Some one need to account goi & mod too to for providing minimalist miney for R&D. You will get what you paid for.
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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I feel there is too much contradiction in this post. If our policy makers have decided that we can't bridge the technological gap with numbers, then the answer is to either not fight or bridge the gap using more sophisticated technology with lesser numbers.
If the rationale is we need Super Hornets in less numbers now so that the numbers can be bolstered during war through EDA transfers from the US, then 2 problems come up. One, the SHs will not be able to fight such a sophisticated adversary anyway. So all we will end up doing is creating more PLAAF aces without achieving anything. You can be sure the SH is not going to penetrate PLAAF air defences in the near future.
The second is that it takes 2 years to train a pilot to the point where he can fly the SH on his own. Different story how long it's going to take such a pilot to actually use the SH to its fullest capability. And only you can tell us what are the chances of survival of a downed pilot from plains on the plateau. So unless we plan on fighting the Chinese for many years, fighter jet transfers from the US is going to be largely useless. This can only work when it comes to support aircraft with trained personnel available in numbers and other types of combat systems where the training time is easy and quick.
Anyway this idea about leasing and transferring jets from US actually works better with France. Don't get fooled by the number of jets that the US operates. According to the USN, they are currently short by 40 jets. And the F-35C doesn't meet the requirements necessary to replace the SH by role. It's going to take at least until 2035 before the NGADs are in enough numbers that the USN will be willing to part with their SH, which will be far too old and meaningless by that time. Otoh, the French are sitting with 50 surplus Rafales today and that number will increase to 100 by 2030. Half their fleet is kept in storage. Also, converting and training a pilot to fly the Rafale is much quicker. There's also the question of survival of the SH's production line. Boeing is hoping Finland and India will keep their line open beyond 2025.
Due to the sophistication necessary to fight the PLAAF, along with the fact that we need an air force to have a surplus amount of jets for EDA transfers and a running production line, this argument only works in favour of the F-35A when considering all American jets.
I wouldn't worry about the LCA or the support needed from the Americans to make it happen. If the MoD becomes serious about it, the LCA's American engine can be replaced with the K9+ within just a few years, it needs only 2 more years of development time, including flight testing. And I wouldn't worry about the import content as well, people have unrealistic expectations from just 20 FOC jets. You can't tell an Indian company they will only be manufacturing their component for 20 jets, they won't participate. And ADA/HAL are buying foreign components in batches, so each successive batch is going to be more indigenous than the previous, which is why there's talk of replacing the Israeli radar and EW suite with Indian in the final batch of the 83 Mk1As.
As for the LCA Mk2, again, let's see where our contract with France goes. If the engine deal goes through, the K10 will need 5-10 years to become available. So the engine can be used on later batches of the Mk2, and also during the MLU of the first few batches.
Anyway the entire LCA family uses different engines compared to the SH, they are not transferrable. All three jets use engines of different dimensions and different materials. Also, as long as we are still in the good graces of America, we do not need to import their fighter jets just to keep our engine deal going. We only require political will to make the indigenous LCA engines happen, the technology already exists, and the Americans will work really hard to scuttle that if more than half our air force ends up being dependent on American engines. You can then be sure that the 30-40 years you have given for an indigneous engine will come true.
Lastly, about the affordability of the MRFA, that argument is completely misplaced. By the time the MRFA deal is signed and the first squadron is inducted, it's going to be 2028 or 2029. Even if we take a pessimistic view of the Indian economy of that time, the IAF's capital budget will still be at least two to three times greater than the cost of even a full MRFA squadron a year, let alone the planned 12 per jet.
You spoke about ordering 64 SHs for the IAF, but the IAF will see much greater benefit if a follow-on order for 36 more Rafales are placed, the capability provided will be greater and it will come at a much cheaper rate. And a more prudent approach would be to complete the K9+ and K10 with French assistance, they have promised full ToT and IP transfer, so that at least later batches of the LCA Mk1A and Mk2 can be equipped with them thereby reducing forex outgo to the US, who have already decided that they won't be transferring engine tech to India.
Finally, if the PLAAF is going to be far too sophisticated, I think the IAF are the only ones who can make the best decision possible on how to counter that. And with their open support for the MRFA, and claiming only AMCA will be their next gen procurement, it appears they have already made a decision on fighter jets for the next 15 years.
Why IAF is not integrating Astra with french aircrafts like Rafale & Mirages? Is there any particular political reason behind this?
theprint.in
here it mentioned like that.
@Picdelamirand-oil @vstol Jockey @hellbent @randomradio @Ashwin
India working on next ‘Astra’ missile with 160 km range as Mk1 is integrated in IAF & Navy
The DRDO expects to complete the extension of range by May 2022. Astra is an indigenous beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.
theprint.in
here it mentioned like that.@Picdelamirand-oil @vstol Jockey @hellbent @randomradio @Ashwin
Better integrate it on widely purchased birds, ie Su30 first, then Mig 29. After that M2000 and Rafale.Why IAF is not integrating Astra with french aircrafts like Rafale & Mirages? Is there any particular political reason behind this?
India working on next ‘Astra’ missile with 160 km range as Mk1 is integrated in IAF & Navy
The DRDO expects to complete the extension of range by May 2022. Astra is an indigenous beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.
@Picdelamirand-oil @vstol Jockey @hellbent @randomradio @Ashwin
It was said that Astra integration was part of the Rafale deal. So wait and see.
The problem is with the % of our population who actually pay income tax. Its 3.3 crores out of 130 or so crores in 2018-19. This may not be the only reason. Its whole another topic but I do agree that we need to increase our budget outlay on R&D.
The query why its not been done french birds. Is it the french are the problem or minimal number of french aircrafts with IAF are the problem?
Dunno where you found these numbers, but no. There's no surplus. If half the fleet is in storage at a given moment, it's because we try to keep them flying no more than 250 hours per year, so an aircraft that filled its yearly quota is put in storage. This also serves to preserve some margin in case of crisis requiring an intensification of flight operations.
What there is, is the possibility of selling a total of 24 Rafales, 12 to Greece (should be officialized in the coming days, if the Greek parliament approves on the 17th of December) and 12 others have been proposed to Croatia, though the deal would require them to wait a bit before getting them. There is no question of offloading these 24 aircraft all at once! And also, the French air force insists on getting its 129 Rafales by 2025.
Would it be possible to sell or lease more Rafales from the AdlA fleet? Perhaps. But do not imagine a miracle such as 50 aircraft delivered next year. That's absolutely out of question. Any further second-hand sale would have to wait for replacement of the aircraft proposed to the current prospect to happen first.
For the Mirage 2000, I figure the reason is the same as why we didn't bother integrating the Meteor on it: the radar doesn't have enough power to allow to exploit the full range of the missile, so it's not interesting. As for the Rafale, it comes with the Meteor, so integrating the Astra is not an operational priority.
However, integrating the Astra and some other Indian-made weapons was part of the list of "ISE" and I have no doubt it is going to happen in the coming years. Keep in mind integrating a weapon on an aircraft is a lengthy and costly process as validating the integration requires doing lots and lots of tests, so it makes sense to postpone this until later when there isn't a pressing need for it.
Why IAF is not integrating Astra with french aircrafts like Rafale & Mirages? Is there any particular political reason behind this?
India working on next ‘Astra’ missile with 160 km range as Mk1 is integrated in IAF & Navy
The DRDO expects to complete the extension of range by May 2022. Astra is an indigenous beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.
@Picdelamirand-oil @vstol Jockey @hellbent @randomradio @Ashwin
The article is not a definitive authority on which aircraft will be getting the Astra.
All our aircraft except Jaguar and Mirage 2000 will get Astra. And the only reason is Jaguar does not have the space to handle it while the M2000's hardpoint design is not suitable for longer missiles than the MICA. Only two hardpoints on M2000 can carry Astra, but that's also at the sacrifice of range since DTs have to be removed. This is also the reason why M2000 cannot carry and use Meteor effectively.
MKI, LCA, Rafale and Mig-29 will easily be able to use Astra.
All that works out. If half the fleet is in storage at any given time in France versus the the full fleet in operation at any given time in America, then it's obvious getting access to the stored Rafales is easier than operational SHs. And given Dassault's advertisement, the safe operting hours of the Rafale per year is 1000 hours. So there's plenty to get out of the remaining Rafales that are operational while some Rafales are transferred to India.
If you are willing to give up 24 Rafales over the next year at this time, then it works perfectly based on what I'm saying because I am referring to something that's needed far into the future, even after Rafale F4.2s have been delivered to the French. Because even @Falcon is referring to sometime in the future, in a world where MRFA has failed to materialise.
I am gonna assume what Falcon's thought process is on this. He says we should get 64 SHs for the IAF, so that we can gain access to USN's stock during wartime. Perhaps if we train 200+ pilots on the SH, then even if we lose 30 of those SHs, the USN can replace those 30+ jets, and we can even get a further batch of 30+ jets since we have the pilots for it. This is what's realistically possible with 200+ pilots. If we want more jets, then we need more pilots than that. So the IAF can indeed train more pilots waiting for the day there's war, considering the USN will agree to part with a sizeable chunk of their fleet, even when they do not have even one extra to spare.
Based on that, my thought process is, it's much cheaper to buy 36 more Rafales than 64 SHs. And the remaining money can even pay for the third carrier very easily and still be left with billions. The 36 Rafales will be far more advanced than those 64 SHs, and will actually be competitive with the PLAAF rather than the turkey shoot that's the SH. And by the time all this plays out, considering the IAF have trained excess pilots for it, I'm sure France will also have excess Rafales available for emergency supplies.
Anyway, even if MRFA doesn't go through, I'm sure the Rafale requirement will come in through GTG. Even the CDS supports continuation of the Rafale program through GTG. So all of the above is simply theoretical and will likely not come to pass.
Something to think about.
The Government of Kuwait has requested to purchase thirty-two (32) F/A-18E aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) F/A-18F aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) spare F414-GE-400 engines and twenty-four (24) engine modules; forty-one (41) AN/APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radars; forty-four (44) M61A2 20mm Gun Systems; forty-five (45) AN/ALR-67(V)3 Radar Warning Receivers; two hundred and forty (240) LAU-127E/A Guided Missile Launchers; forty-five (45) AN/ALE-47 Airborne Countermeasures Dispenser Systems; twelve (12) AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER Advanced Targeting Pods; forty-eight (48) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS); forty-five (45) AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Counter-Measures Systems; forty-five (45) AN/ALE-55 Towed Decoys; forty-eight (48) Link-16 Systems; eight (8) Conformal Fuel Tanks; and fourteen (14) AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR Systems. Also included in the sale are ARC-210 radio (aircraft); Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) systems; AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVG); Launchers (LAU- 115D/A, LAU-116B/A, LAU-l 18A); Command Launch Computer (CLC) for Air to Ground Missile 88 (AGM-88); ANAV/MAGR GPS Navigation; Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); aircraft spares; Aircraft Armament Equipment (AAE); support equipment; aircrew/maintenance training; contractor engineering technical service; logistics technical services; engineering technical services; other technical assistance; contractor logistics support; flight test services; storage and preservation; aircraft ferry; Repair of Repairable (RoR); support systems and associated logistics; training aides and devices; spares; technical data Engineering Change Proposals; avionics software support; software; technical publications; engineering and program support; U.S. Government and contractor engineering; technical and logistic support services. The estimated total program cost is $10.1 billion.
40 SH without any significant customisation and only 35% offsets at $10B. Likely just 1 base handling all the jets.
36 Rafales with ISE and 50% offsets came to $9B. Plus 2 bases capable of handling 4 squadrons. Let's not forget the 50-year maintenance contract, although whether it's the same for SH is not revealed.
The SH is definitely not cheaper than the Rafale even if we consider the SH's price is actually 10% lesser than the estimate, say $9B. One can actually claim that the IAF can buy a full batch of 72 Rafales in lieu of 64 SHs for the same price, probably more, thereby completing the minimum of 6 squadrons necessary for MMRCA.
40 SH without any significant customisation and only 35% offsets at $10B. Likely just 1 base handling all the jets.
36 Rafales with ISE and 50% offsets came to $9B. Plus 2 bases capable of handling 4 squadrons. Let's not forget the 50-year maintenance contract, although whether it's the same for SH is not revealed.
The SH is definitely not cheaper than the Rafale even if we consider the SH's price is actually 10% lesser than the estimate, say $9B. One can actually claim that the IAF can buy a full batch of 72 Rafales in lieu of 64 SHs for the same price, probably more, thereby completing the minimum of 6 squadrons necessary for MMRCA.
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The problem is will Rafale - M fit the bill for Vikrant / Vishal in terms of modifications to the wing folding and STOBAR capability and what would be the add on cost for these ISE's. The same question can be asked for F/A 18 as well. But if we get a better price by combining the IAF / IN orders from Dassault, then we should go for it. If we were to order more than 36 Rafale's for the IAF, then we need to add potentially another base along with the maintenance related costs. If both these options are found to be expensive, then there may be a chance of IN settling for another ~ 36 Mig 29K's for around $2.5 Billion.Something to think about.
The Government of Kuwait has requested to purchase thirty-two (32) F/A-18E aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) F/A-18F aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) spare F414-GE-400 engines and twenty-four (24) engine modules; forty-one (41) AN/APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radars; forty-four (44) M61A2 20mm Gun Systems; forty-five (45) AN/ALR-67(V)3 Radar Warning Receivers; two hundred and forty (240) LAU-127E/A Guided Missile Launchers; forty-five (45) AN/ALE-47 Airborne Countermeasures Dispenser Systems; twelve (12) AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER Advanced Targeting Pods; forty-eight (48) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS); forty-five (45) AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Counter-Measures Systems; forty-five (45) AN/ALE-55 Towed Decoys; forty-eight (48) Link-16 Systems; eight (8) Conformal Fuel Tanks; and fourteen (14) AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR Systems. Also included in the sale are ARC-210 radio (aircraft); Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) systems; AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVG); Launchers (LAU- 115D/A, LAU-116B/A, LAU-l 18A); Command Launch Computer (CLC) for Air to Ground Missile 88 (AGM-88); ANAV/MAGR GPS Navigation; Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); aircraft spares; Aircraft Armament Equipment (AAE); support equipment; aircrew/maintenance training; contractor engineering technical service; logistics technical services; engineering technical services; other technical assistance; contractor logistics support; flight test services; storage and preservation; aircraft ferry; Repair of Repairable (RoR); support systems and associated logistics; training aides and devices; spares; technical data Engineering Change Proposals; avionics software support; software; technical publications; engineering and program support; U.S. Government and contractor engineering; technical and logistic support services. The estimated total program cost is $10.1 billion.
40 SH without any significant customisation and only 35% offsets at $10B. Likely just 1 base handling all the jets.
36 Rafales with ISE and 50% offsets came to $9B. Plus 2 bases capable of handling 4 squadrons. Let's not forget the 50-year maintenance contract, although whether it's the same for SH is not revealed.
The SH is definitely not cheaper than the Rafale even if we consider the SH's price is actually 10% lesser than the estimate, say $9B. One can actually claim that the IAF can buy a full batch of 72 Rafales in lieu of 64 SHs for the same price, probably more, thereby completing the minimum of 6 squadrons necessary for MMRCA.
The discussion was about the IAF and MRFA, not the IN.
We won't get a better price by combining their orders, the F-35 program has already proven that, since the IN's and IAF's operating environment and requirements are different and we will simply be contracting two different jets in one contract, which is anyway impossible by govt contracting rules. IAF and IN have no choice but to go for two separate contracts.
IN is unlikely to go for more Mig-29Ks. It's not a carrier aircraft.
Rafale’s deep-strike cruise missile gets an upgrade for targets in mountains
Rafale carries a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile Meteor with a range of more than 100 km, the potent SCALP cruise missile and the Hammer precision-guided ammunition.
SCALP getting Tweaked specially for LOC and LAC high altitude
Qatar elephant-walking 18 Rafale and 6 Mirage 2000:
Greece to sign €2.3bn deal for 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets
Greece is set to sign a deal with France to purchase 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets for €2.3bn to boost air power.
www.airforce-technology.com
If we given follow on orders, i think delivery may get delayed. I don't know why we are doing this always, its similar to c17 case.
Deliveries cannot be delayed when they haven't been scheduled yet. 
That said, more customers can also be a benefit to India. The assembly line in France is sized for a max of 3 aircraft per month. If there's a need to produce faster, then DRAL's assembly line in India may be called to help.
That said, more customers can also be a benefit to India. The assembly line in France is sized for a max of 3 aircraft per month. If there's a need to produce faster, then DRAL's assembly line in India may be called to help.
Greece to sign €2.3bn deal for 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets
Greece is set to sign a deal with France to purchase 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets for €2.3bn to boost air power.
If we given follow on orders, i think delivery may get delayed. I don't know why we are doing this always, its similar to c17 case.
We need Rafale to win the Swiss and Finnish deals, and also close a deal for an additional 24-36 jets for Qatar along with 36-48 jets for Indonesia, followed by a second deal of 36 for India and possibly a squadron for Morocco. The collective orders will be 200+ and will force Dassault to open up the Indian line for Rafale exports. The bigger the orders, the better for India.
France has elections in 2022
A new assembly line in India will be justified only if IAF orders more jets
Now F 18 has created a new situation
French people never opened a fighter jet line outside France till date. Wheather they opened or not we need another 54 rafales immediately. I didn't expected that we were still under the rule of baffoons ,or else these people will not drag the drill again and again under the changed indo pak & indo china relationship.
Mirage 2000 was never produced outside France
More than 650 were produced as per
Wikipedia
Add to it the Complex And High Technology manufacturing equipment
That itself will require a lot of time and investment to set up the assembly line in a different country