Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The French will get their first F4.2 only in 2027, so that's probably how long the IAF is also willing to wait.

I mean, if the IAF is given the choice of a second F3R batch by 2025-26 with an uncertain future for more orders versus a guaranteed order of 110+ jets or more of the F4.2 version from 2028 onwards, it's obvious what they will pick.

When the F4.2 contract was announced, the availability date was 2025, but you are pushing it back to 2027, whereas the French announced that the standard would be ready in 2024.
What we expect is that the 28 French Rafales that remain to be deployed on the fourth tranche that has been ordered, as well as the 12 Rafales that will replace those that we have sold second-hand to Greece and the 30 Rafales of the fifth tranche that will be ordered in 2023, i.e. 70 Rafales in all, will all be F4.2.
The first 40 will start production in early 2023 and will be F4.2 ready i.e. they will have the necessary F4.2 wiring and cooling system and F4.1 equipment and software, then at an as yet unspecified date in 2024 they will go straight out as F4.2.

 

[randomradio]

When the F4.2 contract was announced, the availability date was 2025, but you are pushing it back to 2027, whereas the French announced that the standard would be ready in 2024.
What we expect is that the 28 French Rafales that remain to be deployed on the fourth tranche that has been ordered, as well as the 12 Rafales that will replace those that we have sold second-hand to Greece and the 30 Rafales of the fifth tranche that will be ordered in 2023, i.e. 70 Rafales in all, will all be F4.2.
The first 40 will start production in early 2023 and will be F4.2 ready i.e. they will have the necessary F4.2 wiring and cooling system and F4.1 equipment and software, then at an as yet unspecified date in 2024 they will go straight out as F4.2.

The industry finishing up with the project is one thing, but there's a long "development" time that happens once the air force gets the jets as well. The aircraft has to be put through its paces and improvements are recommended after they begin flying it operationally. Which is why I prefer the aircraft is in service before we take deliveries. It's easier for the captive air force to recommend improvements than a foreign air force. So what will be done free of cost for the French will be done at a high cost for India.

AFAIK, the first F4.2 delivery is in 2027.

France orders $2.3 billion upgrade for Rafale warplanes

New weapons and data-connectivity features are meant to keep the French go-to military aircraft relevant.

www.defensenews.com

Parly announced that a further 30 aircraft at the full F4 standard would be ordered in 2023 for delivery between 2027 and 2030, taking the French Rafale fleet to a total of 210 fighters.

If the date has been pushed back, then that's also fine. Whatever the case, IAF should get F4.2 at least 6-9 months after ADLA, so that any improvements will find its way easily on IAF jets also, regardless of whether it's 2025 or 2027. It's very tiring to be the first operator of a brand new type and have no control over the OEM.

Based on the dates Parly has mentioned, if the IAF orders a second batch in 2024-25, then we will get the first jet in 2027-28, which is good enough. If MRFA begins in 2022 or 2023, with a contract signature by 2027-28, then the jets will begin delivery around 2030-31, right after the second batch of 36 finishes delivery. And all of them can be the F4.2 standard. So either a second batch or MRFA or both, but after F4.2 has actually finished development.

In the meantime, from 2021 to 2024-25, the IAF can plug all the other gaps they have, like force multipliers, transport aircraft and helicopters along with the signature of 110+ LCA Mk2. So a 2024-25 signature for either a second batch or MRFA will be good enough.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The industry finishing up with the project is one thing, but there's a long "development" time that happens once the air force gets the jets as well. The aircraft has to be put through its paces and improvements are recommended after they begin flying it operationally.

In France, when the air force received the jets, there is no more development of the standard that was delivered: there can be corrections of anomalies, but in theory they tried to correct them all before. On the other hand, the EHIC is experimenting with the new version in order to develop ways of using the new version that make the most of it. This experimentation takes about a year and during this time the air force can use the new version with the same tactics as the previous version.

AFAIK, the first F4.2 delivery is in 2027.

France orders $2.3 billion upgrade for Rafale warplanes

New weapons and data-connectivity features are meant to keep the French go-to military aircraft relevant.

www.defensenews.com

Parly announced that a further 30 aircraft at the full F4 standard would be ordered in 2023 for delivery between 2027 and 2030, taking the French Rafale fleet to a total of 210 fighters.

No, the first F4 delivery will be for the 28 aircraft still to be delivered to complete the fourth tranche. F4.1 first, which will be retrofitted to F4.2 after one year.

If the date has been pushed back, then that's also fine. Whatever the case, IAF should get F4.2 at least 6-9 months after ADLA, so that any improvements will find its way easily on IAF jets also, regardless of whether it's 2025 or 2027. It's very tiring to be the first operator of a brand new type and have no control over the OEM.

6-9 months after ADLA declares the version operational it will be early 2026

Based on the dates Parly has mentioned, if the IAF orders a second batch in 2024-25, then we will get the first jet in 2027-28, which is good enough. If MRFA begins in 2022 or 2023, with a contract signature by 2027-28, then the jets will begin delivery around 2030-31, right after the second batch of 36 finishes delivery. And all of them can be the F4.2 standard. So either a second batch or MRFA or both, but after F4.2 has actually finished development.

To get Rafale F4.2 early 2026 you have to order them early 2023, But you can also order them now, get Rafale F4.2 ready in 2024 with F4.1 software, and complete the configuration in F4.2 a year later.

 

[Bon Plan]

n

Do you see the difference?

Thales on board the Dassault Aviation Rafale

By allowing the pilot to become a real tactical decision-maker rather than simply an analyst of sensors, and by equipping the Rafale with state-of-the-art equipment, Thales, along with Dassault Aviation, contributes to the air superiority of Air Forces in all decisive moments.

www.thalesgroup.com

Now, YES ! the IR dome is different.

 

[Bon Plan]

AFAIK, the first F4.2 delivery is in 2027.

Not really. These 30 will be delivered F4.2 from the beginning.
But the older Rafale will be upgraded to F4.1 before, as the last 28 of the actual order yet to delivered to F4.2 (these 28 are the remaining of the 180 on order, and the 30 are to be added)

 

[randomradio]

In France, when the air force received the jets, there is no more development of the standard that was delivered: there can be corrections of anomalies, but in theory they tried to correct them all before. On the other hand, the EHIC is experimenting with the new version in order to develop ways of using the new version that make the most of it. This experimentation takes about a year and during this time the air force can use the new version with the same tactics as the previous version.


No, the first F4 delivery will be for the 28 aircraft still to be delivered to complete the fourth tranche. F4.1 first, which will be retrofitted to F4.2 after one year.


6-9 months after ADLA declares the version operational it will be early 2026

None of that is actually guaranteed. F3R was already mature when we bought it, whereas F4.2 comes with almost entirely new avionics. Although scientists may agree that development is complete, only ADLA pilots can decide that for sure. So there is some time necessary after certification to know for sure.

To get Rafale F4.2 early 2026 you have to order them early 2023, But you can also order them now, get Rafale F4.2 ready in 2024 with F4.1 software, and complete the configuration in F4.2 a year later.

That's not desirable. A mature aircraft was a critical requirement for MMRCA, so the same is expected to be followed for any new batch. So the F4.2 will require flight testing before a procurement decision is made.

Otoh, the IAF is quite happy with more F3R until MRFA delivers F4.2 in large quantities. The IAF only wants proven jets that can be taken to battle as soon as they come in. Which is actually why a 2026-27 contract for MRFA is more desirable for the F4.2 so the aircraft is fully mature when it's inducted in 2030.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

None of that is actually guaranteed. F3R was already mature when we bought it, whereas F4.2 comes with almost entirely new avionics. Although scientists may agree that development is complete, only ADLA pilots can decide that for sure. So there is some time necessary after certification to know for sure.



That's not desirable. A mature aircraft was a critical requirement for MMRCA, so the same is expected to be followed for any new batch. So the F4.2 will require flight testing before a procurement decision is made.

Otoh, the IAF is quite happy with more F3R until MRFA delivers F4.2 in large quantities. The IAF only wants proven jets that can be taken to battle as soon as they come in. Which is actually why a 2026-27 contract for MRFA is more desirable for the F4.2 so the aircraft is fully mature when it's inducted in 2030.

Fortunately, it is not you who decides.

How much do you think you have to bribe to change the decision? Is € one million enough?

 

[randomradio]

Fortunately, it is not you who decides.

A Vice Air Marshal wrote an article through a think tank saying MRFA is very necessary if we are to challenge the Chinese. The ACM said last year that a final call is yet to be taken on both second batch procurement and MRFA, but he pointed out that funding is the problem. I'm just repeating what others are saying. Both have basically supported the numbers needed through MRFA.

At least I'm pretty sure the F4.2 decision will be taken based on flight testing, and not just by reading paper specs in a file. The lack of flight testing also killed FGFA, one of the reasons. The IAF has never imported any fighter jet without flight testing it first.

The thing is after March 2022, by then 36 Rafale and 32 LCAs will be operational, the IAF will rapidly see the entry of 33 Russian jets and 91 LCAs in a short period of time, along with a combined 384 light heliocopters at 60 per year and 180+ attack helicopters at 30/year for the IA and IAF. It's easily one of the biggest 5+ year procurement periods this century for the IAF. There are also pending programs for AWACS, refuellers, transports and EW aircraft. There's also the S-400 and MRSAM programs, which are worth billions, followed by an indigenous long range SAM program, and also the massive BMD program. The IA also has 5 air defence systems pending signature, Akash (2 rgts), MRSAM (5 rgts), QRSAM (8 rgts), SPADGMS (5 rgts) and MANPADS (thousands). So I'm not sure how the IAF will find the money for more Rafales in the next 3 years when the other programs mentioned above have higher priority.

How much do you think you have to bribe to change the decision? Is € one million enough?

Should be enough to get an under-the-table meeting with MoD officials for the actual discussion on the amount.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

At least I'm pretty sure the F4.2 decision will be taken based on flight testing, and not just by reading paper specs in a file. The lack of flight testing also killed FGFA, one of the reasons. The IAF has never imported any fighter jet without flight testing it first.

You don't understand the way standards are developed in France.
For example the Finns have already been able to test the F4.2 standard from 20 January 2021.
What is currently being done on this standard is to make it sufficiently robust for it to be declared operational, i.e. for us to go to war with it.
If the IAF wants to test F4.2, it is possible, but to go to war with it, we will have to wait for the delivery of the aircraft.
F3R + ISE was a new standard for India and it was not operational when you bought it. The development cost was 1.7 billion, only slightly less than the 2.3 billion of F4.2.

 

[Hydra]

None of that is actually guaranteed. F3R was already mature when we bought it, whereas F4.2 comes with almost entirely new avionics. Although scientists may agree that development is complete, only ADLA pilots can decide that for sure. So there is some time necessary after certification to know for sure.



That's not desirable. A mature aircraft was a critical requirement for MMRCA, so the same is expected to be followed for any new batch. So the F4.2 will require flight testing before a procurement decision is made.

Otoh, the IAF is quite happy with more F3R until MRFA delivers F4.2 in large quantities. The IAF only wants proven jets that can be taken to battle as soon as they come in. Which is actually why a 2026-27 contract for MRFA is more desirable for the F4.2 so the aircraft is fully mature when it's inducted in 2030.

Then why we are not going for additional f3R now? There are some reports of PAF getting few blk 52s, may be its a true or may be it a hoax. But we need to be prepared. There is no justification for going withe mere 36 jets incase of a country like India.

After all we can upgrade F3R to f4 in later stage.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Then why we are not going for additional f3R now? There are some reports of PAF getting few blk 52s, may be its a true or may be it a hoax. But we need to be prepared. There is no justification for going withe mere 36 jets incase of a country like India.

After all we can upgrade F3R to f4 in later stage.

Ah! I found a candidate to be the middleman

 

[Hydra]

Ah! I found a candidate to be the middleman

Jokes apart, is it possible to upgrade f3R to f4 standard and later f4.2 or higher without changing any hardware.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Jokes apart, is it possible to upgrade f3R to f4 standard and later f4.2 or higher without changing any hardware.

All Rafales that are started after June 2019, which includes the Rafales you can buy now, will be "F4.2 ready". This means that even if they come out as F3R they will be upgradable to F4.2 at a reasonable cost, i.e. no need to upgrade the wiring and cooling system. I think the first batch you get now is already like that, but I'm not sure.

 

[randomradio]

You don't understand the way standards are developed in France.
For example the Finns have already been able to test the F4.2 standard from 20 January 2021.
What is currently being done on this standard is to make it sufficiently robust for it to be declared operational, i.e. for us to go to war with it.
If the IAF wants to test F4.2, it is possible, but to go to war with it, we will have to wait for the delivery of the aircraft.
F3R + ISE was a new standard for India and it was not operational when you bought it. The development cost was 1.7 billion, only slightly less than the 2.3 billion of F4.2.

F3R was a software upgrade and ISE was merely secondary additions to already existing hardware. Whereas F4.2 is a full hardware reset.

Now I don't know to what extent the F4.2 standard has been developed and introduced in prototypes, but if it can be tested in Indian conditions then it's gonna be fine.

Then why we are not going for additional f3R now? There are some reports of PAF getting few blk 52s, may be its a true or may be it a hoax. But we need to be prepared. There is no justification for going withe mere 36 jets incase of a country like India.

After all we can upgrade F3R to f4 in later stage.

They are still deciding whether to go for a second batch or MRFA or both, everything based on the need for it and the funds available.

 

[Hydra]

F3R was a software upgrade and ISE was merely secondary additions to already existing hardware. Whereas F4.2 is a full hardware reset.

Now I don't know to what extent the F4.2 standard has been developed and introduced in prototypes, but if it can be tested in Indian conditions then it's gonna be fine.


They are still deciding whether to go for a second batch or MRFA or both, everything based on the need for it and the funds available.

The original mmrca requirements was 126 fighters, if my memory is correct IAF had a plan to stretch that number to 180+. So definitely there is a room for additional Rafales & mmrca2/MRFA, We must find money for that purchase.

Personaly i would like to see a total of 90 rafales and F15EX through mmrca2 or g2g purchase ( I know many members will have apprehension on a US fighter and it's capabilities).

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

F3R was a software upgrade and ISE was merely secondary additions to already existing hardware. Whereas F4.2 is a full hardware reset.

Now I don't know to what extent the F4.2 standard has been developed and introduced in prototypes, but if it can be tested in Indian conditions then it's gonna be fine.


They are still deciding whether to go for a second batch or MRFA or both, everything based on the need for it and the funds available.

What is being offered to Finland is F4.2 and Finland has said that they want to test what they will buy, and in particular only the performance that they can measure will be included in the simulation that will determine the performance of the fleet that can be bought with their budget.
Among the two Rafales that went to Finland for these tests was the B 301, which is the Rafale that tests all the innovations in flight.

 

[randomradio]

The original mmrca requirements was 126 fighters, if my memory is correct IAF had a plan to stretch that number to 180+. So definitely there is a room for additional Rafales & mmrca2/MRFA, We must find money for that purchase.

Personaly i would like to see a total of 90 rafales and F15EX through mmrca2 or g2g purchase ( I know many members will have apprehension on a US fighter and it's capabilities).

There is room for 200+ Rafales, but the pocket right now is not big enough. It will get big enough by 2028 or so. Until then it's either a second batch or nothing.

 

[randomradio]

What is being offered to Finland is F4.2 and Finland has said that they want to test what they will buy, and in particular only the performance that they can measure will be included in the simulation that will determine the performance of the fleet that can be bought with their budget.
Among the two Rafales that went to Finland for these tests was the B 301, which is the Rafale that tests all the innovations in flight.

Can't rely on that though, since there's no information from the Finnish confirming the version they tested along with the technologies available during the time of the tests. I guess time will tell.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Can't rely on that though,

Because you don't know Dassault.

 

[randomradio]

Because you don't know Dassault.

It has nothing to do with the OEM, it has everything to do with some sort of confirmation from a client. Maybe by the end of the year, someone in Finland may confirm the version that was finally simulated. Actually I'd be fine even if Dassault confirmed it officially, although I think it's the policy of companies in general to let the client decide to reveal any information.