Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Hydra]

There is room for 200+ Rafales, but the pocket right now is not big enough. It will get big enough by 2028 or so. Until then it's either a second batch or nothing.

Money is available with India, the problem is goi is having some other priorities. The cleverly ignoring china pakistan factor .
Instead of current spending of 1-1.5% of current GDP, we should increase that figure for atleast next five to seven years.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

It has nothing to do with the OEM, it has everything to do with some sort of confirmation from a client. Maybe by the end of the year, someone in Finland may confirm the version that was finally simulated. Actually I'd be fine even if Dassault confirmed it officially, although I think it's the policy of companies in general to let the client decide to reveal any information.

This is not what I meant: I will explain how my knowledge of Dassault allows me to understand that they have presented F4.2.

First of all, F4.1 is F4.2 without the functions linked to the new equipment, and as there is only 1 year between the availability of F4.1 and F4.2, this means that the prototypes of the new equipment arrived at Dassault 1 year after the signature of the F4 contract, i.e. 1 year after January 14, 2019, which gives January 2020. So Dassault has had 1 year to make F4.2 presentable to the Finns which is more than enough time as a lot of the work has been done in the PEA. As the B401 is the aircraft that is doing the flight development of this standard and there is no question of this version being uninstalled on this aircraft, the fact that it was presented in Finland for official testing combined with the fact that it is F4.2 that is being offered to the Finns for their programme proves to me that the Finns were able to test F4.2.

 

[randomradio]

Money is available with India, the problem is goi is having some other priorities. The cleverly ignoring china pakistan factor .
Instead of current spending of 1-1.5% of current GDP, we should increase that figure for atleast next five to seven years.

Increased defence spending will happen soon. It began since last year due to emergency purchases. Hence a massive rise in the capital budget this year.

If we are to fund everything we need, then the capital budget has to double over a two-year period and then post regular inflation+few percentage points increments over the decade. The alternative is to increase the capital budget by significant amounts every year.

Defence was supposed to get increased priority from the 14th 5-year plan starting in 2022, with a lot of tenders and domestic R&D efforts coming into play, and go into overdrive in the 15th plan, ie 2027, as production ramps up. And due to the stuff happening at the border, it began a bit earlier than anticipated. The momentum of India's economy would have taken care of the rest after 2032.

So if the capital budget is doubled over the next 2-3 years, it will be possible to bring in more Rafales. Without the doubling, it's gonna be quite impossible due to the other systems needed.

 

[randomradio]

This is not what I meant: I will explain how my knowledge of Dassault allows me to understand that they have presented F4.2.

First of all, F4.1 is F4.2 without the functions linked to the new equipment, and as there is only 1 year between the availability of F4.1 and F4.2, this means that the prototypes of the new equipment arrived at Dassault 1 year after the signature of the F4 contract, i.e. 1 year after January 14, 2019, which gives January 2020. So Dassault has had 1 year to make F4.2 presentable to the Finns which is more than enough time as a lot of the work has been done in the PEA. As the B401 is the aircraft that is doing the flight development of this standard and there is no question of this version being uninstalled on this aircraft, the fact that it was presented in Finland for official testing combined with the fact that it is F4.2 that is being offered to the Finns for their programme proves to me that the Finns were able to test F4.2.

I recall you saying earlier that F4.1 is all software with existing F3R hardware and that F4.2 comes with all new hardware.

You also said that all aircraft before F3R will get the F4.1 software upgrades whereas only aircraft after F3R can get the F4.2 hardware.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I recall you saying earlier that F4.1 is all software with existing F3R hardware and that F4.2 comes with all new hardware.

You also said that all aircraft before F3R will get the F4.1 software upgrades whereas only aircraft after F3R can get the F4.2 hardware.

It all depends on when I said it, the situation is complicated and changing, the explanations are always simplified. The definition of the airframe capable of hosting F4.2 is relatively simple and its realization does not present difficulties and therefore it was possible to produce such airframes before F4.2 was available. An F4.2 airframe is the same price as an old airframe, what is expensive is to dismantle an old airframe and transform it into an F4.2 airframe.

 

[randomradio]

It all depends on when I said it, the situation is complicated and changing, the explanations are always simplified. The definition of the airframe capable of hosting F4.2 is relatively simple and its realization does not present difficulties and therefore it was possible to produce such airframes before F4.2 was available. An F4.2 airframe is the same price as an old airframe, what is expensive is to dismantle an old airframe and transform it into an F4.2 airframe.

So the F4.1 comes with new hardware?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

So the F4.1 comes with new hardware?

So we will order more planes only when F 4.2 is ready

 

[randomradio]

So we will order more planes only when F 4.2 is ready

That's what I think. But Picdel says F4.2 can be ordered anytime now and will be operationally ready when delivery happens in 3 years.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

So the F4.1 comes with new hardware?

No, but my first explanation only involved pre-F3R and post-F3R aircraft, now there are also aircraft that are F3R but are ready to accept the new F4.2 equipment

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

No, but my first explanation only involved pre-F3R and post-F3R aircraft, now there are also aircraft that are F3R but are ready to accept the new F4.2 equipment

Sir are there any secret negotiations going on for a follow on order or a Make in India deal

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Sir are there any secret negotiations going on for a follow on order or a Make in India deal

You want me to break secrets?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

You want me to break secrets?

Here there is no information available

So I thought , maybe you know something

 

[Hydra]

You want me to break secrets?

Or may be the name of secret middle man

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Or may be the name of secret middle man

But it is well known: the intermediary is Sushen Gupta who is a friend of the famous Christian Michel, himself a friend of Robert Vadra, himself a brother-in-law of Raoul Gandhi.

 

[AllStirFry]

@

Sir, good day, may I instead please ask you on your confidence levels on a second batch of 36 or 54 gtg Rafale direct purchase happening ? or is your confidence level much higher on the 114 units tender happening and Dassault winning it?

 

[randomradio]

@Sir, good day, may I instead please ask you on your confidence levels on a second batch of 36 or 54 gtg Rafale direct purchase happening ? or is your confidence level much higher on the 114 units tender happening and Dassault winning it?

Even the air force does not know.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Sir, good day, may I instead please ask you on your confidence levels on a second batch of 36 or 54 gtg Rafale direct purchase happening ? or is your confidence level much higher on the 114 units tender happening and Dassault winning it?

The answer to this question is in India!

From what @randomradio says it seems that MOD would want 36 (or maybe 0) and IAF would want 114 and MRFA. But for me the reason for the IAF wanting this is that they would want F4.2 when the 36 should be F3R.

What I tried to say is that if we order Rafales now they will be F4.2 compatible anyway and they will come out in F4.1 because we don't produce F3R anymore.

To upgrade from F4.1 to F4.2 on these aircraft will only require a software update, which takes 2 hours, and the purchase of missing equipment such as radar side panels. The installation of this equipment will not be more cumbersome than a maintenance.

Given this information, from my point of view, there is no disadvantage in taking 36 Rafales because the fleet can be completed later. And that would satisfy the MOD and the IAF.

 

[AllStirFry]

The answer to this question is in India!

From what @randomradio says it seems that MOD would want 36 (or maybe 0) and IAF would want 114 and MRFA. But for me the reason for the IAF wanting this is that they would want F4.2 when the 36 should be F3R.

What I tried to say is that if we order Rafales now they will be F4.2 compatible anyway and they will come out in F4.1 because we don't produce F3R anymore.

To upgrade from F4.1 to F4.2 on these aircraft will only require a software update, which takes 2 hours, and the purchase of missing equipment such as radar side panels. The installation of this equipment will not be more cumbersome than a maintenance.

Given this information, from my point of view, there is no disadvantage in taking 36 Rafales because the fleet can be completed later. And that would satisfy the MOD and the IAF.

Thank you sir, do have a pleasant day!

 

[A Person]

I recall you saying earlier that F4.1 is all software with existing F3R hardware and that F4.2 comes with all new hardware.

You also said that all aircraft before F3R will get the F4.1 software upgrades whereas only aircraft after F3R can get the F4.2 hardware.

Every standard comes with both software and hardware, but it's more complicated than that because with the Rafale there are two levels of hardware. To simplify, there's the interface and the equipment. Equipment can be anything from sensors (radar, IRST, missile warning system, etc.) to the MDPU racks to the external stores. The software updates are what allows the aircraft to use these new equipment. It's not something that export customers have to deal with so far because all their equipmennt are at the same standard, but the French forces have to deal with being able to still use the older equipment (such as the RBE2 PESA) on F3R aircraft. That's what allows to upgrade the entire fleet without having to replace all the equipment, making such upgrades much more affordable.

The F4 standard defines new interfaces. So any hardware update from F4 that uses the already-existing interface can be plugged on any existing Rafale with just a software update (that's 4.1) while the hardware updates that use the new interfaces will require an airframe with that interface present and a software update (that's 4.2).

 

[randomradio]

Every standard comes with both software and hardware, but it's more complicated than that because with the Rafale there are two levels of hardware. To simplify, there's the interface and the equipment. Equipment can be anything from sensors (radar, IRST, missile warning system, etc.) to the MDPU racks to the external stores. The software updates are what allows the aircraft to use these new equipment. It's not something that export customers have to deal with so far because all their equipmennt are at the same standard, but the French forces have to deal with being able to still use the older equipment (such as the RBE2 PESA) on F3R aircraft. That's what allows to upgrade the entire fleet without having to replace all the equipment, making such upgrades much more affordable.

The F4 standard defines new interfaces. So any hardware update from F4 that uses the already-existing interface can be plugged on any existing Rafale with just a software update (that's 4.1) while the hardware updates that use the new interfaces will require an airframe with that interface present and a software update (that's 4.2).

Then it depends on when the new gen equipment will be introduced. Because the IAF is not going to accept a barebones aircraft and then integrate new equipment as they become available. Whatever comes with the aircraft the first time is what the IAF will be stuck with for a long, long time. Only new additions will be accepted, replacements will not be accepted.

I mean, if Dassault sells the IAF the F3R configuration and then say let's replace all the existing equipment with new F4 equipment, then that's not going to happen. An entirely new contract is needed to change equipment. Or the alternative is Dassault simply switches the old with the new at the same cost. That's what the Israelis did with the Jaguar's radar, when they decided to deliver AESA radars at the same cost as the MS radars.

This reply is actually meant for @Picdelamirand-oil.