With the increased Russian aggressive nature, any major purchase from Russia will attract American embargo. I don't think goi will risk that.
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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Both are required for different roles.
Su-57 Mk2 sits between Rafale F4 and FCAS, so it's most definitely needed, as long as the political situation favours it. There is still a lot of time to decide that though, especially the fact that Mk2 needs to enter service in Russia first. But the Russians are creating a lot of disruptive technologies which the Europeans are only starting with, so it makes sense to procure a small amount as a silver bullet force. The Chinese are definitely going to be ahead within the next 5 years, so we can't afford to lose our edge there.
I'm actually thinking the IAF will show interest in the Su-57 in order to see if the Americans will offer the USAF's NGAD as an alternative. So once the MRFA goes ahead and contract negotiations begin, the IAF will show interest in making an emergency purchase of the Su-57, due to a "sudden need" to counter the "5th" generation J-20, which the "4.5th" generation Rafale cannot. Regardless of whether the govt becomes serious or not, the US will interfere. Plus it won't invite sanctions since it predates CAATSA.
Anyway I don't think GoI will push Russia to the side just to impress the Americans. We have many high end programs which rely on Russian tech, like Brahmos, SFDR, SSBN, T-90, Mig-29, MKI, Talwar class etc, so it makes sense to keep our relationship with Russia as fruitful as possible for at least another 10-15 years.
Is it even possible to think about we going for any other gen5 fighter apart from AMCA now? IAF clearly said they want only AMCA as gen 5 fighter.
And there is a speculation that AMCA even evolve to a gen 6 or atleast a gen5 fighter with few gen 6 elements. So i think HAL DRDO will not allow IAF to go for any foreign gen 5 fighter when we have high ( or unrealistic ) hope on AMCA.
And there is no way US offering its cutting edge fighter to india without we inducts US teen fighters first.
And why do u think that CATSA will not pope up on an indo russian su57 deal?
Sir - how did su-57 mk2 come into the picture? India buying another piece of Russian junk, that can't integrated with western weapon systems?
That's a good show of support for the indigenous industry. But AMCA isn't in the same class as Su-57.
Also Su-57 Mk2 will be available for the Russian AF in 2024, whereas AMCA Mk2, the version you are talking about, is not expected to see IOC until 2037. So the Su-57 can be inducted into the IAF a decade before AMCA Mk2.
AMCA Mk1 is similar to what the Su-57 is right now, with an older engine.
That's not an issue. They are pushing the teens on us, albeit unsuccessfully, because we have a requirement for 4th gen.
And it's obvious that they can't convince the govt to give up on Su-57 in exchange for a teen.
CAATSA is for new deals post its enactment in 2017. Su-57 agreement was signed in 2007, so it doesn't fall under the ambit of CAATSA.
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No need to call me sir.
The J-20's getting good, with the B version that's entered production. So the requirement to counter it will come up by 2025. And as I've pointed out before, the Russians have developed a lot of disruptive technologies for the aircraft. New technologies, new weapons etc, and all that around an airframe and engine that appear to look extremely promising.
Plus it's a good way to force the Americans to show their hand if they want to convince us to not buy Russian, the same way they provided a lot of details about Patriot and THAAD in order to stop the S-400 deal. There's also the advantage of stringing along both countries for a few years, which will give us a massive diplomatic advantage with both. If the Americans end up offering the NGAD in exchange, then that's even better.
Russian jets meant for export are of NATO standards and can be integrated with western weapons, as long as the weapons companies accept it. We can even integrate the Meteor on MKI, but MBDA did not allow it. Otoh, MICA is now operational on MKI. ASRAAM is also planned for it. The MKI is integrated with SPICE as well. So it's not an issue. If we order Su-57, naturally it will come with ISE.
36 jets are so few for a country as big as India. It's a game changer, but not with so little quantity.
Maybe a small step purchase, 18 birds only, and in 2 years 18 more etc...
Yes, if India wanted as many Rafales per capita as France to day it would need 3040 and if it wanted as many as Finland it would need 15078
36 is definitely too few. But that's the point I'm making. 36 is so few that merely another 36 won't help. The IAF need 200-250, and the only way to ensure that many come in is through a large tender.
I never hope for 200+ in India. it's just a wet dream.
Between the heavy investment to have a full indian standard Rafale (today only usefull for 36 jets, a kind of waste for so few), and all the other defense expenditures, I always think the final figure will not be under 72, and not over 150.
There will be a huge hole of missing aircraft then. 'Cause AMCA will not be available in numbers until after 2035. And something is needed between now and 2035.
36 + 114 will give us exactly 150. But if production happens, then the numbers will climb to more than that.
HAL Make crappy models for Aero India too
about four to five full strength squadrons are enough for our current needs
So 18or 20 * 4 = 72 or 80 minimum
6, 8 or 12.
6 is the bare minimum to cover the north, northeast and the centre/southwest. 8 for full spectrum capabilities. 12 for full spectrum capabilities + maintaining full spectrum capabilities even after war attrition.
12 will allow us to have 4 each in the north and the northeast. 2 in the centre and 2 more dispersed in two locations in the southwest.
4 is just a half-way measure. The IAF wanted 5 actually, when the first deal was signed. 16 in 5 squadrons for a total of 80 jets.
Both are needed actually. 12 + 12 squadrons.
Anyway, the speed at which the Chinese are expanding their capabilities is so high that the MKI, even upgraded, will be useless in just a few years. Anything that cannot hide itself in the air is merely waiting to die. The difference between 4th and 5th gen cannot be bridged.
No amount of import can give India any parity vis a vis China’s domestic manufacturing Juggernaut. The earlier we get it the better. We will never have unlimited resources to import top of the line stealth jets,tanks, subs and ACC to compete against Chinese domestic stealth jets, ACC, DDGs, subs etc. it’ll be futile idea and will make our economy bleed and go bankrupt.
Today when China is still catching up to western tech, we can start believing in our ability to fight wars with our own weapons like what France did unlike other European countries.
Yes we definitely need some imports for few more years to give us the decisive technological edge against China but we have to build our own jets, subs etc to supplement these costly imported items.
Like Tejas mk1 networked with Rafales and Sukhois.
What you are suggesting will hinder any chances of domestic MMRCA/HMRCA for decades if not permanently.
If anything just add few more Squadrons of Rafale and be done with imports.
Russian weapons are not going to give us any advantage whatsoever against China or even Pakistan when the former is heavily dependent on China for its survival and the latter will have access to superior weapons from west.
And unlike You, I believe Russian weapons are not going to catch up to US and EU in this century at least in critical areas like Stealth, EW, AAMs,Sonars and other Submarine techs ,AIPs,EMALS etc etc. Specially the cutting edge ones. Just have a look at the data US had in Stealth tech due to using them since WW 2 , their Subs have far superior sensors equipment’s and weapons than Russia can produce in near future.
It’s total madness to even think of defending our country by Imports like what Oil rich gulf monarchies are attempting to do.
As far as weapon platforms are concerned We need LCA mk1 > MWF > AMCA and TE-DBF along with accompanying UAVs.
We should try only to procure subsystems and weapons and not the platform itself.
Same for DDGs, Subs, ACC and Tanks.
We are a big country and it’s high time we start to act like one.
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No matter how much we spend or how much of a will we have, we can't make an equivalent of the Rafale within this decade. Which is why we have to import. And because we are a big country, our requirements are also big. In fact, 200 Rafales is not that big of a number when comparing it to our overall security threats. All it means is we are still a regional power, and our main interests are within a small box inside the IOR. Once we become a global power, we will need 1000+ carrier jets alone, like the US does, if we are to act like they do. Even when operating 1000+ jets, the USN still has a shortage. We have 45. So you can see how much of a distance we are yet to cover.
But we are headed towards the direction where you wish to be, but that's only after this decade is over. LCA has given us the push necessary and by the time we become import-free, it's going to be at least 15+ years, ie when AMCA Mk2 enters service. Let's not forget that we are a $2000 per capita economy competing with economies that are above $50,000. Having an indigenous defence industry is simply economics. If you are rich, you can make cool stuff. We will be very lucky, you can even consider it a major achievement, if we become completely import-free by the time we are a $7500 economy. Until then we gotta import.
You can't substitute greater capability with more numbers of lesser capability. It doesn't work like that. You can't buy 2 mid-end phones and pretend it's equal to one high-end phone. So, while the LCA networked with MKI is needed, it doesn't mean anything without the Rafale. All that will happen is the Chinese will take our jets out, and we will have full situational awareness of how we are getting killed. A 2nd and 4th gen can be bridged, like we did with the Mig-21 Bison, but 4th and 5th gen can't be bridged. It's simply impossible.
As for Russia, you have been reading too much English print media, which Russia does not control, which is why you believe that. It's not really your fault, but that's how propaganda works. Anyway, we only buy good stuff from both sides, so it doesn't really matter. Since the Americans have EMALS tech, we will obviously buy that from the Americans. And the Russians have already operationalised scramjet technology for missiles, so we will buy that from the Russians for Brahmos 2. Similarly we chose the Apache over Mi-28 and Chinook over Mi-26. And so on. It's the same deal with Su-57, we will likely go for it, unless America offers something better. What's important is to chase after what we want. At least you can be sure that the Su-57 will be as good or better than the J-20, which is the main point. We are not gonna be fighting the Americans anytime soon.
For global power games and stuff, we are a long ways away from that. Maybe 20 years down the line we can speak of it, but right now we are only aiming to maintain superiority over our neighbours, even if one of them is China. We are merely a regional power. The only global powers are US, Russia, France and Britain (Britain is going down the drain, but at least they have a very good navy). Even China is still 5-10 years away. India is at least 20 years away. So your aspirations for India are still quite far from our reality.
What about counter measures like Deception Jamming , Barrage Jamming , DRFM Jamming