighter aircraft before the DefExpo starting April 11 in Chennai.
By: Huma Siddiqui | New Delhi | Updated: April 3, 2018 5:05 AM

Rafale has already sold 36 aircraft to the IAF and is hoping to increase that order size as well as ensure commonality of fleet with the Indian Navy’s requirement of 57 aircraft.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has asked the Indian Air Force (IAF) to send out the request for information (RfI) for a $15-billion order for 100 fighter aircraft before the DefExpo starting April 11 in Chennai.

Speaking to FE, an official said, “The MoD is keen that generic RfI is out before the DefExpo – this means there will be no specific mention of single- or twin-engine aircraft requirements. And, all types of fighters that participated in medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender of 2007 would be eligible for consideration again.”

Explaining the procedure of issuing the RfI, former deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Nirdosh Tyagi, who had been directly involved with the MMRCA process, told FE, “The defence procurement procedure-16 clearly states that RfI is not a commitment for procurement. An RfI is not structured as a rigid document, unlike an RfP. The nature of information to be sought through an RfI is clearly stated in the DPP-16. Fighter procurement has been on the list of the IAF for long. If there is requirement to issue an RfI expeditiously, I am sure the IAF will be able to do so.”

Boeing Company’s F-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 and Swedish Gripen, which had earlier lost out in field trials, would have upgraded their offerings by now to meet the qualitative requirements to be issued by the IAF shortly. French firm Dassault Systemes’ Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian Mikoyan’s MiG-35 aircraft are also potential contenders under the new requirements.

Rafale has already sold 36 aircraft to the IAF and is hoping to increase that order size as well as ensure commonality of fleet with the Indian Navy’s requirement of 57 aircraft.

US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, which reportedly wanted to shift F-16 production line to India, is now offering its latest fighter machines – F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) variant and F-35C carrier variant. In 2017, the company had tied up with Tata Advanced Systems as its local partner and currently is in talks with several other companies to build up the supplier network.

Boeing Company, which has been pushing its F-18 Super Hornet for both the IAF and the Indian Navy, is expected to announce a tie-up with Hindustan Aeronautics and Mahindra Group during the DefExpo later this month.

Swedish Gripen has offered to build planes in India in collaboration with local companies as part of the Make in India and Skill India initiatives.

In spite of the sanctioned strength of 42 combat squadrons required by the IAF, this has drastically come down to 31 at present. It would plummet further over the next decade despite addition of some Rafales and Light combat aircraft. There is requirement of at least 200 more fighter aircraft to maintain minimal squadron strength and capability.

MoD asks IAF to issue request for information for $15-billion order before DefExpo

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[Parthu]

MoD asks IAF to issue request for information for $15-billion order before DefExpo

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has asked the Indian Air Force (IAF) to send out the request for information (RfI) for a $15-billion order for 100 fighter aircraft before the DefExpo starting April 11 in Chennai.
By: Huma Siddiqui | New Delhi | Updated: April 3, 2018 5:05 AM

Rafale has already sold 36 aircraft to the IAF and is hoping to increase that order size as well as ensure commonality of fleet with the Indian Navy’s requirement of 57 aircraft.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has asked the Indian Air Force (IAF) to send out the request for information (RfI) for a $15-billion order for 100 fighter aircraft before the DefExpo starting April 11 in Chennai.

Speaking to FE, an official said, “The MoD is keen that generic RfI is out before the DefExpo – this means there will be no specific mention of single- or twin-engine aircraft requirements. And, all types of fighters that participated in medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender of 2007 would be eligible for consideration again.”

Explaining the procedure of issuing the RfI, former deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Nirdosh Tyagi, who had been directly involved with the MMRCA process, told FE, “The defence procurement procedure-16 clearly states that RfI is not a commitment for procurement. An RfI is not structured as a rigid document, unlike an RfP. The nature of information to be sought through an RfI is clearly stated in the DPP-16. Fighter procurement has been on the list of the IAF for long. If there is requirement to issue an RfI expeditiously, I am sure the IAF will be able to do so.”

Boeing Company’s F-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 and Swedish Gripen, which had earlier lost out in field trials, would have upgraded their offerings by now to meet the qualitative requirements to be issued by the IAF shortly. French firm Dassault Systemes’ Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian Mikoyan’s MiG-35 aircraft are also potential contenders under the new requirements.

Rafale has already sold 36 aircraft to the IAF and is hoping to increase that order size as well as ensure commonality of fleet with the Indian Navy’s requirement of 57 aircraft.

US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, which reportedly wanted to shift F-16 production line to India, is now offering its latest fighter machines – F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) variant and F-35C carrier variant. In 2017, the company had tied up with Tata Advanced Systems as its local partner and currently is in talks with several other companies to build up the supplier network.

Boeing Company, which has been pushing its F-18 Super Hornet for both the IAF and the Indian Navy, is expected to announce a tie-up with Hindustan Aeronautics and Mahindra Group during the DefExpo later this month.

Swedish Gripen has offered to build planes in India in collaboration with local companies as part of the Make in India and Skill India initiatives.

In spite of the sanctioned strength of 42 combat squadrons required by the IAF, this has drastically come down to 31 at present. It would plummet further over the next decade despite addition of some Rafales and Light combat aircraft. There is requirement of at least 200 more fighter aircraft to maintain minimal squadron strength and capability.

MoD asks IAF to issue request for information for $15-billion order before DefExpo

About a week to go!



By the way, that picture is without a doubt one of the best shots of Rafale ever!

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[Ashwin]

@Aashish