Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

What about counter measures like Deception Jamming , Barrage Jamming DRFM Jamming

https://twitter.com/x/status/1384911073074106371

It will work to a certain extent. But the J-20 will be able to use its stealth to kill the MKI silently. You can't jam something that's not emitting radar signals in the first place.

 

[AbRaj]

No matter how much we spend or how much of a will we have, we can't make an equivalent of the Rafale within this decade. Which is why we have to import. And because we are a big country, our requirements are also big. In fact, 200 Rafales is not that big of a number when comparing it to our overall security threats. All it means is we are still a regional power, and our main interests are within a small box inside the IOR. Once we become a global power, we will need 1000+ carrier jets alone, like the US does, if we are to act like they do. Even when operating 1000+ jets, the USN still has a shortage. We have 45. So you can see how much of a distance we are yet to cover.

But we are headed towards the direction where you wish to be, but that's only after this decade is over. LCA has given us the push necessary and by the time we become import-free, it's going to be at least 15+ years, ie when AMCA Mk2 enters service. Let's not forget that we are a $2000 per capita economy competing with economies that are above $50,000. Having an indigenous defence industry is simply economics. If you are rich, you can make cool stuff. We will be very lucky, you can even consider it a major achievement, if we become completely import-free by the time we are a $7500 economy. Until then we gotta import.

You can't substitute greater capability with more numbers of lesser capability. It doesn't work like that. You can't buy 2 mid-end phones and pretend it's equal to one high-end phone. So, while the LCA networked with MKI is needed, it doesn't mean anything without the Rafale. All that will happen is the Chinese will take our jets out, and we will have full situational awareness of how we are getting killed. A 2nd and 4th gen can be bridged, like we did with the Mig-21 Bison, but 4th and 5th gen can't be bridged. It's simply impossible.

As for Russia, you have been reading too much English print media, which Russia does not control, which is why you believe that. It's not really your fault, but that's how propaganda works. Anyway, we only buy good stuff from both sides, so it doesn't really matter. Since the Americans have EMALS tech, we will obviously buy that from the Americans. And the Russians have already operationalised scramjet technology for missiles, so we will buy that from the Russians for Brahmos 2. Similarly we chose the Apache over Mi-28 and Chinook over Mi-26. And so on. It's the same deal with Su-57, we will likely go for it, unless America offers something better. What's important is to chase after what we want. At least you can be sure that the Su-57 will be as good or better than the J-20, which is the main point. We are not gonna be fighting the Americans anytime soon.

For global power games and stuff, we are a long ways away from that. Maybe 20 years down the line we can speak of it, but right now we are only aiming to maintain superiority over our neighbours, even if one of them is China. We are merely a regional power. The only global powers are US, Russia, France and Britain (Britain is going down the drain, but at least they have a very good navy). Even China is still 5-10 years away. India is at least 20 years away. So your aspirations for India are still quite far from our reality.

They will swat our costly imported jets with cheap Chinese knockoffs like Ding dong 21 or Dog ding 29 within the firs hour of the war and they we will be on God’s mercy to save our Cheap Desi asses.
Only a large number of Desi SAMs and other domestic cheaper products will survive beyond initial few days to fight.

Over dependence on Imports is sure shot way of defeat IMO. They know it and will take advantage of that by hook or crook.

FYI I’m perfectly fine with my IPhone 7, iPad 6 and HCL ME laptop with intel core 2 duo and 6 GB RAM. Don’t need IPhone 12, iPad Pro or MacBook for effectively doing my job. All I need is a certain things from my gadgets and since I can perform these tasks and use certain apps with my current devices I don’t have to chase for the Latest and greatest here. It’s futile. They will introduce the next upgrade in few time and even the iPhone 12 will be outdated technically.

Russian weapons have historically been proven ineffective against western weapons.
Even recently The much touted Pantsir and S300 got utterly humiliated by the Israeli spike/Harpy.
Similarly compare the performance of F16 and its Russian counterpart Mig 29 and you will understand that all the hype can’t hide the fact that in one to one engagements F16s always come out as winners.Mig 21/23/24/27 etc are just cannon fodders sold to third world or rogue countries to throw them in front of their enemies

 

[Bon Plan]

There will be a huge hole of missing aircraft then. 'Cause AMCA will not be available in numbers until after 2035. And something is needed between now and 2035.



36 + 114 will give us exactly 150. But if production happens, then the numbers will climb to more than that.

I call that a fantasm !

 

[randomradio]

They will swat our costly imported jets with cheap Chinese knockoffs like Ding dong 21 or Dog ding 29 within the firs hour of the war and they we will be on God’s mercy to save our Cheap Desi asses.
Only a large number of Desi SAMs and other domestic cheaper products will survive beyond initial few days to fight.

Over dependence on Imports is sure shot way of defeat IMO. They know it and will take advantage of that by hook or crook.

Not really. The only difference between imports and domestic is the amount of control we have in its future development. Other than that they all work the same way and die pretty much the same way.

FYI I’m perfectly fine with my IPhone 7, iPad 6 and HCL ME laptop with intel core 2 duo and 6 GB RAM. Don’t need IPhone 12, iPad Pro or MacBook for effectively doing my job. All I need is a certain things from my gadgets and since I can perform these tasks and use certain apps with my current devices I don’t have to chase for the Latest and greatest here. It’s futile. They will introduce the next upgrade in few time and even the iPhone 12 will be outdated technically.

That's because you are not risking your life in your work.

What if you and some guy are video editors, and both of you are asked to finish an editing task quickly, and the slower one gets shot in the head? I bet top dollar you are gonna pay top money to get the best computer possible for the job.

Same deal. You buy the best or you die when you're in the military. That's why the Americans pay 10 times more even for a smalladvantage over the enemy.

Russian weapons have historically been proven ineffective against western weapons.

All previous Indo-Pak wars were Russian/European vs American weapons. But with more Russian than European.

Most wars involving Western vs Russian weapons were fought with a generation or two gap. The Soviets exported mostly their older gen second-rung weapons. For example, even though IAF got the Mig-29 only a few years after the Soviets, the version we received was half a generation behind even the first model. There was no way for it to compete with America.

The Soviets had 3 tiers of weapons, 1st tier for themselves, 2nd tier for the Warsaw Pact and the 3rd tier (turd tier) for export. Even with a generation gap, the tier 3 was the worst offered by the Soviets, but it also became a benchmark for Soviet tech. For example, even in the 80s, the tier 1 Mig-29 could fly on its own without a pilot. In fact it was designed to eventually become an unmanned fighter as technology caught up. The pilot was only there to shoot at the enemy and get into dog fights, all other functions were left to the aircraft itself, including navigation. Even today the full capabilities of the tier 1 Mig-29 is unknown, although it's naturally irrelevant today.

Similarly, the first digital tanks on the battlefield were from the SU. And they did it in the 60s. It took the West more than 15 years to catch up with the Abrams and other 3rd gen tanks. The Soviets naturally did not export such tech ever.

Even recently The much touted Pantsir and S300 got utterly humiliated by the Israeli spike/Harpy.

No upgrades. Can't fight a Harpy if you haven't modified your radar to stop a Harpy. Later on the Syrian SAMs successfully stopped Turkish drones with proper upgrades. This is actually where the import vs domestic argument works in favour of domestic. But India doesn't suffer from that much apathy. Our imported stuff gets constant upgrades, before our enemies get similar capabilities, so we are one step ahead. That could change within the next few years in the air though, without more Rafales.

Similarly compare the performance of F16 and its Russian counterpart Mig 29 and you will understand that all the hype can’t hide the fact that in one to one engagements F16s always come out as winners.Mig 21/23/24/27 etc are just cannon fodders sold to third world or rogue countries to throw them in front of their enemies

All IAF pilots agree that the Mig-29 will slaughter the F-16 and the M2000 when you bring in performance. It's actually why it's our most important aircraft when facing the PAF. Also the reason why we are buying 21 more and upgrading them with the best missiles available.

Mig-21, 23 and 27 are 2nd and 3rd gen planes built in the 60s and 70s. Their equivalent would be the F-4 and F-5 and were pretty much similar in capability.

 

[AbRaj]

Not really. The only difference between imports and domestic is the amount of control we have in its future development. Other than that they all work the same way and die pretty much the same way.



That's because you are not risking your life in your work.

What if you and some guy are video editors, and both of you are asked to finish an editing task quickly, and the slower one gets shot in the head? I bet top dollar you are gonna pay top money to get the best computer possible for the job.

Same deal. You buy the best or you die when you're in the military. That's why the Americans pay 10 times more even for a smalladvantage over the enemy.



All previous Indo-Pak wars were Russian/European vs American weapons. But with more Russian than European.

Most wars involving Western vs Russian weapons were fought with a generation or two gap. The Soviets exported mostly their older gen second-rung weapons. For example, even though IAF got the Mig-29 only a few years after the Soviets, the version we received was half a generation behind even the first model. There was no way for it to compete with America.

The Soviets had 3 tiers of weapons, 1st tier for themselves, 2nd tier for the Warsaw Pact and the 3rd tier (turd tier) for export. Even with a generation gap, the tier 3 was the worst offered by the Soviets, but it also became a benchmark for Soviet tech. For example, even in the 80s, the tier 1 Mig-29 could fly on its own without a pilot. In fact it was designed to eventually become an unmanned fighter as technology caught up. The pilot was only there to shoot at the enemy and get into dog fights, all other functions were left to the aircraft itself, including navigation. Even today the full capabilities of the tier 1 Mig-29 is unknown, although it's naturally irrelevant today.

Similarly, the first digital tanks on the battlefield were from the SU. And they did it in the 60s. It took the West more than 15 years to catch up with the Abrams and other 3rd gen tanks. The Soviets naturally did not export such tech ever.



No upgrades. Can't fight a Harpy if you haven't modified your radar to stop a Harpy. Later on the Syrian SAMs successfully stopped Turkish drones with proper upgrades. This is actually where the import vs domestic argument works in favour of domestic. But India doesn't suffer from that much apathy. Our imported stuff gets constant upgrades, before our enemies get similar capabilities, so we are one step ahead. That could change within the next few years in the air though, without more Rafales.



All IAF pilots agree that the Mig-29 will slaughter the F-16 and the M2000 when you bring in performance. It's actually why it's our most important aircraft when facing the PAF. Also the reason why we are buying 21 more and upgrading them with the best missiles available.

Mig-21, 23 and 27 are 2nd and 3rd gen planes built in the 60s and 70s. Their equivalent would be the F-4 and F-5 and were pretty much similar in capability.

Due to typing on my phone, I can’t explain it in detail but will give my reasoning point wise with a pint of sarcasm

1. And the number and amount and of course availability and uninterrupted supply during war time. Like LGB kits during Kargil

2. Neither does the IAF. Except for the wartime, they have to do their daily routine jobs to which constitute the majority of life hours of any platform. It’s like yes you do play high graphics game at Sundays but rest of the time it’s just web browsing, conferencing or entertainment. Why you have to buy every top of the line gadgets to manage that.
And even if you have to, you don’t go shopping for moon but something that suits your budget and does the job and in minimum quantity. Rest you try to work with cheaper alternatives available.

You don’t go grocery shop in Ferrari or RR but a Wagon R can do the job of every day.
Similarly there are tasks pretty easily done by what we have like LCA,M2000,M29 or even M21 and Hawks. Why we have to import F22/35 Su57/35/Xxx or even waste Rafale for that.
Chasing American in defence spending is Idiotic considering you have economy smaller than their annual defence budget and GDP fractions of theirs. They can afford to do stupid things , we just can’t.

It’s not like since you are a graphic designer, you have to buy a SuperComputer to do your job. There are feasible alternatives to do the job.

3. And in every Indo Pak war they proved their worth, isn’t it ? They helped PA,PAF,PN fight much bigger and more resourceful enemies and came out on top on many occasions. Mainly the PAF which fought very well during 65 and 71 wars.
Agoustas were Nightmares for IN which have to take extreme precautions to avoid tragedies like INS Khukri and INS Kripan.
Similar Pattons were considered indestructible in one to one battle, only PA stupidity led their downfall
Same was the case for Starfighters and Sabres. They were miles ahead of soviet and even British counterparts IAF had.
That’s why IAF suffered high attrition and IA high casualty and frequent bogging down in war theatre .

4. It’s not like US provide F22 and B2 etc to their allies let alone customers, nor even good AAMs. They still selling AIM 120 B and C variants to their customers which is 32 year old missile.
Meanwhile Ruskis are desperate to sell their latest and greatest “Stealth Fighter” Su57 to anyone who has hard cash.
They sold their Bombers to China not to forget Su35 and S400. They are willing to sell T14 too. All are top of the line.
And this assumption that they sell degraded items is just an excuse of Russian Fanboys to justify their subpar performance in combat against Western adversaries. Some amount of degrading is done by every manufacturer to lower the cost and mass manufacturing as well as keeping tech secret. But to assume that Ruskis do it so that their customers loose the war is frankly beyond stupid.
It’s their cash Cow and they don’t want the cow to get slaughtered.

You can add a lot of other fantasies like these tier X Migs have alien tech too that’s why Even the Turks used to shoot em down without any problem whatsoever.

5. Yes like our Su are best in the world and Dodged ancient AIM 120c and ran away from the theatre instead of shooting down the aggressor F16s and WW2 era Mirages V . Raptors of the East as we know, Right?
When time came to show their superiority, the Mini AWACS of IAF tucked their tail between the legs and ran away. And got bravery medals for doing that brave thing.

It’s utterly shameful when people defend that stupidity.
And I’m sure, Mig 29s too will dodge the AIMRAAMS and will get “AMRAAM Dodgers badge” when time will come in near future in line with their bigger and more powerful sibling the mighty Su30 mki.
BTW I’m not talking about air show performance but the combat performance as a weapon system.
No doubt M29 can do tight turns and rapid ascent better than both F16 and way better then M2000 thanks to two fuel guzzling Rd 33 chimneys which smokes like anything and are more or less use and throw items.
They are also the reason M29 is reduced to a point defence fighter rather than its expected role of air superiority and interception.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Due to typing on my phone, I can’t explain it in detail but will give my reasoning point wise with a pint of sarcasm

1. And the number and amount and of course availability and uninterrupted supply during war time. Like LGB kits during Kargil

2. Neither does the IAF. Except for the wartime, they have to do their daily routine jobs to which constitute the majority of life hours of any platform. It’s like yes you do play high graphics game at Sundays but rest of the time it’s just web browsing, conferencing or entertainment. Why you have to buy every top of the line gadgets to manage that.
And even if you have to, you don’t go shopping for moon but something that suits your budget and does the job and in minimum quantity. Rest you try to work with cheaper alternatives available.

You don’t go grocery shop in Ferrari or RR but a Wagon R can do the job of every day.
Similarly there are tasks pretty easily done by what we have like LCA,M2000,M29 or even M21 and Hawks. Why we have to import F22/35 Su57/35/Xxx or even waste Rafale for that.
Chasing American in defence spending is Idiotic considering you have economy smaller than their annual defence budget and GDP fractions of theirs. They can afford to do stupid things , we just can’t.

It’s not like since you are a graphic designer, you have to buy a SuperComputer to do your job. There are feasible alternatives to do the job.

3. And in every Indo Pak war they proved their worth, isn’t it ? They helped PA,PAF,PN fight much bigger and more resourceful enemies and came out on top on many occasions. Mainly the PAF which fought very well during 65 and 71 wars.
Agoustas were Nightmares for IN which have to take extreme precautions to avoid tragedies like INS Khukri and INS Kripan.
Similar Pattons were considered indestructible in one to one battle, only PA stupidity led their downfall
Same was the case for Starfighters and Sabres. They were miles ahead of soviet and even British counterparts IAF had.
That’s why IAF suffered high attrition and IA high casualty and frequent bogging down in war theatre .

4. It’s not like US provide F22 and B2 etc to their allies let alone customers, nor even good AAMs. They still selling AIM 120 B and C variants to their customers which is 32 year old missile.
Meanwhile Ruskis are desperate to sell their latest and greatest “Stealth Fighter” Su57 to anyone who has hard cash.
They sold their Bombers to China not to forget Su35 and S400. They are willing to sell T14 too. All are top of the line.
And this assumption that they sell degraded items is just an excuse of Russian Fanboys to justify their subpar performance in combat against Western adversaries. Some amount of degrading is done by every manufacturer to lower the cost and mass manufacturing as well as keeping tech secret. But to assume that Ruskis do it so that their customers loose the war is frankly beyond stupid.
It’s their cash Cow and they don’t want the cow to get slaughtered.

You can add a lot of other fantasies like these tier X Migs have alien tech too that’s why Even the Turks used to shoot em down without any problem whatsoever.

5. Yes like our Su are best in the world and Dodged ancient AIM 120c and ran away from the theatre instead of shooting down the aggressor F16s and WW2 era Mirages V . Raptors of the East as we know, Right?
When time came to show their superiority, the Mini AWACS of IAF tucked their tail between the legs and ran away. And got bravery medals for doing that brave thing.

It’s utterly shameful when people defend that stupidity.
And I’m sure, Mig 29s too will dodge the AIMRAAMS and will get “AMRAAM Dodgers badge” when time will come in near future in line with their bigger and more powerful sibling the mighty Su30 mki.
BTW I’m not talking about air show performance but the combat performance as a weapon system.
No doubt M29 can do tight turns and rapid ascent better than both F16 and way better then M2000 thanks to two fuel guzzling Rd 33 chimneys which smokes like anything and are more or less use and throw items.
They are also the reason M29 is reduced to a point defence fighter rather than its expected role of air superiority and interception.

You are basically saying that ALL future engagements will be similar to Feb 27

NO , that is is absolutely rubbish.

You dont fight on enemy's terms

We give too much credit to PAF for Firing Amraams , Rather wasting Amraams

The same F 16s were seen running away when MiG 21 arrived on the battlefield ,And Swift Retort became
swift RETREAT

MiG 29 and Su 30 might be Fuel Guzzlers but they have endurance and loiter time , which will be necessary for Large Force Engagements

PAF is most welcome to waste all 495 Remaining Amraams

F 16s and JF 17s will have to turn back and Su 30 and MiG 29 can chase them and Fire an R 73 on their Behinds

Will they have a BARCAP in every theatre on a 24 / 7 basis

It was a BARCAP that got Abhinandan

 

[AbRaj]

You are basically saying that ALL future engagements will be similar to Feb 27

No I’m not. But it’s quite possible thanks to our over dependence on Ruskis who are now demanding our kidneys for the much needed upgrades.

NO , that is is absolutely rubbish.

You dont fight on enemy's terms

That’s what PAF did.
I’m proposing the same too. Fighting with what we have and not what we Should have.
I’m not someone who likes “Agar Rafale hota to hum Saare F16 ko uda dete”

We give too much credit to PAF for Firing Amraams , Rather wasting Amraams

BVRs or rather any weapon is made to be used whenever and however the Pilot likes it to.
Firing BVRAAMs at R max is perfectly fine strategy to force Raptors of East aka Mini AWACS to go cold and take evasive manoeuvre rather than attacking the hostile enemy aircraft . It’s perfectly justified strategy which PAF thanks to its superior training used it quite effectively on that fateful day.
IAF OTOH awarded its pilots AMRAAM Dodgers badges for not doing their expected task that is warding off the attack and chasing the hostiles away or shooting em down before they can release the payload. IAF failed spectacularly on 27.

The same F 16s were seen running away when MiG 21 arrived on the battlefield ,And Swift Retort became
swift RETREAT

They were not came here to land on Srinagar airport or doing party but to bomb the certain targets which in my opinion they did, successfully. It was all about messaging that they will retaliate and showed it to IAF despite warning them in advance.
And Mig 21 against F16 or higher is like a cat against a dog.
Mig21 is nothing but a Human strapped on a rocket.

MiG 29 and Su 30 might be Fuel Guzzlers but they have endurance and loiter time , which will be necessary for Large Force Engagements

LOL, who said they have endurance and loiter time ? It’s atrociously low.
Do you know anything about Fighter jets or just typing just for sake of it ?
If they had, IN should not have done that ugly hump thingy to increase it up to a meaningful level in its UPG upgrade.

PAF is most welcome to waste all 495 Remaining Amraams

Bhai unko Puja nahi na karni AMRAAMS ki.
Every ammunition has a definite shelf life beyond which it’s nothing more than a scrap metal.
It’s shame if IAF can’t use their weapons in desired and effective manner just to save few BVRAAMS and got its jet shot down in the process and allowed its enemy to bomb its territory terribly close to Army Depot and it’s M21 pilot getting captured in an hopeless attempt to defend its territory
Thank god Their top boss were sane enough not to use live warheads.

F 16s and JF 17s will have to turn back and Su 30 and MiG 29 can chase them and Fire an R 73 on their Behinds

Yes yes I believe you. That’s why they got R73 Dodgers badge and Group Captain Sahzazzudeen ghazi got captured in Srinagar near the wreckage of F16 BlockXXX shot down of Asian Raptors at the outskirts of Srinagar

Will they have a BARCAP in every theatre on a 24 / 7 basis

They should have and so do the IAF but the utterly incompetent IAF despite their own provocation and PAF’s warnings, sat on their collective behinds and let PAF do whatever they wanted.

It was a BARCAP that got Abhinandan

Does it really matter who got Abhi ?
He was shot down and captured by PAF/PA joint operations, was paraded in front of the blood thirsty crowd and camera to the world. All IAF could do is to show AMRAAM frags and their disappointing faces in front of Parliament building.
It was just shameful.
IAF owes Abhi an apology for sending him to fight enemy having superior quality and quantity in a WW2 relic with barely functional radar, with open easily jammable coms and inferior WVRAAM without proper Air Cover and SPJ protection.
It was a suicide mission and it was proven a suicide later on.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

No I’m not. But it’s quite possible thanks to our over dependence on Ruskis who are now demanding our kidneys for the much needed upgrades.

That’s what PAF did.
I’m proposing the same too. Fighting with what we have and not what we Should have.
I’m not someone who likes “Agar Rafale hota to hum Saare F16 ko uda dete”

BVRs or rather any weapon is made to be used whenever and however the Pilot likes it to.
Firing BVRAAMs at R max is perfectly fine strategy to force Raptors of East aka Mini AWACS to go cold and take evasive manoeuvre rather than attacking the hostile enemy aircraft . It’s perfectly justified strategy which PAF thanks to its superior training used it quite effectively on that fateful day.
IAF OTOH awarded its pilots AMRAAM Dodgers badges for not doing their expected task that is warding off the attack and chasing the hostiles away or shooting em down before they can release the payload. IAF failed spectacularly on 27.


They were not came here to land on Srinagar airport or doing party but to bomb the certain targets which in my opinion they did, successfully. It was all about messaging that they will retaliate and showed it to IAF despite warning them in advance.
And Mig 21 against F16 or higher is like a cat against a dog.
Mig21 is nothing but a Human strapped on a rocket.

LOL, who said they have endurance and loiter time ? It’s atrociously low.
Do you know anything about Fighter jets or just typing just for sake of it ?
If they had, IN should not have done that ugly hump thingy to increase it up to a meaningful level in its UPG upgrade.

Bhai unko Puja nahi na karni AMRAAMS ki.
Every ammunition has a definite shelf life beyond which it’s nothing more than a scrap metal.
It’s shame if IAF can’t use their weapons in desired and effective manner just to save few BVRAAMS and got its jet shot down in the process and allowed its enemy to bomb its territory terribly close to Army Depot and it’s M21 pilot getting captured in an hopeless attempt to defend its territory
Thank god Their top boss were sane enough not to use live warheads.

Yes yes I believe you. That’s why they got R73 Dodgers badge and Group Captain Sahzazzudeen ghazi got captured in Srinagar near the wreckage of F16 BlockXXX shot down of Asian Raptors at the outskirts of Srinagar

They should have and so do the IAF but the utterly incompetent IAF despite their own provocation and PAF’s warnings, sat on their collective behinds and let PAF do whatever they wanted.

Does it really matter who got Abhi ?
He was shot down and captured by PAF/PA joint operations, was paraded in front of the blood thirsty crowd and camera to the world. All IAF could do is to show AMRAAM frags and their disappointing faces in front of Parliament building.
It was just shameful.
IAF owes Abhi an apology for sending him to fight enemy having superior quality and quantity in a WW2 relic with barely functional radar, with open easily jammable coms and inferior WVRAAM without proper Air Cover and SPJ protection.
It was a suicide mission and it was proven a suicide later on.

Sir , I have never seen any Defence
Enthusiast with So much insecurity and So much negativity

Even if we had a Rafale For CAP at 15 K feet and 5 Amraams were fired on it from 40 K feet , the Rafale would have to take evasive action

Because that is the Tactical need of the moment

Feb 26 - 27 will not get repeated

Even Pakistan knows that , because
There is No surprise left from Pakistan' s side

On our part , we have shown to Pakistan that if they can be crazy , we are willing to cLimb the escalation ladder

Now the question is what would the next skirmish look like

Obviously it would be on a much larger scale. , Multiple fronts , All three services And yes Missiles will also be fired

For at least 2 days , it will be no holding back till US or China jumps in

With China we must expect them to interfere

Now what Really is the " Surprise" here is the Pakistan desire for Ceasefire even when China has NOT completely de escalated

Pakistan does not Expect China to really enter a war for helping Pakistan

 

[AbRaj]

Sir , I have never seen any Defence
Enthusiast with So much insecurity and So much negativity

Even if we had a Rafale For CAP at 15 K feet and 5 Amraams were fired on it from 40 K feet , the Rafale would have to take evasive action

Because that is the Tactical need of the moment

Feb 26 - 27 will not get repeated

Even Pakistan knows that , because
There is No surprise left from Pakistan' s side

On our part , we have shown to Pakistan that if they can be crazy , we are willing to cLimb the escalation ladder

Now the question is what would the next skirmish look like

Obviously it would be on a much larger scale. , Multiple fronts , All three services And yes Missiles will also be fired

For at least 2 days , it will be no holding back till US or China jumps in

With China we must expect them to interfere

Now what Really is the " Surprise" here is the Pakistan desire for Ceasefire even when China has NOT completely de escalated

Pakistan does not Expect China to really enter a war for helping Pakistan

Pardon me for being disappointed with the IAF.
Rest of Your assumptions are more of your wishes rather than based on any ground realities or logical reasoning.
I don’t believe in bragging and despise braggarts.

 

[randomradio]

Due to typing on my phone, I can’t explain it in detail but will give my reasoning point wise with a pint of sarcasm

1. And the number and amount and of course availability and uninterrupted supply during war time. Like LGB kits during Kargil

That has everything to do with your budget, companies will sell as long as you place orders.

USAF aims to double long-term JASSM production up to 10,000 units

The US Department of Defense (DoD) is increasing potential long-term production quantities of Lockheed Martin Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM) from a possible maximum of 4,900 to a possible maximum of 10,000.

www.flightglobal.com

When will Brahmos or Nirbhay ever achieve those numbers?

2. Neither does the IAF. Except for the wartime, they have to do their daily routine jobs to which constitute the majority of life hours of any platform. It’s like yes you do play high graphics game at Sundays but rest of the time it’s just web browsing, conferencing or entertainment. Why you have to buy every top of the line gadgets to manage that.
And even if you have to, you don’t go shopping for moon but something that suits your budget and does the job and in minimum quantity. Rest you try to work with cheaper alternatives available.

You've got this confused. Even if you do small stuff 90% of the time, you still need a powerful graphics card to play high end games for the remaining 10%, so you have to make the investment anyway. So your argument actually supports my point.

Anyway, the point of doing those daily routine jobs is to prepare for war. If you don't have a powerful graphics card to practice your gaming with, you can't play at all during the tournament.

No such thing called "suits your budget". The only options are to buy expensive stuff and fight, or just avoid a fight.

Again, if your life is on the line and the only way to survive is to spend money, what are you going to do?

You don’t go grocery shop in Ferrari or RR but a Wagon R can do the job of every day.
Similarly there are tasks pretty easily done by what we have like LCA,M2000,M29 or even M21 and Hawks. Why we have to import F22/35 Su57/35/Xxx or even waste Rafale for that.

Because war is not grocery shopping.

They can afford to do stupid things , we just can’t.

Yes, we can. Through imports. Until we can become rich enough to do stupid things on our own.

Warfare is one of the most cruel things people can do to each other. There are no half-measures.

It’s not like since you are a graphic designer, you have to buy a SuperComputer to do your job. There are feasible alternatives to do the job.

Depends on whether your life is on the line or not. If it's a competition, then you have no choice.

3. And in every Indo Pak war they proved their worth, isn’t it ? They helped PA,PAF,PN fight much bigger and more resourceful enemies and came out on top on many occasions. Mainly the PAF which fought very well during 65 and 71 wars.
Agoustas were Nightmares for IN which have to take extreme precautions to avoid tragedies like INS Khukri and INS Kripan.
Similar Pattons were considered indestructible in one to one battle, only PA stupidity led their downfall
Same was the case for Starfighters and Sabres. They were miles ahead of soviet and even British counterparts IAF had.
That’s why IAF suffered high attrition and IA high casualty and frequent bogging down in war theatre .

IAF suffered high attrition and casualties because the IAF actually flew during the war, and also flew very dangerous missions. In 1971, PAF simply went and hid after a point.

4. It’s not like US provide F22 and B2 etc to their allies let alone customers, nor even good AAMs. They still selling AIM 120 B and C variants to their customers which is 32 year old missile.

We are not competing with the US or its allies anyway.

Meanwhile Ruskis are desperate to sell their latest and greatest “Stealth Fighter” Su57 to anyone who has hard cash.
They sold their Bombers to China not to forget Su35 and S400. They are willing to sell T14 too. All are top of the line.
And this assumption that they sell degraded items is just an excuse of Russian Fanboys to justify their subpar performance in combat against Western adversaries. Some amount of degrading is done by every manufacturer to lower the cost and mass manufacturing as well as keeping tech secret. But to assume that Ruskis do it so that their customers loose the war is frankly beyond stupid.
It’s their cash Cow and they don’t want the cow to get slaughtered.

You should read up on SU's weapons exports history. The term "monkey model" was specifically invented for their export grade crap. Would recommend googling that term. Today's Russia is a bit different, but they still keep the best for themselves. Their export grade T-14 and Su-57 are different from what they themselves operate.

The Soviets sold weapons to third world countries to fight other third world countries, not NATO. If Iraq operated F-16s instead of Migs, they would still have got slaughtered by NATO. It has nothing to do with one single weapons system.

You can add a lot of other fantasies like these tier X Migs have alien tech too that’s why Even the Turks used to shoot em down without any problem whatsoever.

5. Yes like our Su are best in the world and Dodged ancient AIM 120c and ran away from the theatre instead of shooting down the aggressor F16s and WW2 era Mirages V . Raptors of the East as we know, Right?
When time came to show their superiority, the Mini AWACS of IAF tucked their tail between the legs and ran away. And got bravery medals for doing that brave thing.

Some of you guys here have been successfully brainwashed by Pak propaganda. I don't get it at all. After the skirmish, the IAF established full air supremacy over Kashmir. I don't get how you guys don't understand such a simple thing. Full and complete air supremacy, to the point where we had our Herons flying inside Pakistani air space and they could do nothing about it.

Air supremacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Air supremacy is a degree of air superiority where a side holds complete control of air power over opposing forces.

Which self-respecting air force withdraws and disappears from an air space completely after "winning"?

It’s utterly shameful when people defend that stupidity.
And I’m sure, Mig 29s too will dodge the AIMRAAMS and will get “AMRAAM Dodgers badge” when time will come in near future in line with their bigger and more powerful sibling the mighty Su30 mki.

Total air supremacy. Dunno how you call air supremacy "stupid". We were killing the PA on the ground while flying inside their airspace.

BTW I’m not talking about air show performance but the combat performance as a weapon system.
No doubt M29 can do tight turns and rapid ascent better than both F16 and way better then M2000 thanks to two fuel guzzling Rd 33 chimneys which smokes like anything and are more or less use and throw items.
They are also the reason M29 is reduced to a point defence fighter rather than its expected role of air superiority and interception.

Even the avionics are better than what's on PAF's F-16s right now. Like the AESA jammer and B-NET SDR. Then there's the Topsight HMDS. They have none of these.

The RD-33 Mk3 is completely different from the engine you've heard of.

Most of the information you have presented in this post is either based on propaganda or is simply outdated.

 

[Hydra]

Some of you guys here have been successfully brainwashed by Pak propaganda. I don't get it at all. After the skirmish, the IAF established full air supremacy over Kashmir. I don't get how you guys don't understand such a simple thing. Full and complete air supremacy, to the point where we had our Herons flying inside Pakistani air space and they could do nothing about it.

Air supremacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Air supremacy is a degree of air superiority where a side holds complete control of air power over opposing forces.

Which self-respecting air force withdraws and disappears from an air space completely after "winning"?



Total air supremacy. Dunno how you call air supremacy "stupid". We were killing the PA on the ground while flying inside their airspace.



Even the avionics are better than what's on PAF's F-16s right now. Like the AESA jammer and B-NET SDR. Then there's the Topsight HMDS. They have none of these.

The RD-33 Mk3 is completely different from the engine you've heard of.

Most of the information you have presented in this post is either based on propaganda or is simply outdated.

Whats the point in achieving air supremacy over a homeland during peace time? I dont think its a big deal. On that unfortunate day 3 things has happened which destroyed IAF's reputation
1) PAF dropped bomb inside indian military complex
2)They shoot down an IAF aircraft
3) They keep away mki from engaging their f106.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Whats the point in achieving air supremacy over a homeland during peace time? I dont think its a big deal. On that unfortunate day 3 things has happened which destroyed IAF's reputation
1) PAF dropped bomb inside indian military complex
2)They shoot down an IAF aircraft
3) They keep away mki from engaging their f106.

When you dont have a war for 40 years , some mistakes and defects will creep in your SOPs and ROEs

That is what happened with MI 17

But what will be achieved by crying

We have to live and learn and keep moving forward

And former Chief Dhanoa said that since their bombs did not explode there was no.damage on Indian side

And hence there were no retaliatory air strikes

But the biggest question is why do we keep talking of our dissatisfaction with Feb 27 , With Pakistan we will have many more opportunities to rub their face in dirt

We should be happy that our acquisition and modernisation process has speeded up

 

[thinkingcap81]

Some of you guys here have been successfully brainwashed by Pak propaganda. I don't get it at all. After the skirmish, the IAF established full air supremacy over Kashmir. I don't get how you guys don't understand such a simple thing. Full and complete air supremacy, to the point where we had our Herons flying inside Pakistani air space and they could do nothing about it.

Is there any definitive proof that we kept going across LoC with impunity? In late 2019 at least on one day an MKI flew many times over the skies of Jammu. I heard later from a father of an Army officer that an F16 had ingressed. He also told me that no F16 went down on 27 Feb. It is another matter whether this person had authentic information.

 

[randomradio]

Whats the point in achieving air supremacy over a homeland during peace time? I dont think its a big deal. On that unfortunate day 3 things has happened which destroyed IAF's reputation

It actually is a big deal. It's the greatest objective for all air forces.

1) PAF dropped bomb inside indian military complex

Nobody can stop that. Not even the USAF.

Also, they failed.

2)They shoot down an IAF aircraft

Nobody can stop that from happening if a pilot decides to rambo an entire air force. Let's not forget he shot down a plane as well.

3) They keep away mki from engaging their f106.

Er... The F-16s simply came in, fired their missiles and ran away. There was nothing more for the MKI to do after that.

If you understand what the job of a CAP is, you will understand that the MKIs accomplished their job. Since war wasn't declared, a lot of other options which are available to the MKIs cannot be exercised.

Is there any definitive proof that we kept going across LoC with impunity? In late 2019 at least on one day an MKI flew many times over the skies of Jammu. I heard later from a father of an Army officer that an F16 had ingressed. He also told me that no F16 went down on 27 Feb. It is another matter whether this person had authentic information.

2 aircraft went down that day. 3 parachutes were observed.

 

[AbRaj]

That has everything to do with your budget, companies will sell as long as you place orders.

And we don’t have unlimited oil money to throw billions for every problem. And companies and govts can make you hostage during war time make no mistake.

USAF aims to double long-term JASSM production up to 10,000 units

The US Department of Defense (DoD) is increasing potential long-term production quantities of Lockheed Martin Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM) from a possible maximum of 4,900 to a possible maximum of 10,000.

www.flightglobal.com

When will Brahmos or Nirbhay ever achieve those numbers?

True. But again why do we need all the best weapons available on earth to fight with Chinease who are still flying F7Ps and PGs and a host of another vintage aircrafts or Pakees who are flying JFs and Mirage Vs ?

You've got this confused. Even if you do small stuff 90% of the time, you still need a powerful graphics card to play high end games for the remaining 10%, so you have to make the investment anyway. So your argument actually supports my point.

No I don’t. I never said you should not by necessory subsystems like Graphic Card which in this scenario can be compared to buying SPJ pods, Jammers, Radars or Weapons etc.
What you are advising is buying a new PC because my current PC has older Graphic card which cant handle heavy tasks.
Please understand

Anyway, the point of doing those daily routine jobs is to prepare for war. If you don't have a powerful graphics card to practice your gaming with, you can't play at all during the tournament.

Explained above

No such thing called "suits your budget". The only options are to buy expensive stuff and fight, or just avoid a fight.

Disagree entirely. War will not come at a time you like. Chasing Expensive stuffs like Rafale and Typhoon has made our squadron streangth dwingling to uncomfortably low level and forced us to still fly Mig21, Jaguars and other cold war relics. We should’ve retired all of them by now had we went for something like M2000 or F16 few instead of going for small batches watch of M2000, Mig 28, Mig 23, Jaguars etc.

Again, if your life is on the line and the only way to survive is to spend money, what are you going to do?

No its not. Money is not panacea for everything. Smart and judicious use of resources is what one need.
Few Imports are ok, bit to built your entire defences on imported stuff is madness.

Because war is not grocery shopping.

IAF had not gone for war since decades.
There was ample time to develop our own stuff , had we seriously tried instead of politically motivated imports from Russia,UK , US , France etc.
Unfortunately we are still doing political balancing by importing weapons from Russia and US.

Yes, we can. Through imports. Until we can become rich enough to do stupid things on our own.

Again disagree. We are a poor country with huge poverty and unemployment. We just cant waste resources on unnecessary imports.

Warfare is one of the most cruel things people can do to each other. There are no half-measures.

Nothing cruel about warfare IMO. Its an art one has to learn to gain something.
If its counterproductive, no point going to war.

Depends on whether your life is on the line or not. If it's a competition, then you have no choice.

There are always choices for fighting war or competition, You just have to explore carefully.

IAF suffered high attrition and casualties because the IAF actually flew during the war, and also flew very dangerous missions. In 1971, PAF simply went and hid after a point.

Agreed. But its just partial truth. Fact is IAF lost a huge number of assets during per-emptive strikes from PAF including then top of the line Mig 21 on the ground due to lack of early warning radars and proper air defences. This is what un necessory wastage of resources brings to the table.

We are not competing with the US or its allies anyway.

All the potent Pakee weapons are US or western origin. So yes we do.

You should read up on SU's weapons exports history. The term "monkey model" was specifically invented for their export grade crap. Would recommend googling that term. Today's Russia is a bit different, but they still keep the best for themselves. Their export grade T-14 and Su-57 are different from what they themselves operate.

Look I cant claim that I’m an expert in these stuff. But to me its all look unproven bogus claims. Its just illogical to even do that anyway.

If Iraq operated F-16s instead of Migs, they would still have got slaughtered by NATO. It has nothing to do with one single weapons system.

I doubt that. Look at Iran-Iraq war and few other countries like Tirkey, Egypt, Jordan, Greece etc are also operating F16 I believe and they are doing Ok.
BTW isn’t it more logical to pit Migs and Sukhois against a Force with F16s in its inventory ?

Some of you guys here have been successfully brainwashed by Pak propaganda. I don't get it at all. After the skirmish, the IAF established full air supremacy over Kashmir. I don't get how you guys don't understand such a simple thing. Full and complete air supremacy, to the point where we had our Herons flying inside Pakistani air space and they could do nothing about it.

I was specifically taking abt 27 feb. not 26 or 28. Obviously after a point IAF will achieve air dominance over PAF due to huge disparity in quantity like what happened in all previous wars.
After initial few episodes of raids and bombing the FOBs, PAF used to retreat deep into Balochistan and even Iran and only did limited interception duties.

BTW I don’t read too much into that drone strike (or whatever it was) anyway.

Even the avionics are better than what's on PAF's F-16s right now. Like the AESA jammer and B-NET SDR. Then there's the Topsight HMDS. They have none of these.

But they have better range, weapon load, reliability, weapon choices and better weapons overall. They also have SPJs with better networking and data link with proper coverage of AWACS. Migs are terrible at networking due to our hotch potch of procurements.

The RD-33 Mk3 is completely different from the engine you've heard of.

Still I don’t believe its on par with western Engines. Migs are still crashing due to poor tolerance of engines to Foreign objects.

Most of the information you have presented in this post is either based on propaganda or is simply outdated.

I’m not claiming my information is accurate.
But its roughly what I have read or understood over time.

 

[randomradio]

And we don’t have unlimited oil money to throw billions for every problem. And companies and govts can make you hostage during war time make no mistake.

True. But again why do we need all the best weapons available on earth to fight with Chinease who are still flying F7Ps and PGs and a host of another vintage aircrafts or Pakees who are flying JFs and Mirage Vs ?



No I don’t. I never said you should not by necessory subsystems like Graphic Card which in this scenario can be compared to buying SPJ pods, Jammers, Radars or Weapons etc.
What you are advising is buying a new PC because my current PC has older Graphic card which cant handle heavy tasks.
Please understand

Explained above

Disagree entirely. War will not come at a time you like. Chasing Expensive stuffs like Rafale and Typhoon has made our squadron streangth dwingling to uncomfortably low level and forced us to still fly Mig21, Jaguars and other cold war relics. We should’ve retired all of them by now had we went for something like M2000 or F16 few instead of going for small batches watch of M2000, Mig 28, Mig 23, Jaguars etc.


No its not. Money is not panacea for everything. Smart and judicious use of resources is what one need.
Few Imports are ok, bit to built your entire defences on imported stuff is madness.

IAF had not gone for war since decades.
There was ample time to develop our own stuff , had we seriously tried instead of politically motivated imports from Russia,UK , US , France etc.
Unfortunately we are still doing political balancing by importing weapons from Russia and US.

Again disagree. We are a poor country with huge poverty and unemployment. We just cant waste resources on unnecessary imports.

Nothing cruel about warfare IMO. Its an art one has to learn to gain something.
If its counterproductive, no point going to war.

There are always choices for fighting war or competition, You just have to explore carefully.

Agreed. But its just partial truth. Fact is IAF lost a huge number of assets during per-emptive strikes from PAF including then top of the line Mig 21 on the ground due to lack of early warning radars and proper air defences. This is what un necessory wastage of resources brings to the table.

All the potent Pakee weapons are US or western origin. So yes we do.

Look I cant claim that I’m an expert in these stuff. But to me its all look unproven bogus claims. Its just illogical to even do that anyway.

I doubt that. Look at Iran-Iraq war and few other countries like Tirkey, Egypt, Jordan, Greece etc are also operating F16 I believe and they are doing Ok.
BTW isn’t it more logical to pit Migs and Sukhois against a Force with F16s in its inventory ?

I was specifically taking abt 27 feb. not 26 or 28. Obviously after a point IAF will achieve air dominance over PAF due to huge disparity in quantity like what happened in all previous wars.
After initial few episodes of raids and bombing the FOBs, PAF used to retreat deep into Balochistan and even Iran and only did limited interception duties.

BTW I don’t read too much into that drone strike (or whatever it was) anyway.

But they have better range, weapon load, reliability, weapon choices and better weapons overall. They also have SPJs with better networking and data link with proper coverage of AWACS. Migs are terrible at networking due to our hotch potch of procurements.

Still I don’t believe its on par with western Engines. Migs are still crashing due to poor tolerance of engines to Foreign objects.

I’m not claiming my information is accurate.
But its roughly what I have read or understood over time.

Too much propaganda and denial of history.

The Rafales are needed simply because, frankly, our air force is useless right now. Especially when dealing with a China 5 years from now. They will soon begin absorbing 50 J-20s a year at the minimum. Today only the Rafale can give us parity against China and overkill against PAF.

We never had ample time to develop anything that was world class. We are only beginning now as we get money for the R&D effort. Only rich countries can make world class products.

Our 1971 air war with PAF went really well.

But they have better range, weapon load, reliability, weapon choices and better weapons overall. They also have SPJs with better networking and data link with proper coverage of AWACS. Migs are terrible at networking due to our hotch potch of procurements.

Nothing is correct here. While the F-16 has some of those things, the PAF F-16 doesn't. They used Chinese and South African weapons to attack our bases using JF-17 and Mirage because they don't have these advanced weapon choices from the US. Our Mig-29s today are the best networked jet in the whole world due to the B-NET. Even the USAF doesn't have this yet. Even without B-NET, our Mig-29s were better networked than PAF jets, all connected to the Phalcon, which the PAF have no equivalent of.

Still I don’t believe its on par with western Engines. Migs are still crashing due to poor tolerance of engines to Foreign objects.

They are doing fine. Too much misinformation surrounding it. In fact, no one has questioned Russian engine's reliability, which is why even the PAF is happy with just 1 Mig-29 engine for the JF-17. The problem for Russian engines is service life and more maintenance. Other than that they are actually more fuel efficient than American engines and generate about the same amount of thrust to weight.

Any single-engine aircraft will crash due to bird hit. India is a tropical country with more birds and of larger size than in other countries. And all major air forces are from temperate regions. Plus most of our air bases are located inside our unclean cities, which attract birds.

BTW isn’t it more logical to pit Migs and Sukhois against a Force with F16s in its inventory ?

The PAF's F-16 is nothing. The J-10C and J-20 are far, far more deadly because of new gen avionics and weapons. PAF is still stuck in the 90s.

Again disagree. We are a poor country with huge poverty and unemployment. We just cant waste resources on unnecessary imports.

That's why we shouldn't fight wars in the first place. And to avoid fighting wars, we need deterrence. And deterrence only comes by making the military as strong as possible. Right now our air force is trash compared to our main enemy's. We only have some small advantages which we like to hype up for propaganda purposes. Which is why I keep pushing for a silver bullet force in order to delay any potential war until we become rich enough to actually play power games. China managed to do that for 40 years and are still following the same policy, possibly for at least 5 more years before they take action somewhere. We should do it for 10 at the minimum, because I doubt China will allow more time than that.

BTW I don’t read too much into that drone strike (or whatever it was) anyway.

You should. It was artillery strikes using drone spotters. It's stuff like this that slaughtered the Armenians recently. And PAF couldn't do anything when we did the same to the PA. Our drones went unchallenged over LoC and beyond because the PAF had retreated. The video I posted earlier is proof of that. It's a very big deal.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

The Rafales are needed simply because, frankly, our air force is useless right now. Especially when dealing with a China 5 years from now. They will soon begin absorbing 50 J-20s a year at the minimum. Today only the Rafale can give us parity against China and overkill against PAF

In that case , there is No point in waiting for F4 version of Rafale

We should at least go for 18 more F3R

Or else we will be forced to deploy All 36 against China

By the way have you heard of a Recent Upgrade of SU 30 which was evaluated by the Chief himself

What do you think , It might be , Any Guess

 

[Hydra]

It actually is a big deal. It's the greatest objective for all air forces.



Nobody can stop that. Not even the USAF.

Also, they failed.



Nobody can stop that from happening if a pilot decides to rambo an entire air force. Let's not forget he shot down a plane as well.



Er... The F-16s simply came in, fired their missiles and ran away. There was nothing more for the MKI to do after that.

If you understand what the job of a CAP is, you will understand that the MKIs accomplished their job. Since war wasn't declared, a lot of other options which are available to the MKIs cannot be exercised.

2 aircraft went down that day. 3 parachutes were observed.

From where did that video has captured, I mean by staying inside Indian side airspace or POK?

 

[Hydra]

Too much propaganda and denial of history.

The Rafales are needed simply because, frankly, our air force is useless right now. Especially when dealing with a China 5 years from now. They will soon begin absorbing 50 J-20s a year at the minimum. Today only the Rafale can give us parity against China and overkill against PAF.

We never had ample time to develop anything that was world class. We are only beginning now as we get money for the R&D effort. Only rich countries can make world class products.

Our 1971 air war with PAF went really well.



Nothing is correct here. While the F-16 has some of those things, the PAF F-16 doesn't. They used Chinese and South African weapons to attack our bases using JF-17 and Mirage because they don't have these advanced weapon choices from the US. Our Mig-29s today are the best networked jet in the whole world due to the B-NET. Even the USAF doesn't have this yet. Even without B-NET, our Mig-29s were better networked than PAF jets, all connected to the Phalcon, which the PAF have no equivalent of.



They are doing fine. Too much misinformation surrounding it. In fact, no one has questioned Russian engine's reliability, which is why even the PAF is happy with just 1 Mig-29 engine for the JF-17. The problem for Russian engines is service life and more maintenance. Other than that they are actually more fuel efficient than American engines and generate about the same amount of thrust to weight.

Any single-engine aircraft will crash due to bird hit. India is a tropical country with more birds and of larger size than in other countries. And all major air forces are from temperate regions. Plus most of our air bases are located inside our unclean cities, which attract birds.



The PAF's F-16 is nothing. The J-10C and J-20 are far, far more deadly because of new gen avionics and weapons. PAF is still stuck in the 90s.



That's why we shouldn't fight wars in the first place. And to avoid fighting wars, we need deterrence. And deterrence only comes by making the military as strong as possible. Right now our air force is trash compared to our main enemy's. We only have some small advantages which we like to hype up for propaganda purposes. Which is why I keep pushing for a silver bullet force in order to delay any potential war until we become rich enough to actually play power games. China managed to do that for 40 years and are still following the same policy, possibly for at least 5 more years before they take action somewhere. We should do it for 10 at the minimum, because I doubt China will allow more time than that.



You should. It was artillery strikes using drone spotters. It's stuff like this that slaughtered the Armenians recently. And PAF couldn't do anything when we did the same to the PA. Our drones went unchallenged over LoC and beyond because the PAF had retreated. The video I posted earlier is proof of that. It's a very big deal.

So praween Sawhney's assumption of a full scale arrack by china is a reality. But according to him Chinese attack will happen before 2024-25 time frame.

 

[Hydra]

It will work to a certain extent. But the J-20 will be able to use its stealth to kill the MKI silently. You can't jam something that's not emitting radar signals in the first place.

How Rafale will deal with j20 future variants then? J20 being a true stealth aircraft will have advantages over rafales then.

In that case , there is No point in waiting for F4 version of Rafale

We should at least go for 18 more F3R

Or else we will be forced to deploy All 36 against China

By the way have you heard of a Recent Upgrade of SU 30 which was evaluated by the Chief himself

What do you think , It might be , Any Guess

We should order 54 Rafale urgently and rest of the numbers should be managed with f4 variants or f15EX.